Siege Unit Analysis Post Patch

BomberEscort

BomberEscort

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1.0.0.621 Catapult (OLD) - 14 :c5rangedstrength:
+10% vs Cities (PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE by Default)
+35% Max vs Cities (w/PROMOTION_SIEGE)

1.0.1.135 Catapult (NEW) - 11 :c5rangedstrength:
+30% vs Cities (PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT by Default)
+55% Max vs Cities (w/PROMOTION_SIEGE)

PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT and PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE are not lost with upgrade

OLD Catapult vs Cities = 15.4 :c5rangedstrength:
NEW Catapult vs Cities = 14.3 :c5rangedstrength:

MAX OLD Catapult vs Cities = 18.90 :c5rangedstrength:
MAX NEW Catapult vs Cities = 17.05 :c5rangedstrength:

For Cannons and later (upgraded) they will have both PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT and PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE
For 1.0.1.135, siege units upgraded from pre-cannon units will have a +30% vs cities.

MAX Upgraded NEW Cannon = 42.90 :c5rangedstrength: (26 * (1 + (0.10 + 0.30 + 0.25)))
MAX Upgraded OLD Cannon = 35.10 :c5rangedstrength: (26 * (1 + (0.10 + 0.25)))

Promotions available for Siege units:
PROMOTION_EMBARKATION
PROMOTION_DEFENSIVE_EMBARKATION
PROMOTION_INSTA_HEAL
PROMOTION_ACCURACY_1 (Open Ranged Attack +20%)
PROMOTION_ACCURACY_2
PROMOTION_ACCURACY_3
PROMOTION_BARRAGE_1 (Rough Ranged Attack +20%)
PROMOTION_BARRAGE_2
PROMOTION_BARRAGE_3
PROMOTION_SIEGE (+25% City Attack)
PROMOTION_VOLLEY (+25% Attacking Fortified Units)
PROMOTION_COVER_1 (+25% Defense against Ranged Attacks)
PROMOTION_COVER_2
PROMOTION_MARCH
PROMOTION_LOGISTICS (Extra Attack and Can Move After Attack)
PROMOTION_RANGE
PROMOTION_INDIRECT_FIRE
PROMOTION_MORALE
PROMOTION_FASTER_HEAL

CONCLUSIONS

Pre-Cannon Siege Units
Weaker vs Units and Cities post patch

Cannon Siege Units and above
Same vs Units post patch
Default Siege vs Cities same post patch
Upgraded Siege vs Cities +30% post patch

Keep those old siege units alive!

COMMENTARY
I can't help but think that Firaxis' intent was to keep the pre-Cannon values the same when attacking cities, but they forgot about the +10% vs cities all siege units get from PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE.

For example, pre-Cannon siege units have access to a new promotion, PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT. This grants +30% vs Cities and replaces PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE (which gave +10%)

Catapult was 14 and is now 11 [11 * 1.3 = 14.3 vs Cities/11 vs Units]
Trebuchet was 20 and is now 16 [16 * 1.3 = 20.8 vs Cities/16 vs Units]
Ballista was 18 and is now 14 [14 * 1.3 = 18.2 vs Cities/14 vs Units]

This works well to keep the strength vs Cities the same as pre-patch, but weaker vs units, assuming pre-patch, siege units didn't have +10% vs cities.

To accomplish what I think they intended, they need to buff PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT +10% (making it +40%). As it is now, pre-cannon siege units are inferior to post-patch in every aspect, and only have an advantage vs cities post-cannon, if you can keep them alive long enough to upgrade them.

One unintended consequence of the buff would be that Songhai Cavalry would have +40% vs Cities, since they use PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT. Originally, pre-1.0.1.135, they were the only unit to use this promotion...
 
I really wished they'd nerfed artillery too, they're still far too devastating against rifles and infantry.

I also think that it was a mistake for them to go to a method of using promotions for all unit properties, it just becomes so very, very messy with upgrade lines.
 
I really don't like this. Siege units are still far too strong against units and now the modern ones get extra bonuses against cities if they were upgraded from ancient ones? Weird, probably just an oversight.

Cannons don't need iron, Cats and Trebs still do
 
alpaca said:
Cannons don't need iron, Cats and Trebs still do
Click to expand...
"The old bronze cannon trick!"

The pre-cannon changes don't seem to match what we were told would happen: siege weaker against units but stronger against cities, not weaker against both. I guess because archers and horsemen have been nerfed, siege units become more important despite being weaker. [As you said elsewhere, they are still not necessary.]
 
HermannLombard said:
"The old bronze cannon trick!"

The pre-cannon changes don't seem to match what we were told would happen: siege weaker against units but stronger against cities, not weaker against both. I guess because archers and horsemen have been nerfed, siege units become more important despite being weaker. [As you said elsewhere, they are still not necessary.]
Click to expand...

