Limiting Exploration

I'm not advocating for anyone to choose between 1UPT and Doom-stacks, I'm just pointing out, that there's clearly more merits to 1UPT than people give it credit for (i.e. it's simple) - and there are more downsides to various stacking methods that people try to dismiss.
But you haven't really presented any new reasons to support 1UPT (mostly reiterating standing ones, with some semantics), and haven't provided any new downsides to various types of stacking (mostly just criticizing those who support the notion, and claiming their reasons are shallow and unthought-out).
 
The most disturbing thing with 1UPT is how limited are the arguments of those supporting it. It's good because it is, and if you push them to give arguments that systematically ends up with "1UPT is good because stacks of doom are bad, discussion over". It's exactly like saying that in order to not eat excessively salted food, there was no other choice than to exclusively eat sugared food. We can't make the discussion move forward with such an attitude.

If you're deeply convinced that 1UPT is better design, take the time to ask yourself why you think so and try to convince us who are skeptical. Calling us heretics is both lazy and useless.

Now the next question is, why do you like mountains to be impassable?
Hi, I'm very late to this, but do we really want to make this another one of those threads? :D

I mean, some of y'all are already trying, and fair is fair, opinion is opinion. But of all of us regular (and some more semi-regular, hello) posters know where pretty much everyone sits on that dreaded topic, and the only thing that could be done to advance it (in my opinion) would be Firaxis doing something with it (good or bad). That would at least be something to discuss!

For example, "1UPT is good because stacks of doom are bad, discussion over" is as uncharitable as you're assuming the posters making this argument are being to MUPT (or at least, unlimited / highly unrestricted stacks). I think there are merits to 1UPT, there are merits to MUPT, and while personally of the two preferring 1UPT, I believe any longterm solution relies somewhere in the middle. Firaxis seem to be heading this way with the changes they've been making since CiV (and CiV could also be counted as a change, from previous games in the series).

But more than that, 1UPT vs. MUPT is doomed to failure, and is always doomed to failure, because everyone gets hung up on that exact, singular, narrow lens. A game is more than the sum of its parts (in good and bad ways). 1UPT wouldn't be what it is in CiV without CiV's comparatively restrictive mapgen. Social perception of 1UPT in Civ VI wouldn't be as poor without it. The evolution of unit stacking and things like Corps and Armies in VI wouldn't exist without valid pushback to V's implementation. And so on, and so forth.

So what about exploration? I don't think limiting it is necessarily a bad thing, but in terms of player psychology putting restrictions on players either has to be done carefully, so they don't feel restricted .This is where the feeling of "artificial" gameplay comes from. It doesn't mean literally artificial, because everything in a video game is precisely crafted for players to enjoy a specific set of rules as defined by the developers (and sometimes, well, we break 'em). It means the feeling of artifice. Of us seeing the naked corners of the game. Of being railroaded (even when we're not being that railroaded, which is why different players have different reactions).

I think, like everything else in a video game, things should have limits. If the devs come up with a way to stagger exploration (which is historically and currently a very strong mechanic in Civ), or limit it in some relatively organic way, I'd be happy fine with that. It doesn't even have to relate to tall vs. wide development, there's plenty with literal map exploration alone that could be done.
 
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Leaving Stacks to moulder for a moment, I agree that limiting exploration is a very dicey move: gamers don't like restrictions, and restricting one of the basic 'X's' of the 4X game is bound to be fearfully resented.

One possibility would be to double down on the specialization and increase the usefullness of Unit Types. Specifically, the Recon line of units as they are portrayed in Civ.

