SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

I made a quick test using one of our test game.

A GE can rush the Taj in 1 turn on a size 10 city.
On normal speed a GAge lasts 8 turns and with MoM 12.
So you're allowed for only 2 civics changes, since the limit is 5 turns. I revolted on the first turn (12) and can revolt again in (7). Just to be clear.

So, if we revolt to Nationalism along with other civics in the first turn of GAge, where i doubt we can have Rifling if i manage to take London on turn 237, we can be "forced" to keep this civic for a couple turns more than we like to get the most from it.

Please remember that we can draft only 3 units/turn in any city with enough pop and culture. This means that in any "Nationalist" turn we can choose 3 cities to draft.

I suppose that Moscow, StPete, Rostov and Novo are out of this fold (no draft, no whip, ever).

We still have a good number of cities which can be drafted, some of them on the islands.

Just to start the discussion on the civics, i think that we must revolt to
Representation, Nationalism and Mercantilism in the first turn
then after 8-10 turns to
Bureaucracy, FM and FR. I think Pacifism is too expensive.

We can also consider to insert Theocracy in the first change, but not sure.

Good to see the war going smoothly.

- I also forgot to mention the new GG we popped just after the war started. I settle him in Moscow, mainly for Oxford+Repr.

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Big mistake, we needed one more in CI to make 11XP units, which grants three promotions, which is a huge bonus over <10XP out of the gate. I should have said it again before you played, but I thought you were aware of the plan for the next GG.

We can revolt three times with MoM! First turn, 12 left, 5th turn, 7 left, and then one of the last turns. So if we can get rifling for the 2nd revolt, we can switch back to Bureau before it ends.

Why not draft in Moscow? It can do so and only lose coast tiles, which will be grown back. Also Rostov, no reason not to draft once there too. Novo too, getting those rifles is more important than one cottage less for some turns.
Only StP, since it is low food and needs hammers for other things and CI, since it gets so much bonus on hammers towards military units should be left alone.
Theo is a good idea when we draft, so the rifles can get enough XP for one promotion in barracks cities. But let's keep it for 2nd term so we can complete WS with Org Rel.

So let's do Rep+Merc first turn. 2nd round Nationhood+Theology. Lastly Bureau+Free Market+Free Religion.

He's in a coastal ice tile, completely surrounded by Novgorod's borders. Our Chinese iceball is safe. Just to be safe me too i moved a knight in Novo.

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Did you check if there is a border pop coming that may push him out of that spot? Either way, we should probably have one of our soon to be rifles ready to kill it once we DOW Roosevelt. And the knight for backup in case of freak RNG.

- On turn 232 i forgot to set the slider to 0 science (anyone can make a mistake, right? ), so now we have Railroad and Rifling is just started. MI founded in StPete, coal ready next turn, first MI exec ready in 3. WS will finish like without MI, in 9 turns.

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Did you put workers into position for Railroads? We want them on the mine tiles in StP to speed WS and execs, and connections to other cities from there to speed up executive spreading.

G is willing to trade SM

I think we must trade. This is a research game, after all.
Perhaps i can risk to wait 1-2 turns, but since Roos got those techs...

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I am not sure about the reasoning to trade for it now. We will lose a chunk of research when we get SM, and there is no way we beat Roosevelt to Physics if he already has Astro+SM. And even if there was a chance, we have much higher priority techs right now.
If we can trade now, we can also trade later, so let's do it later, when we would research it ourselves anyway.
What exactly is the risk of waiting?

Fluroscent said:

Did you put workers into position for Railroads? We want them on the mine tiles in StP to speed WS and execs, and connections to other cities from there to speed up executive spreading.

No, i've sent many of them to clean and improve near Hangzou. But they can be back building some rail in their path, to not lose movements

Sorry for the GG, but don't worry, next one is coming shortly


I am not sure about the reasoning to trade for it now. We will lose a chunk of research when we get SM, and there is no way we beat Roosevelt to Physics if he already has Astro+SM. And even if there was a chance, we have much higher priority techs right now.
If we can trade now, we can also trade later, so let's do it later, when we would research it ourselves anyway.
What exactly is the risk of waiting?

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The risk of waiting is that G can have those same techs from Roos and that we're forced to offer him SP.
Also, once we give him those 2 techs, he won't trade SM to Roos, since Astro is far lower on beakers. And no, Roos does not have SM, not at turn 233.

The hurry for the trade is due to this. We lose only 12bpt under Representation, 6 at present. Not a big deal, since we deny a trade to Roos (and he can even offer Nationalism+Astro and at this point we're in serious danger to lose the Physics race to G or Roos) and we gain a tech for 2 techs already known by the most of the AIs.

OK, I thought you meant Roos had SM. I guess G is willing to trade it at monopoly then.

We do lose more than you state though. There is also the two monastaries, and the 12bpt is before multipliers. So I'd guess it's closer to 50bpt average we lose.

Let's not worry about what we trade to G.

So the real issue is whether we fear Gandhi will trade SM to Roosevelt. I am not sure how it works, but atm. Roosevelt has monopoly on Astro, so he should not trade it.