Not sure about that. Since they've upgraded city heal rate it's become absurdly hard to pound a city down to an invadable level with anything else. Even multiple frigates.
 
hellboy909 said:
Not sure about that. Since they've upgraded city heal rate it's become absurdly hard to pound a city down to an invadable level with anything else. Even multiple frigates.
Click to expand...

The easiest methods are:

1. Tech lead melee. If the melee is stronger than the city strength and you have 3+, you can generally take it w/o losses, esp when great generals are involved. Cookie cutter speed rifling from civ IV makes a comeback in civ V!
2. Siege. With 2 appropriate era siege units pounding on the city, it won't last long.
3. Air power. A couple fighters + bombers can drop even fairly strong cities health rapidly. Combined with the mobility of modern units, these can be VERY fast wars if you have a dominant air lead, esp because air breaks the 1UPT rule and rarely struggles with positioning at ALL
4. Nukes. Tried and true, dominant in every iteration of civ to some extent, the age-old stack killers are very expensive now, but still good at what they do. The captured city might be a little sub-ideal for use though, so doing this depends on your goals. Usually, however, when you're talking nukes you're talking and endgame dom push.

Seriously though, pound a 16-20 str city with longswords or a sub 26 city with rifles and you'll drop it.
 
Yeah, the moment I looked at the numbers I realized they probably made a math error... it didn't seem like they intended to nerf siege vs cities. It's very similar to an early iteration of the balance - combat mod... reduce ranged strength to 80% while increasing promotions to make them 100% vs cities. Don't forget modifiers like great generals and the Morale promotion, I think those still have an effect on vs city damage. When you factor those in, siege units are now significantly worse since modifiers act off base strength, so all the promotions they receive got nerfed 20%.

The primary issue is I don't think anyone felt an early catapult beeline was overpowered compared to the swordsman/horseman tech tracks (same with trebuchets). I believe a better solution is to reduce vs unit effectiveness of catapults/trebuchets/cannon -20%, artillery -25%, and leave rocket artillery untouched (they're already underwhelming vs cities compared to modern armor).

However, rather than simply nerfing siege, I feel it's better to rebalance them worse vs units and better vs cities. (Otherwise they're often more trouble than they're worth... they already get a damage penalty from being ranged, gain experience much slower, and require setup.)

Another issue is the patch weakens them against fortified defenders, which doesn't really make sense... they should be good against fortifications! I feel it's worthwhile to make them better vs fortified (like vs cities). Then there's the problem that the siege promotion is mostly worthless for most units... not really worth delaying your promotion track towards March. Buffing the siege promotion also acts as a great nerf to mounted units, since they can't get that promo (better than simply reducing mounted unit strength to underpowered status).

To achieve all this in the standard situation where the unit has the default promotion, siege promotion, and great general bonus, it comes out to:

Base :c5rangedstrength: = 80%
Default promo = 100% vs cities, 50% vs fortified
Siege promo = 40% vs cities
Volley promo = 40% vs fortified

The result of this is siege units deal about 20% less damage to cities than equal-tech melee units (in vanilla it's about half), but are safer since they don't take damage in return.

  • Siege
    attachment.php

    Changes from vanilla are listed above. To put it another way, if you did 10 damage to cities in vanilla with a Great General and Siege I promotion, now you do 13 damage. Some of this was done in patch 1.0.1.135 (for Catapults and Trebuchets) yet cannon and artillery are the bigger problem.
    • This is done by reducing base damage and improving the Siege, Demolish, and Volley promotions.
    • Damage is less than vanilla if the city has defensive buildings, (see City Defenses below).
    • Rocket Artillery are excluded from the -20% base strength nerf, as they're already significantly weaker than Modern Armor.
    .
  • Siege I Promotion
    40% vs Cities (up from 25%).
    Requires Shock/Drill I (down from II) or Cover I.
    (different from the Demolish promotion siege units get automatically)
Click to expand...
 
BomberEscort said:
1.0.0.621 Catapult (OLD) - 14 :c5rangedstrength:
+10% vs Cities (PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE by Default)
+35% Max vs Cities (w/PROMOTION_SIEGE)

1.0.1.135 Catapult (NEW) - 11 :c5rangedstrength:
+30% vs Cities (PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT by Default)
+55% Max vs Cities (w/PROMOTION_SIEGE)

PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT and PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE are not lost with upgrade

OLD Catapult vs Cities = 15.4 :c5rangedstrength:
NEW Catapult vs Cities = 14.3 :c5rangedstrength:

MAX OLD Catapult vs Cities = 18.90 :c5rangedstrength:
MAX NEW Catapult vs Cities = 17.05 :c5rangedstrength:

For Cannons and later (upgraded) they will have both PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT and PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE
For 1.0.1.135, siege units upgraded from pre-cannon units will have a +30% vs cities.