So, for example, if units were to be restricted from moving through deserts, tundra, snow/ice, or jungle/rainforest in the early/mid game because of the difficulty of feeding them or keeping them healthy in those environments, simply have those restrictions Not apply to Scouts of any kind. That would be a quick way to make Scouts far more useful, and even extend heir usefulness somewhat - don't know about anyone else, but I find it very difficult to keep scouts active after the Classical Era, because of the proliferation of more dangerous Barbarian and other enemy units (horsemen, archers/crossbowmen, men-at-arms) that eat them alive. Making scouts and their successors the only units that can traverse snow/tundra or deserts, or at least traverse them without penalty, would almost make it worthwhile to keep replacing them.
Add in, possibly as a Promotion, an ability for Scouts Only to cross mountains, and they could remain very useful right to end of game . . .
 
The irony is that it's precisely when exploration started to become important in real History, at the Renaissance, that it loses all value in Civilization games. We can wonder why is it so?

In real History, it is the development of global trade which motivated Western European powers to discover the world. They needed to control distant outposts in order to secure trade. That's an aspect which has hardly ever been represented in the Civilization series, yet that's really what Empire building is all about.

It's not anything really new though, that's exactly what the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Greeks and the Romans have done earlier, except that it was performed at a much larger scale. I see here a potential to extend the 4Xs for a much longer period of time, all through the game actually, rather than stopping midway in the game once all civilizations are established in their own corner of the map. Maybe late game boredom is explained precisely because there's no longer any of the 4Xs in action.

The discussion, at least as I understand it, is absolutely not about restricting one of the X's, it's the exact opposite actually.
 
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Renaissance trade-route-related exploration was largely *naval* exploration, though (which does hapoen around the renaissance in civ game and is the one kind of trade that keep its gsme relevance then. (Land exploration of trade routes, ie, the Polo brothers, came significantly earlier, and of course they were just reverse engineering an already well established piece of exploration).

Land exploration in the Renaissance was limited essentially to areas with less organized states (so there was land "free" for the claiming) that had hitherto been inaccessible to Europe (because of navigation or because rival empires blocked the way), to wit, much of the Americas and Siberia. In the right condition, this will happen in civ, but it's much rarer (because the countries that block the way also tend to colonize the land they're protecting, and because unless you play Terra most continents feature at least one playable civilization).if you set the game up with an empty continent, there absolutely will be renaissance exploration once it's reached.
 
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The irony is that it's precisely when exploration started to become important in real History, at the Renaissance, that it loses all value in Civilization games. We can wonder why is it so?

In real History, it is the development of global trade which motivated Western European powers to discover the world. They needed to control distant outposts in order to secure trade. That's an aspect which has hardly ever been represented in the Civilization series, yet that's really what Empire building is all about.

It's not anything really new though, that's exactly what the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Greeks and the Romans have done earlier, except that it was performed at a much larger scale. I see here a potential to extend the 4Xs for a much longer period of time, all through the game actually, rather than stopping midway in the game once all civilizations are established in their own corner of the map. Maybe late game boredom is explained precisely because there's no longer any of the 4Xs in action.

The discussion, at least as I understand it, is absolutely not about restricting one of the X's, it's the exact opposite actually.
There were some differences in the various Powers' versions of Exploration/Expansion, though.
Let's see if we can find a Common Thread:
1. Sumerians. The classic version of their expansion was in setting up distant settlements to exploit Resources - specifically, two small 'cities' in the mountains of eastern Anatolia to produce Copper and copper artifacts and ship them back to Uruk and other Sumerian cities. I suggest that the reason more of this isn't done at any time in Civ is that it requires ou to build a Settler, send it off (protected) and develop an entire City to gain access. Let's hold that thought.
2. Greeks and Phoenicians simply colonized - setting up new cities all across the Mediterranean, parts of the Atlantic Cast of Iberia and North Africa, and the coast of the Black Sea. This is pretty basic, classic 4x behavior: EXpansion at its most concentrated.
3. Romans didn't found so many new cities as they simply conquered existing cities and peoples and incorporated them. And Roman integration of other peoples with very different cultures into their Empire was so successful that Internal Revolt was almost unknown and not a major component of the final collapse of the Empire - a pretty remarkable achievement when you consider it.
4. Finally, note that while Europeans eventually conquered wherever they went, that was not universal: where they encountered established and powerful native States (India, China and East Asia) they more often started by establishing Factories - toeholds in major ports from which their Trade representatives could operate. Many of these became or were built as Fortified places, but for the most part they were not large or 'threatening' in themselves.

