3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.2

[pineappledan]

Bringing this up here. Thinking about changing the Polynesia UU2 to a boat.
There is a possibility with current congress proposal that the Koa will be kicked off the scout. That means the Koa either moves somewhere else, or it is replaced entirely

I'm considering giving Polynesia a unique Caravel or Trireme called Vaka Nui instead. It's weird that Polynesia doesn't have a unique boat, already, right? It can just use the same unit model as the embarkation model, but only 1 on the tile and bigger.
I'm leaning towards a unique trireme right now, because Polynesia already has ocean movement innately, so they can leverage that better if the UU comes while everyone else is still stuck to coast.
Also the Vaka Nui is more pan-polynesian than the Koa, which is specifically Hawaiian. Since it is the Polynesian civ, and not the Hawaiian civ, a unit that can represent the entire region is preferable.

So what are people's thoughts? What would you do with a unique Polynesian boat UU?

 

[Anarcomu]

Start with supply. Land units underneath it can heal in any territory.
OR bonus to nearby land units.

 

[Tekamthi]

Bringing this up here. Thinking about changing the Polynesia UU2 to a boat.
There is a possibility with current congress proposal that the Koa will be kicked off the scout. That means the Koa either moves somewhere else, or it is replaced entirely

I'm considering giving Polynesia a unique Caravel or Trireme called Vaka Nui instead. It's weird that Polynesia doesn't have a unique boat, already, right? It can just use the same unit model as the embarkation model, but only 1 on the tile and bigger.
I'm leaning towards a unique trireme right now, because Polynesia already has ocean movement innately, so they can leverage that better if the UU comes while everyone else is still stuck to coast.
Also the Vaka Nui is more pan-polynesian than the Koa, which is specifically Hawaiian. Since it is the Polynesian civ, and not the Hawaiian civ, a unit that can represent the entire region is preferable.
View attachment 689528
So what are people's thoughts? What would you do with a unique Polynesian boat UU?

Is this not essentially what's already represented in their embark ability?

I haven't come across any material that suggests these or any other vessels were ever really used as warships. I understand the gameplay desire on some level, but I think it's too early to really make a difference for defending islands, especially if cities are placed out in ocean... so these will just be a boon for classical era attacks.

Thematically it probably makes most sense to replace swordsman but we get a lot of overlap there, both internally with the proposed scout and it seems a lot of civ's already have uu swordsman.

I really like the duk in your Tlingit mod... I wonder if we might do something similar here. The workboat is currently pointless for Polynesia through much of the game, it seems the obvious target for modmod adjustment. I'd have to revisit to recall specifics, but I did come up with a decent upgrade Lua workaround for duk, could do same here.

Alternately, consider that the database has columns for "convertondomain" etc, which, if they still work as they did years ago, allows a unit to transform into entirely other unit. Maybe have the worker convert into some coast guard type defensive water unit when it leaves land

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Bringing this up here. Thinking about changing the Polynesia UU2 to a boat.
There is a possibility with current congress proposal that the Koa will be kicked off the scout. That means the Koa either moves somewhere else, or it is replaced entirely

I'm considering giving Polynesia a unique Caravel or Trireme called Vaka Nui instead. It's weird that Polynesia doesn't have a unique boat, already, right? It can just use the same unit model as the embarkation model, but only 1 on the tile and bigger.
I'm leaning towards a unique trireme right now, because Polynesia already has ocean movement innately, so they can leverage that better if the UU comes while everyone else is still stuck to coast.
Also the Vaka Nui is more pan-polynesian than the Koa, which is specifically Hawaiian. Since it is the Polynesian civ, and not the Hawaiian civ, a unit that can represent the entire region is preferable.
View attachment 689528
So what are people's thoughts? What would you do with a unique Polynesian boat UU?

I haven't played a ton of Polynesia, but I think the Koa is quite fine actually. A unique scout represents the island exploration aspect better I think (you can pick ancient ruins, etc.) and there are other unique ship replacements, plus the art is really pretty (or you'd keep it?). I personally don't see how would a ship give more than a scout for an explorer kind of civ (and not a war focused) if that unit can cross oceans already, but I understand your aspect as well.