MAX Upgraded NEW Cannon = 42.90 :c5rangedstrength: (26 * (1 + (0.10 + 0.30 + 0.25)))
MAX Upgraded OLD Cannon = 35.10 :c5rangedstrength: (26 * (1 + (0.10 + 0.25)))

Promotions available for Siege units:
PROMOTION_EMBARKATION
PROMOTION_DEFENSIVE_EMBARKATION
PROMOTION_INSTA_HEAL
PROMOTION_ACCURACY_1 (Open Ranged Attack +20%)
PROMOTION_ACCURACY_2
PROMOTION_ACCURACY_3
PROMOTION_BARRAGE_1 (Rough Ranged Attack +20%)
PROMOTION_BARRAGE_2
PROMOTION_BARRAGE_3
PROMOTION_SIEGE (+25% City Attack)
PROMOTION_VOLLEY (+25% Attacking Fortified Units)
PROMOTION_COVER_1 (+25% Defense against Ranged Attacks)
PROMOTION_COVER_2
PROMOTION_MARCH
PROMOTION_LOGISTICS (Extra Attack and Can Move After Attack)
PROMOTION_RANGE
PROMOTION_INDIRECT_FIRE
PROMOTION_MORALE
PROMOTION_FASTER_HEAL

CONCLUSIONS

Pre-Cannon Siege Units
Weaker vs Units and Cities post patch

Cannon Siege Units and above
Same vs Units post patch
Default Siege vs Cities same post patch
Upgraded Siege vs Cities +30% post patch

Keep those old siege units alive!

COMMENTARY
I can't help but think that Firaxis' intent was to keep the pre-Cannon values the same when attacking cities, but they forgot about the +10% vs cities all siege units get from PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE.

For example, pre-Cannon siege units have access to a new promotion, PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT. This grants +30% vs Cities and replaces PROMOTION_CITY_SIEGE (which gave +10%)

Catapult was 14 and is now 11 [11 * 1.3 = 14.3 vs Cities/11 vs Units]
Trebuchet was 20 and is now 16 [16 * 1.3 = 20.8 vs Cities/16 vs Units]
Ballista was 18 and is now 14 [14 * 1.3 = 18.2 vs Cities/14 vs Units]

This works well to keep the strength vs Cities the same as pre-patch, but weaker vs units, assuming pre-patch, siege units didn't have +10% vs cities.

To accomplish what I think they intended, they need to buff PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT +10% (making it +40%). As it is now, pre-cannon siege units are inferior to post-patch in every aspect, and only have an advantage vs cities post-cannon, if you can keep them alive long enough to upgrade them.

One unintended consequence of the buff would be that Songhai Cavalry would have +40% vs Cities, since they use PROMOTION_CITY_ASSAULT. Originally, pre-1.0.1.135, they were the only unit to use this promotion...
Click to expand...

they are slightly weaker now vs cities, but since horses are terrible vs cities, cities heal faster, and other melee are btwn 20-65% weaker (no terrain bonsues vs cities), overall the siege units have gotten a huge buff comparatively speaking. I don't worry about ai assaults on my border cities unless 1. I can't afford walls, and 2. they brought some siege. the ai typically won't bother to attack now if it knows it can't win, and 6 warriors/horsemen vs a 16 combat power city is a slaughter now. use that same scenario as 2 horse/2 warrior/2 siege and you can take a few cities with that.
 
alpaca said:
I really don't like this. Siege units are still far too strong against units and now the modern ones get extra bonuses against cities if they were upgraded from ancient ones? Weird, probably just an oversight.

Cannons don't need iron, Cats and Trebs still do
Click to expand...

I find this somewhat ironic
 
alpaca said:
I really don't like this. Siege units are still far too strong against units and now the modern ones get extra bonuses against cities if they were upgraded from ancient ones? Weird, probably just an oversight.

Cannons don't need iron, Cats and Trebs still do
Click to expand...

this. siege units own the field currently, and they shouldn't. Really anything pre-cannon should be a terrible weapon out in the field, and should only be used effectively against cities. One time the AI killed a swordsman of mine with a 1 shot kill from a trebuchet, that should never happen in any game.
 
Shiggs713 said:
this. siege units own the field currently, and they shouldn't. Really anything pre-cannon should be a terrible weapon out in the field, and should only be used effectively against cities. One time the AI killed a swordsman of mine with a 1 shot kill from a trebuchet, that should never happen in any game.
Click to expand...

was that prepatch at least? they are only 16 str in the field, even with your sword on flatland a 16 vs 10 would never one shot you. now a 20 vs 7.33 pre-patch should do that quite often. did the treb have 3 blitz promo?

honestly when you factor in the iron requirement for siege they'd better be decent in the field as well. if they're going to nerf them any more they should take out the iron requirement. and crossbows are competitive with cats and trebs in the field plus are resourceless.
 
The way I see it, the ideal roles for each unit type to shine should probably be:

Mounted - in the field, unless their counters are present
Ranged - support, decent at all roles
Siege - lowering city defenses
Footsoldiers - final city capture, best in field if mounted counters are present

This is what I've personally been aiming for in my mods.
 
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