In all of these, the common thread is Trade. The Sumerians established their distant Settlements precisely to trade needed resources back to the homeland, trhe Greeks and Phoenicians had major trade networks with the colonies even when they had only ephemeral political control or even contact with them, the Roman Empire's wealth rested on massive trade networks that extended from Britain to Mesopotamia within and Scandinavia to India without the Empire. And, of course, the Age of Exploration could just as easily be called the Age of Exploitation as Europeans wove a net of Trading networks around gthe world.

So, I suggest that several things might be required to both put Exploration back in focus and also allow for the varieties of Exploration, Exploitation and Expansion represented by the 'historical examples' cited.

1. Allow a Civ to set up Smaller-Than-City, one tile 'bits' of Owned Territory. Need a resource that's 15 tiles from your nearest border? Use a Unit which is not destroyed in the process (perhaps even a single Action by a Builder?) to establish an Outpost or Settlement on the tile and gain access to any Resource there. Later, that same mechanic, perhaps using a Great Merchant, could establish a specific Fortified Trading Post next to or near a foreign city that funnels both Resources and Trade to you homeland, so that both the Age of Exploration Factory system and the earlier Outposts are covered by a similar mechanic in the game.

2. Perhaps 'lighten up' on the age-old requirement to build a relatively expensive Settler to found a new City. After all, Humankind goes much of their game without Settlers, and it would make it much easier to recreate the massive expansion of the Greeks and Pheonicians in the late Ancient/early Classical Eras. The downside, of course, is that many of these new cities started out Greek or Phoenician culturally, but almost none of them remained politically part of any homeland Greek or Phoenician political entity. Essentially, then, you would be starting new City States, perhaps with a distinctive set of characteristics related to your own Civ, but with no political loyalty to you.

That second would require, of course, a whole new set of definitions of in-game advantages. After all, at the moment it's hard to see why you'd want to set up new City States when you could, even with more effort, settle the same territory with a loyal, completely controlled new city of your Civ. Possibly this could revolve around Trade advantages with City States that, at least temporarily, Trump the advantages from having the city as a wholly-owned part of your Civ.
 
I’ve been watching this whole process about what to do with huts, barbarian camps, city states etc and increasingly complex ways in how they should be interacted with and evolve into each other and maybe some camps should be peaceful or whatever and I decided the best course of action is to Kobayashi Maru the whole thing.

We already have a system in place for having other state actors in the game that can be interacted with diplomatically in various ways, can be traded with, can be hostile or not, can grow, build armies, even found cities.

It’s called other civilizations

So I’ve been doing an experiment where I Gordion Knot the whole mess, deleted city states, removed goody huts and set barbs to zero. I then expanded the number of other civs in the game to cover that space. While I was at it I reduced the range of loyalty effects to 4 tiles to get rid of the stupid where Europe cannot exist because loyalty eats them all.

The game immediatly got a lot cleaner AND more interesting.

And Oh My God, you can found a coastal city in the ancient era without the entire surrounding ocean being 4 hexes deep in pirate galleys

Mercifully, none that ever made it to market.

Back in the early 1970s, I lived in New York City for about 6 months and was a regular at Simulations Publications' (at the time, publishing Strategy & Tactics magazine with a cardboard and paper game in every issue) Friday night playtest sessions. In addition to testing proposed new games for the magazine or separate publication, sometimes we'd also test game mechanics that could potentially be used in numerous games. One of those was Attritional Movement, in which units with insufficient supply would have a chance of being damaged the further they moved out of supply.
The problem with this, magnified in a non-computer game, was that the gamer had to roll a die for every unit moving out of supply, cross-reference the distance moved and terrain type and unit type, and apply results. It slowed the gamer's turn down to a crawl, and was incredibly annoying since a single 6-sided die gave far too dramatic results for comfort.

