Looks like we're about to be busted... better keep pretending we're hard at work!
*spams posts*
SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Looks like we're about to be busted... better keep pretending we're hard at work!
*spams posts*
OSS played another 4 turns, from their current save, they did some sub-optimal moves
1. have not realized that Mercantilism is better than FM before a certain number of corporations are spread.
2. GT is totally unnecessary, staying on Nat hampers their research and also slow down their spreading of Sushi. With so many cities and so high happy cap, it's better to draft from everywhere than focusing on GT city.
3. NP -- I really don't think several more citizens are better than the 50% hammer bonus from CP, especially with Mine.
1. have not realized that Mercantilism is better than FM before a certain number of corporations are spread.
2. GT is totally unnecessary, staying on Nat hampers their research and also slow down their spreading of Sushi. With so many cities and so high happy cap, it's better to draft from everywhere than focusing on GT city.
3. NP -- I really don't think several more citizens are better than the 50% hammer bonus from CP, especially with Mine.
1. Or maybe they still think it's bugged like I did (used to disallow Corp spread).
2. Well, they seem to be following the old Murky Waters strategy of "big early cities" (no doubt because of last SGOTM where LTC suggested something like that) which would explain the few whips. While bigger cities equal more score, more smaller cities equal more output via the
!
If anything however, GT would have been more helpful right on the front. But that location is still pretty nice with all the food surplus.
Funny thing: there are planning to whip their executives... ouch. Slow going.
3. NE is purely to grow the city large to run a bunch of specialists as a second GP farm... obviously, as long as they keep drafting there, the building is wasted...
I agree with you though, that site is insane for production and is somewhat a mis-call for a GP farm.
Also surprised they focuses so much on Versailles despite having State Property for a while... since they are going Corporations, every city will have a CH... reduced distance to capital isn't so big for ~400 H.
2. Well, they seem to be following the old Murky Waters strategy of "big early cities" (no doubt because of last SGOTM where LTC suggested something like that) which would explain the few whips. While bigger cities equal more score, more smaller cities equal more output via the
!If anything however, GT would have been more helpful right on the front. But that location is still pretty nice with all the food surplus.
Funny thing: there are planning to whip their executives... ouch. Slow going.
3. NE is purely to grow the city large to run a bunch of specialists as a second GP farm... obviously, as long as they keep drafting there, the building is wasted...
I agree with you though, that site is insane for production and is somewhat a mis-call for a GP farm.
Also surprised they focuses so much on Versailles despite having State Property for a while... since they are going Corporations, every city will have a CH... reduced distance to capital isn't so big for ~400 H.
OSS
t27 AH>Writing
t35 TW
t40 Fishing (start library)
t48 lib>Settler,Myst>Med // lib is worth 4 beakers/turn
t61 PH>Math, Oracle almost finished, start another worker. lib worth 6 beaker/turn
t83 CoL>Currency, trade CS to Gandhi for bunch of small techs (which explains the faster tech pace of AIs in their game..might come to bite them), Still on 2 cities (gift to Gandhi), Oracle>CS 1000BC, academy in 11, Capital: 48.75b + 22H (after Bureau)
t92 Academy in 2, Calendar, settled 3rd city: Marble (no improved tiles though yet), just starting to SF the rice in Moscow
t100 Aesthetics, up to 4 cities with 75 bpt, 1st galley in progress
t152 Oxford in 1 bpt ~400 with it, war started, only 1 city taken: Paris since they went straight for it ignoring cities on route (costing precious turns), lost Music to Gandhi (fed him too much early), working on Engineering, 12 cities with capital size 15, up to 12 DoW against GH
PD
t32 Ag>AH>TW>Fishing>Writing
t47 2nd city up, contributing raw 2F1H3C
t63 Sailing>Masonry>Med>PH>CoL, just starting Oracle, Academy on the way
t83 Math>Oracle>CS, Academy in, still on 2 cities, capital: 68.25b + 22H (after Bureau)... earlier Academy was definitely powerful here
t92 Currency,GLH in, 3rd city down: silver, 4th city going down next turn: marble, 81 bpt, 1st galley in progress as well as exploring wb
t100 Metal Casting, 5th city about to go down (will raise bpt to ~110)
t152 Oxford nowhere near but 452 bpt without, war started 3 cities taken (2 French, 1 chinese) 4th this turn, won Music, working on Education, up to 20 cities with capital size 12 (been pumping settlers/workers for a bit) ... 220 total whip anger cooloff at this time
IMO, it's clear we played a better opening, once again gaining GLH! As you said, their biggest gain came from a ton of worker steals. With that, we could have REXed even harder to the south part of Moscow.