But if you want to be safe, I guess it is ok to make the trade.

Fluroscent said:

OK, I thought you meant Roos had SM. I guess G is willing to trade it at monopoly then.

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No, i can't see how you thought this.
But you know, in BTS there are some monopoly techs which are traded by the AI.
I know for sure Monarchy is one of those, i can't remember now which ones. Sure i've never seen SM, probably because i was always too advanced to see an AI research it before me. And i can add that this game G is on a tech path not usual for him.
But that's it, let's try to get the most out of it.

We do lose more than you state though. There is also the two monastaries, and the 12bpt is before multipliers. So I'd guess it's closer to 50bpt average we lose.

Let's not worry about what we trade to G.

So the real issue is whether we fear Gandhi will trade SM to Roosevelt. I am not sure how it works, but atm. Roosevelt has monopoly on Astro, so he should not trade it.

But if you want to be safe, I guess it is ok to make the trade.

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You're right, i was forgetting the monasteries. And i built some more of them. But if you think to how much this tech costs, i'm happy to trade for it a bit sooner. With the GAge coming we're speaking of some 10 turns, in any case.

IIRC, the plan was to go for the Physics path after rifling, with a break for AL and Demo. To gain the free GS we can be forced to prioritize Physics, then go back to AL-Demo or viceversa.

In any case, the more i think, the more i'm convinced to do the trade.

Happy to see you approve. I'll wait a couple hours to see if anyone screams, then i'll try to finish my set.

I'm good with the trade

unclethrill said:

I'm good with the trade

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So, this is a majority!
Gonna play now.

BTW, where is pnp_dredd? It's awhile he doesn't post...

An update while playing.

Turn 237 now. London fell as planned. This is what i've seen arriving no losses. Granary, LH, market, bank. And ToA, MoM, AW and HG. GG and GP settled and ... an academy!

Made the trade with G, he's now researching Constitution. No new techs in sight, tradable or not.

Moscow is MI and just switched to Taj, to start the GA next turn.
Rifiling is due in 2, which i can probably keep thanks to the GAge.
Break even is 45% now.

The battle of London gave us another GG, which i settled in CI as planned.
Revolt to Merc+Repr in the first turn, then next revolt in 5 turns and the last one 5 turns later.

I'll stop as planned, turn 230. Try to take or to be ready to some more cities.

You guys have been busy in the past 12 hours

I'm busy catching up, so no strong objections. What are we trading to Gandhi for SM?

Who's playing next?

[edit: Oops, I was too slow - crossposted with the one above! Good going with the war Blub. I have a mental image of rampaging Russian soldiers sinking a million ships in London's harbours ...]

beestar said:

You guys have been busy in the past 12 hours

I'm busy catching up, so no strong objections. What are we trading to Gandhi for SM?

Who's playing next?

[edit: Oops, I was too slow - crossposted with the one above! Good going with the war Blub. I have a mental image of rampaging Russian soldiers sinking a million ships in London's harbours ...]

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ehe
i traded Edu+Nation. and obatained his WM+40g.

BTW, he's got a fallout free city, on a island (Madras). No need for an Indian iceball.

TS played, save uploaded.

Just the autolog, late here, more tomorrow.

Just this, for now: Roos does NOT want SM, nor SP according to F4. He's got Chem and Astro for so long that he can have researched himself. Physics is in serious danger, i think. And he can have traded for SP with Chur.

The graphs do not look exiciting. Ducks are impressive under any aspect. I think they have Sushi. They will get the gold at this pace.

I'm here and up to date, just busy and don't have much input at this stage. My strengths are cultural victories or early dominations, and as such I find it difficult to weigh up all of the post-liberalism options which are available.

We're rampaging on nicely, and seem to be focussing on things that allow us to tech fast.

I'm happy to take a turnset at some stage, of course with lots of input from you all at the planning stage.

Do we have a plan over Christmas? I'll be away from a Civ-capable PC from 21-31 December, and probably won't post much around the Christmas/boxing day weekend.

I think the autolog says all.
In the second part of my TS i've lost only one cannon (almost 80%) and 4 caravels.
2 were just sitting in the gulf near Rostov and both fell without glory. Then i attacked a lone caravel near Orenburg which was UNSCRATCHED by our 2 caravels. Not a scratch in the paint. Never seen a thing like this. Even a Destroyer have some damage after a double attack from caravels.

But probably this was where the RNG took its crazyness. I probably avoided more important losses on the ground.

Now, with Xmas so near, better plan our TSs. I've seen dredd is away 21 to 31, so unless UT is away too in that period, he can play next.

Please anyone posts his (no her here, right?) Xmas schedule.

For me, aside the 24 to 26 (my b.day, BTW) where i'll be busy, but not full, no great changes.

OK I have looked a bit on the save. Some thoughts.

War looks good. We can give up physics, it is not worth risking.
We are wasting a lot of gold by building grocers, and in particular markets. We should be building wealth or science multipliers instead.