Now, computers can reduce a lot of the time-consuming part, but simply not moving out of supply reduces the whole exercise to futility, and if the potential attrition is too great, no one will move out of supply (except, probably, the AI) while if the attrition is not bad enough, it becomes just an annoying mechanic with no real purpose except to aggravate the gamer.

Either way, it was a negative addition to any game, and as far as I know was never used.

Man I just had a massive nostalgia wave. I remember as a kid waiting for stuff like like that and AH’s The General to show up in my mailbox

Now it’s pipe tobacco. Well till Canada bans that too

And some of Us Mini-veterans folks who pay attention to ground and time scale in the game.

And, ironically, you are making the same mistake that @Marla_Singer called out:
"I would not like to see Civ "move back" to how it was . . ." - which appears to assume that the only alternative to 1UPT is to 'move back' to the hoary old SoD.

I'm sure there are some out there that advocate the SoD, but they've been pretty silent on these Forums, and my argument has always been that there has to be something better than the grossly out of scale 1UPT or simplistic and unrealistic Stack of Dum, especially when 1UPT has the additional massive drawback that the AI has no idea how to use it.

Ah yes, the classic “all or nothing” fallacy

Speaking of the old Consim type hex wargames, many of the hex based ones quickly iterated to 3 units per hex since that seemed to be the optimum stack size for easy management.

I’ve experimented with the mod “ARS - Improved Movement v2.2” which basically introduces 3 unit stacking (one melee, one ranged, one cavalry) and it improves the game tremendously, getting rid of the hideous problem of having to solve a sliding tile problem every time you move your units, without the annoyance of stack management or a bunch of subsystems involving stacks

Simple, clean, effective
 
I’ve been watching this whole process about what to do with huts, barbarian camps, city states etc and increasingly complex ways in how they should be interacted with and evolve into each other and maybe some camps should be peaceful or whatever and I decided the best course of action is to Kobayashi Maru the whole thing.

We already have a system in place for having other state actors in the game that can be interacted with diplomatically in various ways, can be traded with, can be hostile or not, can grow, build armies, even found cities.

It’s called other civilizations

So I’ve been doing an experiment where I Gordion Knot the whole mess, deleted city states, removed goody huts and set barbs to zero. I then expanded the number of other civs in the game to cover that space. While I was at it I reduced the range of loyalty effects to 4 tiles to get rid of the stupid where Europe cannot exist because loyalty eats them all.

The game immediatly got a lot cleaner AND more interesting.

And Oh My God, you can found a coastal city in the ancient era without the entire surrounding ocean being 4 hexes deep in pirate galleys



Man I just had a massive nostalgia wave. I remember as a kid waiting for stuff like like that and AH’s The General to show up in my mailbox

Now it’s pipe tobacco. Well till Canada bans that too



Ah yes, the classic “all or nothing” fallacy

Speaking of the old Consim type hex wargames, many of the hex based ones quickly iterated to 3 units per hex since that seemed to be the optimum stack size for easy management.

I’ve experimented with the mod “ARS - Improved Movement v2.2” which basically introduces 3 unit stacking (one melee, one ranged, one cavalry) and it improves the game tremendously, getting rid of the hideous problem of having to solve a sliding tile problem every time you move your units, without the annoyance of stack management or a bunch of subsystems involving stacks

Simple, clean, effective

Maybe good stack categories could be Melee, Ranged, Support

Where support and civilians and religious units could be the same type (or not)

Melee would be Cav and Basic and AntiCav

Ranged would be both light ranged and artillery.

Each have their own shape for the little icons. That maybe fit into each other?
 
Speaking of the old Consim type hex wargames, many of the hex based ones quickly iterated to 3 units per hex since that seemed to be the optimum stack size for easy management.