t27 AH>Writing
t35 TW
t40 Fishing (start library)
t48 lib>Settler,Myst>Med // lib is worth 4 beakers/turn
t61 PH>Math, Oracle almost finished, start another worker. lib worth 6 beaker/turn
t83 CoL>Currency, trade CS to Gandhi for bunch of small techs (which explains the faster tech pace of AIs in their game..might come to bite them), Still on 2 cities (gift to Gandhi), Oracle>CS 1000BC, academy in 11, Capital: 48.75b + 22H (after Bureau)
t92 Academy in 2, Calendar, settled 3rd city: Marble (no improved tiles though yet), just starting to SF the rice in Moscow
t100 Aesthetics, up to 4 cities with 75 bpt, 1st galley in progress
t152 Oxford in 1 bpt ~400 with it, war started, only 1 city taken: Paris since they went straight for it ignoring cities on route (costing precious turns), lost Music to Gandhi (fed him too much early), working on Engineering, 12 cities with capital size 15, up to 12 DoW against GH
PD
t32 Ag>AH>TW>Fishing>Writing
t47 2nd city up, contributing raw 2F1H3C
t63 Sailing>Masonry>Med>PH>CoL, just starting Oracle, Academy on the way
t83 Math>Oracle>CS, Academy in, still on 2 cities, capital: 68.25b + 22H (after Bureau)... earlier Academy was definitely powerful here
t92 Currency,GLH in, 3rd city down: silver, 4th city going down next turn: marble, 81 bpt, 1st galley in progress as well as exploring wb
t100 Metal Casting, 5th city about to go down (will raise bpt to ~110)
t152 Oxford nowhere near but 452 bpt without, war started 3 cities taken (2 French, 1 chinese) 4th this turn, won Music, working on Education, up to 20 cities with capital size 12 (been pumping settlers/workers for a bit) ... 220 total whip anger cooloff at this time
IMO, it's clear we played a better opening, once again gaining GLH! As you said, their biggest gain came from a ton of worker steals. With that, we could have REXed even harder to the south part of Moscow.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Congratulations, guys, especially with just two of you! My last two SGOTMs pretty quickly dwindled to just two players and I know it's a lot more work that way, even if you get along great with your wingman (which you guys did 
). Thanks for your post-game analyses, particularly Kossin's comparison post in 948. I don't suppose you'd have time to annotate posts 951 and 953 with some comments so that other teams (and lurkers like me) could gain more insight? 
I've already learned a lot from following along but I want more! 
I have one specific, minor, and rather odd question: It surprised me that you (I think it was Duckweed?) gave a March promo to a mace at one point. What was your thinking there, and under what circumstances would you advise using March? I've read that it can be good for fast movers like cavs and gunships, but the general view seems to be that it's usually a rather weak promo.
Great game!
). Thanks for your post-game analyses, particularly Kossin's comparison post in 948. I don't suppose you'd have time to annotate posts 951 and 953 with some comments so that other teams (and lurkers like me) could gain more insight? I've already learned a lot from following along but I want more! I have one specific, minor, and rather odd question: It surprised me that you (I think it was Duckweed?) gave a March promo to a mace at one point. What was your thinking there, and under what circumstances would you advise using March? I've read that it can be good for fast movers like cavs and gunships, but the general view seems to be that it's usually a rather weak promo.
