Grigori Guide

[EverNoob]

In terms of victory, the Grigori do best with conquest, domination, and tower of mastery. The cultural and altar victories are possible but more difficult because of the lack of religion (ie: extra culture + priests). You can no longer use luonnotar units to build the altar. The religious victory is impossible with the Grigori. Because the Grigori tend to win with aggressive victory conditions, the late game focus should be on techs that give a strong military advantage.

The best tech line for the late game is the arcane line. At strength of will you get luonnotars and archmages. One advantage of the arcane line is that you can use GS to bulb it. If you sacrifice adventurer output in favour of GS, you can use Ardor to bulb strength of will sooner. This way you can get archmages sooner than any other civ, though you'll have fewer adventurers. Usually it doesn't matter because early archmages are very difficult to counter.

Another good tech line is the metal line ending with mithril weapons. Adventurer phalanxes are very good at breaking city defenses. The Grigori also have access to arquebus and cannons to support your phalanxes. Researching mithril weapons usually takes forever, so using the tower of divination is usually a good idea.

Those are the two most common late research paths for the Grigori, but in reality any non-religious path is viable if the situation calls for it.

Note that in 0.31 the luonnotar replaces druids, meaning that druids are no longer available to the Grigori.

PS: I updated the earlier sections of this guide to reflect changes in 0.31.

 

[stp]

I think that 0.31d must have really helped the Grigori. Free sphere promotions for Mages/Archmages on upgrade, should be a nice boost that saves XP for the Combat and Spell Extensions promotions when leveling Adventurer spellcasters.

 

[Sarisin]

EverNoob, I have found this thread very interesting. I have been playing the Grigori more and enjoying it a lot.

A couple of comments:

My first game with .31 resulted in a cultural victory with Cassiel - I was only playing at Monarch though. I was just very lucky when I got Hunting from a goodie hut, and then Animal Husbandry. My second adventurer was a Hunter (I had just enough gold) and I was lucky again to get all of the animals to build the Grand Menagerie. That is a killer for Culture in my capital, where I built it. I focused on other culture-generating wonders like the Bone Palace, Temple of Temporance (I think that is it), and the best, Syliven's Lyre. I had no trouble getting legendary culture in my first 2 cities (I was playing at Epic speed), but the 3rd one was not looking good. Then, I remembered I could move the Lyre to another city - I moved it to the 3rd one, maxed out on culture for the civ, and did every thing I could to get culture in that 3rd city (I wish I could have built Disciples, etc.). I ended up with the Cultural victory before turn 800.

I have some problems with the Grigori in the late-game.

1. As a Neutral civ and no way to change that alignment, when the AC gets high that means the annoying spread of hell terrain. I guess I shouldn't let this bother me, but it does and I don't like not having the option to change my alignment to Good to avoid it. The only way I have been able to do it, is to build the Mercurian Gate, and switch to Basium, but then the bizarre AI of my former civ drives me crazy. So, that means building a bunch of Adepts, etc. with sanctify/spring to keep micromanaging the crap.

2. When the AC hits 100 I have been decimated of Adventurer/heroes by Armageddon. In one game I lost every one, including some powerful Beastmaster adventurer. I only kept the ^%$#@! Trojan Horse and the Baron, but lost the rest. Fortunately, I had saved their World Spell and reset the GP count. I was able to get 3 more adventurers, but that meant more money and more waiting.

3. What can you use for terraforming tiles with this civ? I miss the Druids. Genesis helps a bit, but I don't think you can get a unit with revitalize???

One other early strategy I use (not only with the Grigori) is to rush Cartography and build the Pact of Nilhorn. Those Stooges are three powerful HN early units. I like to sent them out to clear out some of those spreading ai civs who build right up to your borders. However, when they take damage, it can be forever (even with March) before they heal, and it is a long time with the Grigori before you can get a unit with Medic I. I don't think any of their units have Medic II which makes a big difference in healing too.

All in all, I love playing the Grigori as they are so different from the other civs with a lot of flavor. I didn't think I would like playing a civ without religions, but I just make sure my first Settler chooses a spot with access to at least 2 possible Happy resources, and some more where I will put the 2nd city. Then, you just have to go out and get those animals for your carnival! Building on a river lets you get a Brewery with happiness from rice, wheat and corn. It would be really great if that Adventurer's Guild gave you +1 happiness.