I’ve experimented with the mod “ARS - Improved Movement v2.2” which basically introduces 3 unit stacking (one melee, one ranged, one cavalry) and it improves the game tremendously, getting rid of the hideous problem of having to solve a sliding tile problem every time you move your units, without the annoyance of stack management or a bunch of subsystems involving stacks

Simple, clean, effective
Board games quickly limited any stacking to around 3 units per tile/hex because of the physical problems of moving stacks. If I had nightmares, one recurring one would probably be trying to move stacks in the Europa system of board games (WWII with units down to individual Battalions!) in which a stack could have 8 little cardboard counters or more in a tottering pile in one hex . . .

Coming at it from an entirely different direction, but I've been fiddling with a '3 element' stacking system in which all combat units were divided into just 3 'classes':
Line = Melee, Anti-Cav, Heavy Cav - people who like to get up close and personal
Ranged/Support = Archers, Slingers, Artillery, Battering Rams, etc - people who prefer to Keep Their Distance or have somebody else cover them while they work
Mobile = Light Cavalry, Helicopters, Scouts, German Panzers - people who prefer to fight in the enemy flanks and rear

Still in the concept stage, but potentially it could allow either a Battle System in which events are based on more realistic deployment than simply stacking up the maximum number of combat factors and/or a One-Tile/One Turn Battle Resolution in which the worst excesses of both Humankind and Millennia are avoided.
 
I’ve been watching this whole process about what to do with huts, barbarian camps, city states etc and increasingly complex ways in how they should be interacted with and evolve into each other and maybe some camps should be peaceful or whatever and I decided the best course of action is to Kobayashi Maru the whole thing.

We already have a system in place for having other state actors in the game that can be interacted with diplomatically in various ways, can be traded with, can be hostile or not, can grow, build armies, even found cities.

It’s called other civilizations

So I’ve been doing an experiment where I Gordion Knot the whole mess, deleted city states, removed goody huts and set barbs to zero. I then expanded the number of other civs in the game to cover that space. While I was at it I reduced the range of loyalty effects to 4 tiles to get rid of the stupid where Europe cannot exist because loyalty eats them all.

The game immediatly got a lot cleaner AND more interesting.

And Oh My God, you can found a coastal city in the ancient era without the entire surrounding ocean being 4 hexes deep in pirate galleys.
What do you mean about Europe cannot exist?
If you mean that wants an scenario were many relatively small nations can be in the same region, then is quite ironic that you cant see the value of "minor" non-playable civs.
Asymmetrical interaction, history is full of examples of "minor" entities being the objetive and means for greater powers to achieve influence and profit. Regular civs work in a way that are supposed to be expansive by default turning the world in no time into a handful of powers. On the contrary "barbarians" are a mean to dissuade players from overexpand and City States are incapable to expand plus have some incentives to do not just destroy or directly control them.
These minor entities also are the chance to represent many cultures and entities that could no be represented as fully playable civs because we lacks some historical elements like well know leaders, language, city names, etc. And even when we know them there are too many to be practical, profitable and distinguisable from each other in gameplay identity.
Even for performance since minor civ do not have all the parameters and necesities of main playable civs then their system demand can be lower. And dont forget how annoying some leaders of main civ are to interact, I would past if I must deal the same way with many more small factions with likewise irritating agendas. Minor civs diplomacy could be simpler and controllable.
 
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If that is their purpose then they do a poor job indeed. Regular opposing civs are a far harsher check on expansion.
That aspect can be improved, barbarians units can be myghter especially on non-controled land, then the opposite annoying effect of being too powerfull to resist their raids could be controled by the BC mode payment to be let alone for some time in your already controled area.

Meanwhile the others playable civs limite your expansion by taking over the land. The point was "replace barbarians and city states with regular civs" and those regular civs would do a worse job achieving all the other points addressed. So lets fix one downside instead of ignore and waste all the others upsides.
 
If the retort is "Well yes but they can be different" then you can just say that about anything.

