The Force should go back to sleep permanently

[warpus]

I did, and

1. not everything has to be explained away and
2. the audience doesn't need to be told that it will be explained eventually or that it doesn't. just go with it, man

 

[BvBPL]

Well, that can all be explained away by improving technology. It only makes sense that navigational systems would become more sophisticated over time (especially since space travel is so important). So perhaps by the time of TFA, space travel IS just like a short drive across town because navigational computers have become good enough to do all those calculations precisely and safely with minimal input from the crew.

Actually no, it doesn’t, at least not in a galaxy far, far away.


Technology in Star Wars has always been portrayed as stagnate. The level of technological development in KotOR is not so different from that portrayed in the films, films that are set some four thousand years in the future.


Four thousand years ago, we were first taming horses.


Given the slow rate of development over four thousand years, it seems unlikely that there would be a significant development in the time between “My Shorna” and “Uptown Funk.”

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I did, and

1. not everything has to be explained away and
2. the audience doesn't need to be told that it will be explained eventually or that it doesn't. just go with it, man

If you did, then why did you

1. Say "not everything has to be presented to us in a year by year format", as if I had said that it did, when I'd just said completely the opposite.
2. Ignore the fact that I'd already said that we don't need to be told these things, but that there's still a good way to not tell us - such as the missing backstory for Kylo Ren and what happened to Luke... as I've already said.

 

[warpus]

Let me try to reword everything I've said up until this point, so things don't get more confusing. Okay so, ignore all my previous posts, and let's get back to this thing you said:

.. they'd written it in a way which makes it clear to the audience that you don't need to understand it all up front and it will be explained later (like I already said). But it's not presented in that sort of way, the tone of the film is as if it should all just make sense.

That's a very common way of dropping a user right into a story, though. They presume that the audience understands that the parts that need to be explained will be explained in due time, and the things that don't make sense yet, don't make sense for a reason.

The scrolling paragraphs at the beginning of each Star Wars movie set the scene. They are usually brief and vague. I think it would have been a mistake to include exact details of what has happened in the past 30 years or whatever nor do I see how you could start a movie off with the sense that things don't make sense. Seems logical that the tone is going to be that everything makes perfect sense, but that the audience is not in on all the details yet (and/or ever).

 

[Hygro]

They did start us in Episode 4 as if we already had seen the first three.

 

[Ajidica]

They did start us in Episode 4 as if we already had seen the first three.

Really?
The intro text said all we need to know: The Evil Empire is fighting a bunch of Good Rebels, Leia is part of the Good Rebels with plans for the Evil Empire's DOOM MACHINE. The first five minutes establish that yes, the Good Rebels are Good and the Evil Empire is Evil.

There was no need to "read the books" to understand how the seemingly defeated Empire was in fact strong enough to build a planetary DOOM MACHINE that even the Evil Empire never bothered with.

 

[Commodore]

When watching episode 3 my reaction was "oh... so they've just skipped the entire Clone Wars, that's a bit crap. And who/what the hell is General Grievous?".

Nah, they didn't skip over the Clone Wars. That was all covered in the Clone Wars animated shorts that aired on Cartoon Network before Revenge of the Sith came out. Those shorts were supposed to give you the highlights of the Clone Wars and give a little bit of an origin story for General Grievous. In fact, the last episode of the animated shorts ends right where Episode 3 starts. But alas, Disney has declared that series to be non-canon now, and only the CGI Clone Wars cartoon is now canon.

However, I still say that original Clone Wars cartoon is canon by association, regardless of what Disney says. My reasoning is that the events of that cartoon series are referenced in Episode 3, which is undoubtedly canon since it is one of the major films. And if something is referenced in a canon source, then the thing being referenced must also be, by extension, canon as well. Plus, it's not like Disney specifically said "this series is no longer canon", they just didn't include it in the list of canon material. I'll chalk that up to Disney just being a little forgetful in its old age and just didn't remember to put that series on the list.

 

[Lexicus]

However, I still say that original Clone Wars cartoon is canon by association, regardless of what Disney says.

Headcanon ftw!

 

[Commodore]

Headcanon ftw!

Exactly. Headcanon logic is undeniable.

 

[Hygro]

Really?
The intro text said all we need to know: The Evil Empire is fighting a bunch of Good Rebels, Leia is part of the Good Rebels with plans for the Evil Empire's DOOM MACHINE. The first five minutes establish that yes, the Good Rebels are Good and the Evil Empire is Evil.

There was no need to "read the books" to understand how the seemingly defeated Empire was in fact strong enough to build a planetary DOOM MACHINE that even the Evil Empire never bothered with.

Sure, but in 2015 we're even faster minded than 1977; they decided we can surmise that There Is A Reason.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Headcanon ftw!

Headcanon is basically how I do everything as there really isn't much more to being a consumer of art. If an author (in the Barthes/Foucault sense of the word) releases a text that I feel is not only bad, but actively harmful to narratively or thematically connected prior texts, I simply toss out the new text and act as though it never happened. I decided a couple years ago to operate as though the prequel films never happened and I've never looked back since. Thankfully doing the same for The Cursed Child is proving far easier seeing as how everybody's already basically forgotten it exists.