Thanks again for some great stuff on the Grigori.

 

[Wyrmhero]

I think the Nature III Spell is vitalize. Sure, it may cost an Archmage slot, but in the late game, its worth it.

 

[EverNoob]

You have to be aggressive if you want to bring the AC down. You can conquer AV cities and use a luonnotar to remove the AV from them. Or you could go destroy the infernals.

For early healing you should use courage (spirit I), and when you get mages regeneration (body II). The Grigori Medic's main role is to cure disease.

Sanctify (life I) removed hell terrain in 0.30, I'm guessing it still does in 0.31.

 

[Sarisin]

You have to be aggressive if you want to bring the AC down. You can conquer AV cities and use a luonnotar to remove the AV from them. Or you could go destroy the infernals.

For early healing you should use courage (spirit I), and when you get mages regeneration (body II). The Grigori Medic's main role is to cure disease.

Sanctify (life I) removed hell terrain in 0.30, I'm guessing it still does in 0.31.

I find that this mod is biased towards the AC increasing. That's fine. Yes, there are a few ways to move it down, but there are many things (events, ai civs razing cities, AV things, etc.) you cannot control. I don't think this is just for the Grigori, though. I really don't have a problem with the counter increasing and you just have to prepare your civ for the events that a high AC bring.

Courage provides very little healing, although it is helpful in battling units with Fear. I never thought of the mages' regeneration spell as I normally go for other types of mana. Yes, I agree the Medic is great for curing disease, but don't underestimate Medic I for healing in a stack. Medic II, if available, which it is not (I don't think any units have Medic III anymore). Life III is a possibility too, but you are talking archmages here and I need a healing unit mid-game. I just think the Grigori are at a healing disadvantage as civs that can get religions get an early unit with Medic I. The Grigori have to wait until Medicine.

Yes, Sanctify works, but using your arcane units as firemen and dealing with hell terrain is micromanagement at its worst. Oh well, I guess there is always that NO HELL TERRAIN option.

 

[Roghar]

Yeah, would be nice if adepts with Life just had an effect centred on them which passively reduced the hell counter in surrounding tiles. That effect could increase (in magnitude or range) for mages and archmages. That way they could be stationed to deal with hell terrain without moving and casting with several adepts each turn.

I have no idea how easy that is to do though. I guess an alternate would be a spell building, like Hope etc. If an adept with Life casts Sanctify a Sanctify building is put in place, which keeps hell counter at zero for all squares within that cities cultural boundaries.

 

[EverNoob]

I was under the impression that Courage and Medic I provided the same amount of healing, at least according to the civilopedia. Though I've never actually compared both directly in-game.

The body sphere of magic can be very useful, especially if you go the metal+arcane route since melee and arcane units are slow. Haste doubles their movement. It's true regeneration isn't as good in terms of raw healing compared to Medic II but it allows healing while on the move, a factor that can't be ignored.

The grigori medic can cast heal now so are more useful, I should've added that in my update.

For early game healing courage, mid-game regeneration, late game grigori medic.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply using sanctify alone to stop hell terrain. If you're aggressive vs the AV and keep the AC below 75, hell terrain doesn't spread into your lands. Then you can effectively use sanctify to revert land.

 

[feydras]

Thanks for the guide. I generally feel stunned by the choices when upgrading Adventurers and this helps to steer my choices. Particularly pointing out the disadvantages of going for Immortals or Beastmaster due to the Divine techs needed.

You mention the horseman line as being good for conquering. I've never gone far down that line except as an afterthought or as playing the Hippus. Any thoughts on the pros/cons of each line, chariot or horse archer?

 

[EverNoob]

You mention the horseman line as being good for conquering. I've never gone far down that line except as an afterthought or as playing the Hippus. Any thoughts on the pros/cons of each line, chariot or horse archer?

The combination of mounted units and raider trait is very strong, considering that it allows you to move 6 tiles/turn inside enemy territory. If you're going to rely heavily on mounted units, you should commit yourself to getting to warhorses before everyone and building the ride of nine kings. Then you should work your way to mithril working.

