horsemen dont upgrade to knights?

[Infiltrator]

I just think light cav could use a more nuanced role than what we have at the moment - better flanking bonuses for sure. Knights have the raw strenght to pull through two eras but it's really hard to make light cav work through both medieval and renaissance because the differences become less improtant the more you advance through the ages.

 

[MistyRonin]

But these jobs are most unimportant in the game from the medieval and out. Its not like you need roconnaissance when each normal unit can see enemies a hundred miles in any direction, and pillaging is only good early on. Communication is definitively something you don't need.

The thought may have been good, get some more options in combat, but leaving such huge gaps between unit upgrades is way too flawed execution. It has to be changed, or the heavy line removed.

Ok, so your point was not that the lack upgrades between era makes them useless. But that in your opinion the light cavalry class is not useful in the game and should be removed. Is that right?


So far, in my Civ VI games I have used them mainly for recon with high success, so I disagree, as they have been useful when used properly. For instance helicopters that fly inside enemy territory so my artillery and bombers can see where to attack. I also used them for small raids or against weak units, while my heavy cavalry took care of the strong-points.

 

[criZp]

Ok, so your point was not that the lack upgrades between era makes them useless. But that in your opinion the light cavalry class is not useful in the game and should be removed. Is that right?

No, the point is they're useless AND they should be removed.

 

[Browd]

No, the point is they're useless AND they should be removed.

Removed because you find them useless? Interesting... Perhaps an easier solution would be for you to simply refrain from building them.

 

[criZp]

Removed because you find them useless?

Not the units. The light/heavy split.

 

[Nefelia]

I couldn't disagree more. The spacing between the units encourages you to use multiple unit types since they come at different times and makes unit counters more important.

Agreed. I was initially surprised that my Horsemen did not upgrade to Knights, but given the difference in build time/cost, strength, and maintenance, I just rolled with it.

Disagree, encouraging different units should come from the different units' strenghts and weaknesses themselves, not from having a good portion of your units be useless for large parts of the game

The Horsemen have 4 movement points and 35 strength. That is not enough to go toe to toe with the heavy hitters of the Medieval Era, but it is enough for the unit to hold its own against all but the Pikemen.

But these jobs are most unimportant in the game from the medieval and out. Its not like you need roconnaissance when each normal unit can see enemies a hundred miles in any direction, and pillaging is only good early on. Communication is definitively something you don't need.

Used for the Horsemen:
- circling around the main host and sniping catapults
- fortifying along re-supply routes and between cities to impede fresh reinforcements
- drawing fire away from other units
- picking off heavily injured units

The Horseman can take damage and retreat to safety more easily than other units. If you are not taking advantage of this to maximize the effectiveness of your war efforts, then I recommend you start.

 

[lamaros]

I just think light cav could use a more nuanced role than what we have at the moment - better flanking bonuses for sure. Knights have the raw strenght to pull through two eras but it's really hard to make light cav work through both medieval and renaissance because the differences become less improtant the more you advance through the ages.

I think they're ok, I'd say use them to replace scouts once you're not getting anything in battle from them.

 

[Lord Shadow]

I agree that there are too many unit classes, and they create large gaps which leave units without upgrades for entire eras. A few examples:

• Musketmen upgrade to Infantry, and have no intermediate Industrial step. Where's the Rifleman?
• Horsemen don't upgrade till Cavalry enters the scene, (at least?) 2 eras after the former's inception.
• Knights don't upgrade at any point until the Modern Era, once Tanks are unlocked. They essentially go by a thousand years without an upgrade. A Cuirassier would be a good middle ground.
• If I remember correctly, the Bombard upgrades to Artillery, left out to dry for the entire Industrial Era.
• Quadriremes only upgrade once the Frigate appears, like 3 eras later.

The list goes on. Too many gaps, all over the place. It's one of the reasons the AI has trouble upgrading their armies (too scarce strategic resources being the other). I don't know how anyone could tell me they're OK with this with a straight face.

I appreciate what they were trying to do, but there's just not enough units for so many sub-roles. At the very least they should allow most units to optionally upgrade to the other sub-role (i.e. Warrior -> Pikeman, Knight -> Cavalry), but that's not enough to fix just how wrong the current execution feels.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Both cav classes ignore zones of control. The only difference is the promotion trees.

Cav don't have any combat bonuses without promotion unlike infantry classes, they instead ignore ZOC and are generally more mobile.

 

[UWHabs]

Maybe the point is to just delete them once they're past their due? You can keep a couple units around, but otherwise probably best to delete them, switch to the new policy giving a production bonus later, and then rebuild the military.

 

[Infiltrator]

I agree that there are too many unit classes, and they create large gaps which leave units without upgrades for entire eras. A few examples:

• Musketmen upgrade to Infantry, and have no intermediate Industrial step. Where's the Rifleman?
• Horsemen don't upgrade till Cavalry enters the scene, (at least?) 2 eras after the former's inception.
• Knights don't upgrade at any point until the Modern Era, once Tanks are unlocked. They essentially go by a thousand years without an upgrade. A Cuirassier would be a good middle ground.
• If I remember correctly, the Bombard upgrades to Artillery, left out to dry for the entire Industrial Era.
• Quadriremes only upgrade once the Frigate appears, like 3 eras later.

The list goes on. Too many gaps, all over the place. It's one of the reasons the AI has trouble upgrading their armies (too scarce strategic resources being the other). I don't know how anyone could tell me they're OK with this with a straight face.

I appreciate what they were trying to do, but there's just not enough units for so many sub-roles. At the very least they should allow most units to optionally upgrade to the other sub-role (i.e. Warrior -> Pikeman, Knight -> Cavalry), but that's not enough to fix just how wrong the current execution feels.

It's not the same for everyone though, knights can hold their own until they become tanks, but horsemen have strength on par with some ancient era units which makes it much harder for them to endure to the industrial age.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

It was kinda funny when I played an Immortal Stand Stand game yesterday and had something like 30-40 horses running around in the Medieval and Industrial Eras but no worries the AI couldn't even come close to handling the swarms!

 

[killmeplease]

horsemen hit and run can be quite useful to soften or finish enemies and move back
maybe they should also be given +10 vs archers and cannons

 

[Lord Shadow]

It's not the same for everyone though, knights can hold their own until they become tanks, but horsemen have strength on par with some ancient era units which makes it much harder for them to endure to the industrial age.

The Horseman's case is more egregious, but the Knight loses its edge (and hard-hitting is supposedly the point of heavy cavalry) as soon as the Musketman appears (55 strength vs. the former's 48).

 

[Frank327]

Due to how slowly the AI upgrades its units right now, heavy cavalry are easier to make work than light cavalry. Also they don't need 2 horses or encampment to build. And because of having just 1 upkeep, you can get an army of them with 0 upkeep with conscription. And then you can upgrade to Knights and win some wars.

But I agree the gaps are too big. It's not just a problem with cavalry. Roman legions (/swordsmen) also upgrade to musketman which makes for a gap of around 1500 years if tech wouldn't go so insanely fast.