Let's play Deity: Hatshepsut

yea thats what i ment, you get earlier action inside the border

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hou jing said:

I'm sure this is an oft-asked question, but how do I save this so I can play at a lower level? I don't even know how to save as a worldbuilder save.

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1) Load the save
2) Press "control" + w to activate World Builder
3) Select "save" from the options in the top right corner of the screen.
4) Press Control w again to exit world builder
5) Start up the newly created WB file as a scenario and select your difficulty (if you want to change game speed or any other options start it as a Custom Scenario.

Note that doing this strips out the AI's normal starting bonuses for levels above Noble, in order to add them back in you can edit the WB file with notepad.

vranasm said:

you will have 2 unforested tiles for improvement with mining and corn with agri, which will give you enough time to tech BW?

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You mean 4 right? The grass hill under the settler can be mined prior to BW(also the PH we have right now), which could prove very useful (i.e. push back BW a bit).

huerfanista said:

Ok..... you lose 1 turn, 1 forest, 1 forested plains hill, 1 forested grass hill. I can't wait to see what I'm missing here.

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Let's look at the "1 turn lost".

So I lose 1 turn on t0...
-4 hammer on worker, -9 commerce
on t15 however, the worker moves 1 tile and gets stuck on forest. +3 food
t16 start improving corn

Moving:
settle on t1.
Work flood plain gaining back 2 commerce (t1 and t2... t3 is the border pop for SIP).
On t16 the worker can move directly on the corn so it ends up being done on the same turn.

Big difference is thus 3F1H7C... not bad.

There is more of course that leads me to the 1W decision.

1 forest lost but from the looks of it, there are plenty to go about... and it opens up one tile to mine pre-BW.

xenex said:

Nice start too bad that spice isn't a non calendar food resource, but with those gems, you cant really complain.

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There are flood plains at least!

ColossusXXIII said:

if u move 1w, u could maybe tuck in a 2nd city along the same river and get the rice... I'm not sure if that's why you made that choice. Good luck

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That definitely crossed my mind, having a close by early city that can grow and get some production/trees to chop workers/settlers is always good.

FlyingSwan said:

im guessing your thinking behind moving 1W would be to possibly to gain another FP and possibly gain a strategic resource in the BFC(the tile west of the gems).

Seems like a good plan,be nice if its horses.

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From the looks of it, yes, there are more flood plains. Also, there probably isn't anything else in the current BFC due to trees, moving W could gain more valuable tiles.

UWHabs said:

1W seems risky.

I mean, the upside is there. You can see that you're losing absolutely nothing of value, and there's a chance of gaining something. But you lose a turn. If 1W was a plains hill, the choice is obvious.

Or is it the fact that you lose a turn at the start, but your worker loses a turn anyways moving to the hill then grassland, so all you really lose is 1 turn of commerce?

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See above for difference of t0 vs t1 settling.

Then there's also the fact that there are 4 plains hills (-8 food).. which means 2 farmed flood plains and the corn yields a 0 food surplus. I'd like to split those hills a bit.

There are still at least 5 hills settling 1W plus the gems hill. Also gives away a plains tile for another flood plain from the looks of it.

Kid R said:

If it wasn't for war chariots surely mining, BW would be the best plan with all that forest around. If the "obvious" lol planned move 1W is to get more unforested tiles to use pre-BW, burning a turn and a choppable forest would seem like rather an all-or-nothing gamble on horse, so I suspect it's something more subtle than that.

Maybe kossin can see which way the river's flowing and/or deduce something about where the coast is? Can't see in the screenie but maybe there is another floodplain 2SW, which would be somewhat attractive I suppose.

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I'm thinking long term mostly. SIP has a lot of production but poor food capacity with that many hills (too much brown). There does seem to be another fp SW and moving W opens up a close by city to take advantage of the 5F1C rice.

Both rivers are flowing west so indeed it would suggest coast is closer west than east.
It could make a seafood unusable but that's a gamble I'm willing to take.

iggymnrr said:

I'm not too enamored of brown hills with low food. Looks like an extra fp by settling 1W. Can't really tell for sure from the screen shot. Also looks like another green hill west too.

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Yup yup!

Yoshi1 said:

Hathsi my love, now i wish i still had the game installed

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You can always re-install

Duckweed said:

Possible resources from 4 tiles and 1 more FP by moving 1W makes the moving tempting, however, the benefit is not very obvious since you also lose 1 turn and your capital might have less blocking values. Usually I will move, but the result is really luck dependent.

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This sums it up perfectly.