Great game!
Hiding post... will edit comment in...
EDIT:
Thank you!
I'll probably go through those posts (951, 953) a bit to clarify them. (bold the comments for instance, remove some of the repeated stuff)
March: when you have a "weak" SoD in enemy territory, March serves 2 purposes:
-ensures you have a full health Mace at all times to defend your stack. For instance, when we went after Boston for the MoM, the March mace was the one at full health and with the most promotions was attacked by a Knight and died... saving the GG medic in the process. (remember, March units heal every turn regardless, at the rate of the highest medic present!)
-since we had a weak SoD (read: not many troops compared to defenders), it means you always have a healthy attacker at least in the stack... on the second turn of a city attack, you might face a tough new defender or old one that got promoted and usually hurt Maces will have bad odds. The march Mace always had good odds (though not always great).
It's not as "good" as CR for certain, but it is very convenient in some situations.
EDIT2: And I will try to finish the summary in post #2 sometime... maybe not as complete as SGOTM11 but should be something.
EDIT3: Oops, forgot to say... feel free (and any lurkers) to ask questions for clarification and we will try to answer them as best as we can. Also if you think we could have done something better, don't be afraid to say it "because we're Deity guys"... we all make mistakes and learn from them
EDIT:
Thank you!
I'll probably go through those posts (951, 953) a bit to clarify them. (bold the comments for instance, remove some of the repeated stuff)
March: when you have a "weak" SoD in enemy territory, March serves 2 purposes:
-ensures you have a full health Mace at all times to defend your stack. For instance, when we went after Boston for the MoM, the March mace was the one at full health and with the most promotions was attacked by a Knight and died... saving the GG medic in the process. (remember, March units heal every turn regardless, at the rate of the highest medic present!)
-since we had a weak SoD (read: not many troops compared to defenders), it means you always have a healthy attacker at least in the stack... on the second turn of a city attack, you might face a tough new defender or old one that got promoted and usually hurt Maces will have bad odds. The march Mace always had good odds (though not always great).
It's not as "good" as CR for certain, but it is very convenient in some situations.
EDIT2: And I will try to finish the summary in post #2 sometime... maybe not as complete as SGOTM11 but should be something.
EDIT3: Oops, forgot to say... feel free (and any lurkers) to ask questions for clarification and we will try to answer them as best as we can. Also if you think we could have done something better, don't be afraid to say it "because we're Deity guys"... we all make mistakes and learn from them
srad
King
I invited srad twice, how about third time?
Some day... I only want to commit if I'm pretty sure that I have the time to contribute.
Besides the reasons kossin mentioned, the most important reason was that the march promotion was needed at that time. After I took Bejing, there were 2 Chinese units in the BFC of Beijing, and we needed a couple of units to deal with them so that we could twist something useful from the peace treaty. Since all units were seriously wounded, therefore, I had to promote that Mace with march and send it with the medical GG.
I have been lurking both treads (OSS and PD) for a while, and the biggest difference I see between the two games is that you guys always had one clear plan going at a time. At OSS, I dont think a clear plan ever fully materialized in this game. At every stage, they have debated at lenght the pro's and con's of a decision, but the specific arguments seem to focus on the next turnset, and not a long term strategy.
My impression from watching both games is that OSS has done an amazing job of MM to get the absolute optimal immediate result out of every individual action (even when such a decision caused them to deviate from a longterm aim), whereas PD was much more focussed on keeping all actions consistant with the main plan, and not nearly as worried about optimizing the direct payoff of every action.
In many cases, the OSS discussions left me with the feeling that they could not see the forest for the trees.
I also have been wondering for a long while about how realistic their 5 to 6 GA plan is. I dont think I have ever even run a 3 person golden age because it seems to me that in order to get all the right GP in time you have to both start collecting them earlier, and significantly contaminate your pool while risking geting an unworkable combination. Of course, with the giant empires prescribed by this games rules, the golden ages are much better, but is it really realistic to be able to control the mix well enough? I expect the most likely is they get stuck with 4 or so wasted great people at the end.