Yes, maybe it's specifically Hawaiian, but don't forget that many Polynesian cities have Hawaiian names, including their capital (not necessarily an argument, just rather a reminder)

 

[pineappledan]

I haven't played a ton of Polynesia, but I think the Koa is quite fine actually. A unique scout represents the island exploration aspect better I think (you can pick ancient ruins, etc.) and there are other unique ship replacements, plus the art is really pretty (or you'd keep it?). I personally don't see how would a ship give more than a scout for an explorer kind of civ (and not a war focused) if that unit can cross oceans already, but I understand your aspect as well.

Yes, maybe it's specifically Hawaiian, but don't forget that many Polynesian cities have Hawaiian names, including their capital (not necessarily an argument, just rather a reminder)

There is a proposal (made by me) to make the maori warrior a scout replacement. If it passes, this effectively moves the Koa into the main mod.

It's more productive to think of the ship as replacing the current maori warrior longswordsman

[Vote] - (7-07) Polynesian Maori Warrior Proposals

Voting Instructions Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options. All votes are public. If you wish, you can...

forums.civfanatics.com

I can either move the Koa to be a longswordsman, swapping the 2 UUs, or we can come up with an entirely new UU

 

[Revolutionist_8]

There is a proposal (made by me) to make the maori warrior a scout replacement. If it passes, this effectively moves the Koa into the main mod.

It's more productive to think of the ship as replacing the current maori warrior longswordsman

[Vote] - (7-07) Polynesian Maori Warrior Proposals

Voting Instructions Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options. All votes are public. If you wish, you can...

forums.civfanatics.com

I can either move the Koa to be a longswordsman, swapping the 2 UUs, or we can come up with an entirely new UU

Ah okay, then it makes sense.

Do you have good art material already? Or you plan the unit / building first, then look for material?

 

[pineappledan]

Do you have good art material already? Or you plan the unit / building first, then look for material

Just the Koa and the Polynesian catamaran that is currently being used for embarked units. It could be repurposed for a naval UU

If other people have other ideas, a proposal would be taken a lot more seriously if it had art resource ideas for how to execute it.

 

[Tekamthi]

I will try my hand at converting some civ 4 ships at some point... No promises on when this might be but I would like to get a better understanding of how to manipulate the 3d models. iirc there are a few with a sort of Polynesia alt-history vibe to them

Edit: one of the boats in this pack, for example https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/three-ancient-ships.28561/

 

[smorgasborgas]

What if the new unique boat acted as a moai for purposes of adjacency culture bonuses if stationed next to other moai? Or maybe gives a +1 production to adjacent moai or something along those lines?

 

[Tekamthi]

What if the new unique boat acted as a moai for purposes of adjacency culture bonuses if stationed next to other moai? Or maybe gives a +1 production to adjacent moai or something along those lines?

I think these position-optimizing mechanisms are not well suited to AI, especially for yields... I like the idea though, not familiar enough to say if database allows for this

 

[FinMc]

Start with supply. Land units underneath it can heal in any territory.
OR bonus to nearby land units.

Medic boat would be really fun

 

[pineappledan]

Start with supply.

Nice and easy. Love it.

I haven't come across any material that suggests these or any other vessels were ever really used as warships. I understand the gameplay desire on some level, but I think it's too early to really make a difference for defending islands, especially if cities are placed out in ocean... so these will just be a boon for classical era attacks.

The Tongan empire presumably had warships. There is no evidence for them, but it seems parsimonious to suggest that a sea-based empire like that had naval war fighting capacity.

For direct evidence, we do know that Kamehameha’s invasion of Oahu involved the use of swivel guns mounted on boats.

At any rate, To say a Polynesian vessel has never been used in combat seems to be the more extraordinary claim, imo. You’re going to need evidence of absence, rather than just an absence of evidence to convince me otherwise.

I really like the duk in your Tlingit mod... I wonder if we might do something similar here. The workboat is currently pointless for Polynesia through much of the game, it seems the obvious target for modmod adjustment. I'd have to revisit to recall specifics, but I did come up with a decent upgrade Lua workaround for duk, could do same here.

That’s an interesting idea. You could replace the fishing boat with anything you wanted since the embarked units can make the boats. However, the AI needs to be taught to use this part of the UA before we can repurpose that unit. Otherwise the AI will never improve fish.

Another interesting source of inspiration would be the Balangay from my Philippines mod.