I think it's an interesting idea to streamline, actually. Humankind didn't have barbarians and that wasn't one of the aspects that bothered me. I think they're kind of a passe mechanic and I'd not be sad to see them leave Civ.
 
Board games quickly limited any stacking to around 3 units per tile/hex because of the physical problems of moving stacks. If I had nightmares, one recurring one would probably be trying to move stacks in the Europa system of board games (WWII with units down to individual Battalions!) in which a stack could have 8 little cardboard counters or more in a tottering pile in one hex . . .

Coming at it from an entirely different direction, but I've been fiddling with a '3 element' stacking system in which all combat units were divided into just 3 'classes':
Line = Melee, Anti-Cav, Heavy Cav - people who like to get up close and personal
Ranged/Support = Archers, Slingers, Artillery, Battering Rams, etc - people who prefer to Keep Their Distance or have somebody else cover them while they work
Mobile = Light Cavalry, Helicopters, Scouts, German Panzers - people who prefer to fight in the enemy flanks and rear

Still in the concept stage, but potentially it could allow either a Battle System in which events are based on more realistic deployment than simply stacking up the maximum number of combat factors and/or a One-Tile/One Turn Battle Resolution in which the worst excesses of both Humankind and Millennia are avoided.

Oh man I seem to remember someone selling some sort of Gamer Tweezes or similar things to manage stacks in those monster games.

The big reason three also works well in computer hex games is that three units are usually the most you can put in a hex at a reasonable zoom/resolution and see all three units plainly without having to drill down with an extra click to see the contents of a stack

It works like this in Civ6 with the mod I mentioned even though the game was not designed for it, you can see all the units in a hex without trouble.

The mod I mentioned earlier almost does what you are suggesting, I would recommend trying it.

What do you mean about Europe cannot exist?
If you mean that wants an scenario were many relatively small nations can be in the same region, then is quite ironic that you cant see the value of "minor" non-playable civs.
Asymmetrical interaction, history is full of examples of "minor" entities being the objetive and means for greater powers to achieve influence and profit. Regular civs work in a way that are supposed to be expansive by default turning the world in no time into a handful of powers. On the contrary "barbarians" are a mean to dissuade players from overexpand and City States are incapable to expand plus have some incentives to do not just destroy or directly control them.
These minor entities also are the chance to represent many cultures and entities that could no be represented as fully playable civs because we lacks some historical elements like well know leaders, language, city names, etc. And even when we know them there are too many to be practical, profitable and distinguisable from each other in gameplay identity.
Even for performance since minor civ do not have all the parameters and necesities of main playable civs then their system demand can be lower. And dont forget how annoying some leaders of main civ are to interact, I would past if I must deal the same way with many more small factions with likewise irritating agendas. Minor civs diplomacy could be simpler and controllable.

You are making an artificial distinction that just needlessly overcomplicates things. Rather than having a whole seperate subsystem to try and cover an aggressive neighbour and calling it a barbarian, you just put a warmonger civ there.

If that is their purpose then they do a poor job indeed. Regular opposing civs are a far harsher check on expansion.

They are basically an annoyance
 
If that is their purpose then they do a poor job indeed. Regular opposing civs are a far harsher check on expansion.

If the retort is "Well yes but they can be different" then you can just say that about anything.

I think it's an interesting idea to streamline, actually. Humankind didn't have barbarians and that wasn't one of the aspects that bothered me. I think they're kind of a passe mechanic and I'd not be sad to see them leave Civ.

On defence of the barbarians, I think, opposing Civs cannot physically 'check' expansions without declaring war (which won't happen too frequently or it would annoy the player)

The real purpose of Barbarians is two-fold:
Giving the player a little bit of combat to do before they get to face the real thing (other 'players') - teaching them and/or busywork.
Scaring the player away from mindless fast expansion - you can't move a Settler into the 'Unknown' without risking a random Barbarian sleep walking into them.