My impression from watching both games is that OSS has done an amazing job of MM to get the absolute optimal immediate result out of every individual action (even when such a decision caused them to deviate from a longterm aim), whereas PD was much more focussed on keeping all actions consistant with the main plan, and not nearly as worried about optimizing the direct payoff of every action.
In many cases, the OSS discussions left me with the feeling that they could not see the forest for the trees.
I also have been wondering for a long while about how realistic their 5 to 6 GA plan is. I dont think I have ever even run a 3 person golden age because it seems to me that in order to get all the right GP in time you have to both start collecting them earlier, and significantly contaminate your pool while risking geting an unworkable combination. Of course, with the giant empires prescribed by this games rules, the golden ages are much better, but is it really realistic to be able to control the mix well enough? I expect the most likely is they get stuck with 4 or so wasted great people at the end.
That's my feeling as well.
To be fair to ourselves though, we did micro pretty extensively early on. However, around the time we got Metal Casting, we were down to 2 players and we felt we had to play more quickly to meet the deadline so I personally stopped caring so much for the micro exactness. Our strategy was set and we wouldn't save 20 turns of launch by spending a week discussing the micro of every city.
Our last GA was a 3-GP generated one...
Their plan for 2+3+4 (meaning they need 6 GPs) might be realizable but it will be very hard as they are saying, they already have some pretty contaminated GPP pools. Finally, that will force them under Caste+Pacifism... meaning slower Factory+Coal Plants, slower Executives spread (they are whipping some of them at the moment), slower research (we used Free Religion, 10% across 50 cities is pretty significant) and 6 cities dedicated to GPP for a while (the earlier ones to pop a GP will be done faster of course) meaning those cities can't contribute much to building wealth/research/infrastructure/military/Executives until they are done with specialists.
They can get a pretty good finish date but they'll have to be lucky with their GPs, I wish them the best of luck, I'll be lurking to see their reactions
To be fair to ourselves though, we did micro pretty extensively early on. However, around the time we got Metal Casting, we were down to 2 players and we felt we had to play more quickly to meet the deadline so I personally stopped caring so much for the micro exactness. Our strategy was set and we wouldn't save 20 turns of launch by spending a week discussing the micro of every city.
Our last GA was a 3-GP generated one...
Their plan for 2+3+4 (meaning they need 6 GPs) might be realizable but it will be very hard as they are saying, they already have some pretty contaminated GPP pools. Finally, that will force them under Caste+Pacifism... meaning slower Factory+Coal Plants, slower Executives spread (they are whipping some of them at the moment), slower research (we used Free Religion, 10% across 50 cities is pretty significant) and 6 cities dedicated to GPP for a while (the earlier ones to pop a GP will be done faster of course) meaning those cities can't contribute much to building wealth/research/infrastructure/military/Executives until they are done with specialists.
They can get a pretty good finish date but they'll have to be lucky with their GPs, I wish them the best of luck, I'll be lurking to see their reactions
Here's one of their long term plan. IIRC we reached this goal on T241. With GA, their BPT at full science slider is about half as ours in the same stage. Moreover, our empire are bigger and better prepared with more infrastructures. If they could accomplish this goal on T250, that's quite an achievement.
Yea, I've been thinking the same.
Also, their 5GP-Golden Age isn't very realistic... they want to trigger it with the GE from Fusion
They should realize that even if they did get their bpt up to 10,000 by T235, they won't get to Fusion in 7 turns, when they want their last GA...
Also, our gold-generated at 0% is HUGE compared to theirs... more infra from more whips
Also, their 5GP-Golden Age isn't very realistic... they want to trigger it with the GE from Fusion
They should realize that even if they did get their bpt up to 10,000 by T235, they won't get to Fusion in 7 turns, when they want their last GA...
Also, our gold-generated at 0% is HUGE compared to theirs... more infra from more whips
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