 

[Tekamthi]

The Tongan empire presumably had warships. There is no evidence for them, but it seems parsimonious to suggest that a sea-based empire like that had naval war fighting capacity.

For direct evidence, we do know that Kamehameha’s invasion of Oahu involved the use of swivel guns mounted on boats.

At any rate, To say a Polynesian vessel has never been used in combat seems to be the more extraordinary claim, imo. You’re going to need evidence of absence, rather than just an absence of evidence to convince me otherwise.

This is a reversal of the concept of the burden of proof -- when a claim is made that something exists or existed, the burden generally falls to the proponent to show evidence for it, not for its skeptics to prove that it didn't.

Anyway I'm not certain of anything about polynesia's history, just sharing what I do know, its possible that you have more information than I do. I've only ever heard of the polynesians using transport style craft, I'd suggest the swivel gun boats may have been more akin to armed landing craft than full-fledged warships. I'd agree its likely that at some point, somewhere, some polynesians fought each other or some foreign invader on the water, boat to boat -- I don't think this was the norm however. When you think about the distances involved, the vast oceans and relatively sparse coastlines, I'd imagine it would be almost impossible for any pre-industrial society to meaningfully patrol the waters sufficiently to intercept the enemy at sea.

The history that I'm familiar with suggests they would invade between islands, many surprise attacks and whatnot... here's an academic source we can make some inferences from:

Seven of the eight small islands in his sample that are more than 100 km away from neighbors are relatively peaceful, in contrast to small islands with relatively close neighbors.

The distance is critical. While 100 km is well within the navigating capabilities of Polynesian canoeists—a day’s canoeing distance away—such distance severely limits the ability of islanders to initiate inter-island warfare. However, distance from neighboring islands was relatively less important for people on the larger islands, where communities can easily fight with others on the same island.

Conditions that Foster Peacefulness in Polynesia | Peaceful Societies

peacefulsocieties.uncg.edu

The lower incidence of violence beyond 100km range suggests they were not often using large vessels with stores and provisions to conduct attacks after multi-day voyages. The landing and transport craft are of course civ 5's embarked status

 

[pineappledan]

This is a reversal of the concept of the burden of proof -- when a claim is made that something exists or existed, the burden generally falls to the proponent to show evidence for it, not for its skeptics to prove that it didn't.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the more extraordinary claim.

We know that Hawaii was united over generations of conflict which finally concluded with Kamehameha and involved the acquisition of guns from Europeans. We know that Tui Tonga had a proper empire in the 11th to 16th centuries. You're asserting that island empires and kingdoms like Tonga and Hawaii existed without warships. That's an extraordinary claim. The burden of proof rests on you to explain how that is possible.

I realize that you are basically being asked to prove a negative, but you are asserting that Polynesians didn't fight on boats, when everyone else on the planet fights with boats, and Polynesians may well have been the first people to have ever have built seaworthy boats on which to fight. That's an extreme claim.

I'd agree its likely that at some point, somewhere, some polynesians fought each other or some foreign invader on the water, boat to boat -- I don't think this was the norm however. When you think about the distances involved, the vast oceans and relatively sparse coastlines, I'd imagine it would be almost impossible for any pre-industrial society to meaningfully patrol the waters sufficiently to intercept the enemy at sea.

All the of the pre-renaissance boats in the game except for the Galleass and the trireme were trade and exploration boats first and warships second. Dedicated warships are the exception, not the rule.

 

[Tekamthi]

All the of the pre-renaissance boats in the game except for the Galleass and the trireme were trade and exploration boats first and warships second. Dedicated warships are the exception, not the rule.

true -- tbh I'd love if we could represent this better for these dual-purpose vessels, but thats off-topic...

The earlier we have any naval UU appear for poly (if thats the route we're going), the better -- the galley might be preferable to the trireme in thematic sense (or the workboat if we work out the issues there) -- by the time we hit caravel I'd say we're decidedly too late.

That’s an interesting idea. You could replace the fishing boat with anything you wanted since the embarked units can make the boats. However, the AI needs to be taught to use this part of the UA before we can repurpose that unit. Otherwise the AI will never improve fish.