Humankind actually has replacements for both of these systems.
For teaching combat, they use the wild animals.
For curbing mindless player expansion, they have that 'Stability' mechanic.

(Sorry was it called Stability or something else? That currency that you need to pay to build a city on a territory)
 
You are making an artificial distinction that just needlessly overcomplicates things. Rather than having a whole seperate subsystem to try and cover an aggressive neighbour and calling it a barbarian, you just put a warmonger civ there.
The artificial distiction was explained already:
- Historical Flavor, world history is not a symmetrical competition of expansionist powers.
- Slow down the total control of the map.
- Practical inability to represent every faction in a full fledged playable civ.
- The minor civs are easier to control by players and to process by the game.

Meanwhile the warmonger civ would put their own cities there with all their districts on the tiles they wanted, and their attack would be msotly directed to destroy you so instead of early barbarian annoyance you will get early defeat.
 
On defence of the barbarians, I think, opposing Civs cannot physically 'check' expansions without declaring war (which won't happen too frequently or it would annoy the player)

The real purpose of Barbarians is two-fold:
Giving the player a little bit of combat to do before they get to face the real thing (other 'players') - teaching them and/or busywork.
Scaring the player away from mindless fast expansion - you can't move a Settler into the 'Unknown' without risking a random Barbarian sleep walking into them.

Humankind actually has replacements for both of these systems.
For teaching combat, they use the wild animals.
For curbing mindless player expansion, they have that 'Stability' mechanic.

(Sorry was it called Stability or something else? That currency that you need to pay to build a city on a territory)
This part is relevant also.
Players learn and get small gratificacion doses from the "little wars" against the "minor factions" and the easier achivement of influence and control City States.
 
For curbing mindless player expansion, they have that 'Stability' mechanic.

(Sorry was it called Stability or something else? That currency that you need to pay to build a city on a territory)
I think it's "Influence" and that mechanic is AMAZING! That + the territory system are a stroke of genius on Amplitude's part. I'd love to see similar ideas in Civ.
 
If I try to imagine a game without Barbs, I think that I would be quite bored when my military has basically nothing to do, and I don't want to have to declare wars on City-States and risk diplomatic problems or something.
Also basically nothing will really get in the way of me doing anything, there would be no real minor obstacles or mini-scenarios.
I do understand that they're annoying though. Maybe they just get old after dozens and dozens of games.

I think it's "Influence" and that mechanic is AMAZING! That + the territory system are a stroke of genius on Amplitude's part. I'd love to see similar ideas in Civ.
I haven't played HK enough to really comment. I played it on release and I thought Influence was... interesting.
Sidetrack: I'm not a huge fan of amounts of things that don't really mean anything.

For example, for Millenia, they have all these 'Points' like 'Improvement Points'
For another example, Dune (the 4X RTS hybrid one) has stuff like 'Authority'

I know they're supposed to represent things, but in my mind it's not really as concrete.

EDIT: I don't think a Territory system will ever come to Civ. Because: it artificially pre-divides the map, which takes away from player expression to 'Found an empire whatever way you like'.
 
Maybe good stack categories could be Melee, Ranged, Support

Where support and civilians and religious units could be the same type (or not)

Melee would be Cav and Basic and AntiCav

Ranged would be both light ranged and artillery.

Each have their own shape for the little icons. That maybe fit into each other?
I mentioned this in another thread about how I would implement limited stacking. I think using this criterion along with my idea could work.

In the Classical Era you can learn Phalanx formation which would let you combine either melee or Anticavalry with cavalry units, up to 2 units per tile.

In the Renaissance/Early modern you can learn Pike and Shot in which you can now have both melee and Anticavalry also on the same tile, up to 3 units per tile.

In the Industrial Era you would learn Corps formation and can add ranged/artillery units, up to 4 units per tile.

In the Atomic Era by learning Combined Arms you could finally add support/recon units, with up to 5 units per tile.
 
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