Actually, it is absolutely cruciual that we build wealth at this stage. It is the only way to boost our tech rate while spreading mining inc.
We should discontinue all market/grocer that are less than 50% done, and discontinue all multiplier builds in non-cottage cities. Instead, We should build observatories, and universities in commerce cities and wealth otherwise.
Mining should be spread to cities that can help build execs first, that is wealth producers.

We can surely afford to not build more units except for CI now. 2-3 rifles from CI, then a bunch of drafted rifles, then ships from CI should be enough to complete conquering the continent.

We need an iceball for Churchill. It can go to the southern ice.

We should gift Economics to Gandhi, so we can get trade routes.

Schedule: If dredd can squeeze in a TS (maybe not a split one) before the 21st, that would be good I think. I can suggest a build plan if needed. Otherwise it's UT up.
I am mostly available during christmas if needed.

Building whealth without commerce multipliers seems an half-waste. I would add that grocers can be needed for health and markets for happiness in the biggest cities.

I'm building some university here and there, we can't build observatories for 3-4 turns. We need Astro for those.

I'm against break the builds to build whealth. IMO we must use our GAge to build structures. The game is still long.

OK, let's set Demo after Astro. We have 8 turns or less for next GP in Rostov and IIRC an executive is already on route for it. We can build the SoL in no time there.
Then we can see if Roos got Physics and we can give it a try. In case, we can break and switch to AL.

We have some CR3 mace. Can we consider to upgrade them for 140g?

I agree for the English iceball South of his soon-former homeland. We need also one for Roos. As i already said, no need for India, there's Madras completely clean.

When the GAge started, i was 1 turn to rifling, with 2 gold spared. But revolting to more expensive civics forced me to set to 0, to set 100 next turn.

We can probably whip something here and there and i think that caste is better for next or the last civics change.

I hope you approve i built some MG. They are great for defense, probably even better than MI, once fortified in a city.

Building whealth without commerce multipliers seems an half-waste. I would add that grocers can be needed for health and markets for happiness in the biggest cities.

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I don't understand this. The only commerce multiplier is Bureaucracy. If you are talking about gold multipliers, they do NOT multiply wealth building. That is plain final hammer output, which means the way to multiply wealth is building factories+plants.
This is why we want to run the highest possible average slider, so we can focus hammers on science multipliers and hammer boosters.
If running 100% science by building enough wealth, the market/grocer/bank does nothing at all.

Grocers for health is OK in large cities only, since lesser ones don't need it. Market happy boost is not needed at all with our high caps, and lategame they are only +1 anyway since fur/ivory/whale are obsoleted.
At least let's discontinue them in cities that have no cottages at all. The sugar/pig/hills city for instance should definitely not complete its grocer/market.

Also, the extra hammers from the golden age do not care what they are put towards, the multipliers do not change.

I'm building some university here and there, we can't build observatories for 3-4 turns. We need Astro for those.

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Yes, I was aware of that, but we want to build them when we can in commerce cities mostly, but also in the big production cities since they are needed for labs which are needed for space parts.
Let's try to work a bit on build plans, so we don't just build something here and there and instead build what is best everywhere.

OK, let's set Demo after Astro. We have 8 turns or less for next GP in Rostov and IIRC an executive is already on route for it. We can build the SoL in no time there.
Then we can see if Roos got Physics and we can give it a try. In case, we can break and switch to AL.

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Agreed. Rostov is a key city to spread Mining too, it should be able to squeeze out a handful of execs before Demo. Obvious place to put SoL of course.

We have some CR3 mace. Can we consider to upgrade them for 140g?

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I don't think we should. As I see it, our army will be plenty powerful, so putting gold towards it at a terrible rate is a bad idea.

I hope you approve i built some MG. They are great for defense, probably even better than MI, once fortified in a city.

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Yes, but we should use this to free some of the units on city defense to join the attack. A lot of cities with 3-4 defenders are safe enough now to be left with one MG or some even any old unit.
Also, we should bring one with our main stack when we turn back towards China/America, since we want to avoid them having even odds with rifles vs rifles. A MG in the stack will solve all stack defense issues.

Fluroscent said:

Yes, but we should use this to free some of the units on city defense to join the attack. A lot of cities with 3-4 defenders are safe enough now to be left with one MG or some even any old unit.
Also, we should bring one with our main stack when we turn back towards China/America, since we want to avoid them having even odds with rifles vs rifles. A MG in the stack will solve all stack defense issues.

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Sure, They must be promoted to Drill and some with medic1. I gave medic1 to a knight, 'cause i needed to heal some units before launch the final attack on Canterbury.
I think some medic1 well distributed is a key. The GG medic can't be anywhere and he's more needed in conquered cities to heal badly damaged units.

About your no-markets-no-grocers thing. We're around 50% and it gets worst with Corps payment and more cities conquered. So we're condamned to run wealth for 1 turn every 2, roughly. Changing to FM will help a bit, but not much.
When running 0 science, the commerce multipliers are a key.

It would be better for me if Dredd can play at least a partial set and I can play a full or extended set next week.