I don't think I've ever played against AI tlingit -- AI doesn't use poly's melee/gun fishing boat kit, but do they still improve fish with the duk? Are they able to use the duk in its dual role? If so, I'd propose that a poly workboat UU retain its ability to make fishing boats (essentially give it same ability as the melee/gun units get, so it doesnt get used up), and with some clever selection of ability add-ons allowing poly to get an early start on some solid naval units for w/e purpose early naval units are intended to serve...

But this thought leads to some gameplay concerns with an early poly naval unit: A few voices say that poly needs naval UU -- the reasoning seems to be based on the fact that they are a maritime-specialist civ, and it just seems natural that a maritime civ should have naval UU, right? But tbh i never build naval units with poly early-on -- poly either founds cities one-tile inland or way out in ocean where nobody can get to them (there are exceptions of course, but trying to identify the standard human poly playstyle). The fishing boat ability on melee lets you rebuild them easily if they get destroyed; theres no point wasting precious early supply to ward off barb galleys when you can plink them with cities/archers and instantly rebuild the fishing boats at ~0 cost. A poly with UU scout has to build more recon than is normal, but the UA requires that they still build melee, and everyone needs archers; there's just not much supply leftover for early naval with poly. The only time I build early poly navy is if I settle mainland near another naval-focused civ -- but this is generally something to avoid, unless you get super placement opportunity with NW and +++moai locations. So naval UU early on will not directly align with poly's current optimal playstyle. Also, when you do build navy early with poly, its a little abusable against enemies in that you can snipe any enemy naval units with little repurcussion, retreating into ocean afterwards. So with more powerful naval UU we may exacerbate this abusability.

It could work, but we should be very thoughtful about the ability-mix on a poly UU to make it both worthwhile to build and not too abusable when combined with early ocean access.

 

[Psilonemo]

Bringing this up here. Thinking about changing the Polynesia UU2 to a boat.
There is a possibility with current congress proposal that the Koa will be kicked off the scout. That means the Koa either moves somewhere else, or it is replaced entirely

I'm considering giving Polynesia a unique Caravel or Trireme called Vaka Nui instead. It's weird that Polynesia doesn't have a unique boat, already, right? It can just use the same unit model as the embarkation model, but only 1 on the tile and bigger.
I'm leaning towards a unique trireme right now, because Polynesia already has ocean movement innately, so they can leverage that better if the UU comes while everyone else is still stuck to coast.
Also the Vaka Nui is more pan-polynesian than the Koa, which is specifically Hawaiian. Since it is the Polynesian civ, and not the Hawaiian civ, a unit that can represent the entire region is preferable.
View attachment 689528
So what are people's thoughts? What would you do with a unique Polynesian boat UU?

Sounds like a great idea. I think it might be interesting if the UU functioned as a unique "combat settler" like Spanish conquistadors that becomes available earlier. Polynesia is a high risk civ to play, they might as well be given the tools to traverse that risk and found cities all over the map in the best islands available. Perhaps a less game-breaking way would be to transfer the movement of the Vaka Nui to civilian units stacked with it - this way settlers can move quickly and far away with the Vaka Nui to places other civs can't an entire era ahead of everybody else. I'm also for making the Vaka Nui a replacement for the Galley instead of the Trireme, to give this benefit to the Polynesians even earlier.

 

[franzacq]

Version 4.7 of the CPP removed Promotion Tree for VP in favor of Squads. This modmod depends on Promotion Tree and is now blocked from being enabled for me after upgrading. Is this something that can be fixed by a quick line tweak or does this need a larger update?

 

[jarcast2]

Version 4.7 of the CPP removed Promotion Tree for VP in favor of Squads. This modmod depends on Promotion Tree and is now blocked from being enabled for me after upgrading. Is this something that can be fixed by a quick line tweak or does this need a larger update?

Substitute the .modinfo file with this one.
I removed the promotion tree mod from dependencies so that the mod can be enabled.

EDIT: forgot to add (2) Vox Populi as dependency. I fixed it. Please redownload. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

You can delete line 28 from .modinfo in MUC folder and you are good to go

 

[jarcast2]

You can delete line 28 from .modinfo in MUC folder and you are good to go

Nope, I thought so, too, but unfortunately that's misleading. Line 28 must be replaced with (2) Vox Populi mod id as dependency as in my fixed file (and per pdan's indication on discord).