 

[Commodore]

I actually liked the prequels. Sure the acting was awful and the dialogue was poorly written, but I thought the overall narrative of the rise of Palpatine and the Empire was pretty good. The execution of Order 66 also hit me pretty hard in the feels. Especially Ki Adi Mundi's death.

Oh, that look he gets on his face when he realizes he's been betrayed by his own troops is just heartbreaking.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Nah, they didn't skip over the Clone Wars. That was all covered in the Clone Wars animated shorts that aired on Cartoon Network before Revenge of the Sith came out.

Yes exactly. It wasn't in the films, ergo they skipped over it.

 

[schlaufuchs]

I actually liked the prequels. Sure the acting was awful and the dialogue was poorly written, but I thought the overall narrative of the rise of Palpatine and the Empire was pretty good. The execution of Order 66 also hit me pretty hard in the feels. Especially Ki Adi Mundi's death.

Oh, that look he gets on his face when he realizes he's been betrayed by his own troops is just heartbreaking.

Not only were they a visual bore, which I can and have talked at length about. A text simply being bad usually doesn't warrant a purge from my canon. The reason why the prequels do not exist to me is that their existence negatively affects my enjoyment and appreciation for the original trilogy. Yoda, discussion about the force and its nature, explanations about who the Jedi Knights were and what their purpose and importance was, Obi-Wan, pretty much any time Anakin is talked about - all of these elements of the original movies are made the worse when you are then forced to think about those things' respective representations in the prequels. The mystique and allure is thereby tainted. That is why I make as though those movies don't exist.

To return to my other post, it's the same reason why I've purged The Cursed Child. Sure the epilogue in Deathly Hallows is a joke, but at least in that epilogue Voldemort is dead and the time turners are all gone. I'm still waiting on Fantastic Beasts. Rowling's assorted Pottermore posts on American Wizarding History have got my finger hovering dangerously over the purge button, but we'll see how the movie plays out.

 

[warpus]

And if something is referenced in a canon source, then the thing being referenced must also be, by extension, canon as well.

That doesn't follow though. It just means that that particular thing they're referencing is canon.. Essentially when they make a reference like that we know that in that particular instance the canon of the movies and the canon of the cartoon series overlaps in that particular spot. We have no idea where else they overlap though.

Most Star Wars fans don't go after non-movie canon sources anyway, most people just stick to the movies. So the movies have to "work" on their own. With that in mind it is a bit disappointing that we didn't get to see any of the clone wars on screen, but having said that I preferred the old status quo anyway - the clone wars used to be a thing that people referenced that we didn't know much about. They were really mysterious and "Clone wars" sounded cool, but "The attack of the clones" kind of made that really cheesy and it removed all the cool intrigue and mystery. So all in all I don't care that we didn't get to see much of the clone wars at all, but since the prequels were all about Anakin's rise to Darthdom, and the clone wars were such a big part of that, they should have included a bit more of that on screen IMO. But I mean, it's the prequels, and they're faulty, etc.

 

[Phrossack]

Tartakovsky's Clone Wars, IIRC, was the first thing that showed exactly how it came to pass that Grievous kidnapped the Chancellor and suffered lung injuries. And in a deleted scene, he also executed a captive Shaak Ti, whose capture was also from Clone Wars. So the series wasn't totally forgotten.

 

[Lexicus]

Headcanon is basically how I do everything as there really isn't much more to being a consumer of art. If an author (in the Barthes/Foucault sense of the word) releases a text that I feel is not only bad, but actively harmful to narratively or thematically connected prior texts, I simply toss out the new text and act as though it never happened. I decided a couple years ago to operate as though the prequel films never happened and I've never looked back since. Thankfully doing the same for The Cursed Child is proving far easier seeing as how everybody's already basically forgotten it exists.

I haven't read the Cursed Child, mainly because I was too scared it would be bad. Have you read it? Is it worth reading?

 

[Hygro]

I too enjoyed the prequels when I watched them and think they have a lot going for them.

 

[schlaufuchs]

I haven't read the Cursed Child, mainly because I was too scared it would be bad. Have you read it? Is it worth reading?

The story includes a previously undiscovered time turner and the secret lovechild of Voldemort and Bellatrix Lestrange. So no.

 

[jackelgull]

I never liked how the prequels, and the expanded universe they sometimes borrowed from expanded on the role of the Jedi. According to them, the Jedi are a religious, Church like entity, with a hierarchy and chain of command, their own private military force, and influence permeating all levels of politics up to the senate, with total independence from the Old Republic's decision making process and chain of command. Well, I mean portrayals were inconsistant in the expanded universe, but this one of the interpretations. It kind of makes me wonder how order 66 didn't blow up in Palpatine's face, because of course a long standing politically powerful group can be eliminated without repercussions from their political allies.