The disadvantage of the cavalry line of research is that it's exclusively military and doesn't yield any economy benefit. It's all about conquest, so only warmongers will want to research past trade. Using high withdrawal units (flanking promotion), you don't need to bring fire mages or catapults along, keeping your army very mobile.

The bulk of your forces should be chariots. Before mithril working, horse archers are useful as high withdrawal expendable units to wear the opponent down. After that the mithril chariot is superior in every way.

 

[Sarisin]

You are right about the new and improved Medic in the recent version. I built one for the first time yesterday and the Heal promotion is a big improvement. I still think the Grigori are at a big disadvantage vs. other civs when it comes to healing in the early game. I don't think Courage does much in the healing department. I think some units, like the Three Stooges which I always rush for, cannot even accept the Courage promotion. Werewolves too, but that is later.

One thing I will mention here that I am writing for the balance thread is that the latest version has taken a lot of the fun out of the Grigori for me. One of my late strategies was to build Shadows and send them out to wreak a little havoc in civs that have more pts. than I do.

Well, now, I can't see how the Grigori can build Shadows. Previously, you could research Deception and get the Council of Esus religion. You could even found the religion (but not convert) and get the holy building with a GP. Now, however, it appears the Grigori can no longer research Deception (or Honor to get Empyrean), so that means no Council of Esus and that means no Shadows. There is a VERY slight chance it could spread to Grigori lands, but not likely at all.

Also, no Trojan Horse which can be some fun.

Has anyone who played Cassiel in the new version seen this?

 

[xienwolf]

One way to help spread Esus into your lands is closing your borders to everyone who doesn't follow it or didn't found it.

Also you can find the Holy City and Gift a Great Prophet to the AI who built it to help ensure that Nox Noctis is constructed.

 

[Sarisin]

One way to help spread Esus into your lands is closing your borders to everyone who doesn't follow it or didn't found it.

Also you can find the Holy City and Gift a Great Prophet to the AI who built it to help ensure that Nox Noctis is constructed.

Both interesting suggestions, xienwolf.

However, based on my experience, ai civs (including the Sidar and Svartalfar) never seem to adopt CofE as their religion. You are right that you never see Nox Noctis constructed. I'm wondering even if I sent a Great Prophet (or Great Merchant, I find the Great Prophets hard to come by for Cassiel) to that city, and gifted it, if the ai would use it for that purpose!

Really, I think the Grigori are screwed now when it comes to building Shadows (and the Trojan Horse). Please see my post in the Balance Thread. thanks.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I vaguely remember that you are able to construct shrines, these yourself if one of your great people is in a rival city. Of course, I only remember testing this in a Permanent Ally (Basium's) cities, so it may still require it be the same team if not the same player.


I'm pretty sure they don't often adopt the religion because it doesn't spread much, in part because no one can spread it until they adopt it as a state religion. That really doesn't seem fair.

 

[Mewtarthio]

I, for one, would like to see some way to spread the Council of Esus. Maybe you'd have to spend extra money if it's not your state religion, or perhaps you'd spend the money and sacrifice the Nightwatch.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, if you really want to you could always edit yout SpellInfos.xml to remove the State Religion Pre-req on Spread Council of Esus. Then you can join the undercouncil, pass the Nightwatch Resolution, and spread Esus yourself.

 

[Caradoc]

I just discovered that if you play the Grigori with a different leader, they can acquire a religion. However, they cannot build Temples so the value is limited, but those Ancient Forests and leafy heroes sure are nice. I even got a Treant.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, I've noticed that too. A while back (.25?) Kael changed the limitation of Disciples and Temples to an effect of the Agnostic Trait to allow other leaders to play a religious Grigori, but for some reason he reverted to the old way when he made Shadow. I think I'll go back to making the trait block it instead in my modmod.

 

[Caradoc]

This would make Yvain a Grigori Druid.

 

[WCH]

Mmm, Grigori...

Love them. Sure, there's no religion... meh. Freaking hordes of heroes, each with a Great Commander attached to it... when I've played as them, my front line has been made up entirely of heroes. I don't even need to bring siege, because nothing can stop them. Phalanx with 230 XP, rising by one every turn... beautiful.

@Magister
The whole point of the Grigori's godlike Adventurers is to balance out the fact that they don't get any heroes through religion and the like... letting them have religion would overpower them.