I'm slightly less worried by the blocking value however because Hatty is creative, despite the greater risk of coast to the west.

wige said:

Moving creates a 3rd improvable tile after mining/agri, giving flexibility over BW/AH as a research choice. This will in turn clearly be affected by the tiles to the west hidden in fog. (scope for more resouces too)

Additionaly,this leaves space for a city 1W of the rice, being Deity, I assume you want an early, cheap (maintenance) close city to serve as a unit/settler/worker pump depending upon local surroundings/neighbours.

also, even more of a guess, the lay of the floodplains, to my eye, suggests 1 or 2 more.

Good luck, interested to see how it plays out. I've learned loads from your DR's.

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Most correct. However, I wouldn't plant a city 1W of the rice, this wastes a very good Grass Hill. Either SW or NW (depending on what the warrior reveals).

joanne said:

Yay kossin's back! Any plans on continuing your DRs? Obvious first move before deciding where to settle should be to move the warrior first to reveal as many tiles as possible move warrior on PH to the SW perhaps?

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I've officially quit the DR (see bullpen) as I don't have the time to go on...

This game is while I have some time during the holidays & not so much caught up with SGOTM.

Since I'm planning on moving W, I'll wait to move the warrior.

bobbyboy29 said:

If you really loved hatty she'd still be your avatar! I demand one round a day!

1W sounds great, my rationale: Kossin said he thinks its better and he's a better player than I am, therefore he must be right!

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But I'm on team Plastic Ducks! Once the competition is over (and before SGOTM13!) I'll revert back

dirtyparrot said:

I'm going to guess that's because for the extra FP, to be able to mine that hill, for the potential to have a strat resource pop in your BFC (although you're CRE, so you wouldn't have to wait as long), and you're not really losing a turn from moving (your settler or worker would need to burn a turn to reach the corn). You've also go the added bonus of probably putting yourself in better barb spawnbusting spot from your cultural borders although that might come at a cost of 1 mine (can tell from looking at the screenshot if there's a mine 2S) and improving the corn early for potentially your 2nd city.

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Good summary.

stopstopp said:

Finally, another chance to get some more knowledge from Kossin!

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Hopefully!

Yoshi1 said:

and because barbs attack when you work a tile in the outer bfc

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Not too concerned about that right away but yes, it will add some safety on the corn.

ColossusXXIII said:

Is that what triggers barbs? I thought it was turn dependent, for example marathon/deity/raging barbs they show up between turn 45-50 from my experience. Or do you mean that your civ just becomes more of a target, when working outer bfc tiles?

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Barbs will attack before the # of cities on the landmass reaches the critical point IF they can pillage/attack a unit on the same turn.

RRRaskolnikov said:

I don't think it is it.

1) THere is barb creation which is triggered by turns, number of cities on home continent, and level...
2) If a barb see an improvement in the bfc outer ring, there is an increased chance he will move in your border in order to pillage it. (maybe this isn't a probability but a certain thing, need to check)

fwiw: in deity/normal, you don't want to pop huts after turn 10

@Kossin: in place! Less gambling, more chopping! (and better levee )... furthermore the tiles you would get by moving will be soon enough in your borders (before second city or close to this time anyway)

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Flood plains in the 3rd ring don't exactly help with food!
You lose some... you win some.

hou jing said:

I'm sure this is an oft-asked question, but how do I save this so I can play at a lower level? I don't even know how to save as a worldbuilder save.

Click to expand...

Open worldbuilder, select the correct option top right "save as worldbuilder file"... launch the wb file and select your difficulty. However, the AIs will start with all of their units unless you do some modifications.

TheMeInTeam posted a Customization and Creation guide for maps in the Strategy Article subforum, you can probably find it on the first few pages for more details.

kossin said:

You mean 4 right? The grass hill under the settler can be mined prior to BW(also the PH we have right now), which could prove very useful (i.e. push back BW a bit).

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I meant 2 unforested hills (the one on which you're standing included) and corn with agri. So basically 3 tiles.
I don't see unforested PH, you're standing on GH (you mean the one 2s of settler in fog? tough to judge if it's forest).
One small added bonus is that worker starts to work on corn farm the turn you finish him basically gaining 1T which could offset the 1t lost.

I don't see there the FP that everyone sees...has to be my eyes though...

And I admit I would probably SIP without much thinking usually, but moving seems definitely better, you can check AH for horses before BW and still have good production.

i've played a bit

vranasm said:

I meant 2 unforested hills (the one on which you're standing included) and corn with agri. So basically 3 tiles.
I don't see unforested PH, you're standing on GH (you mean the one 2s of settler in fog? tough to judge if it's forest).
One small added bonus is that worker starts to work on corn farm the turn you finish him basically gaining 1T which could offset the 1t lost.

I don't see there the FP that everyone sees...has to be my eyes though...

And I admit I would probably SIP without much thinking usually, but moving seems definitely better, you can check AH for horses before BW and still have good production.

Click to expand...

See attached screenshot. It's 1680*1050 for more details, rotated 45 degrees and zoomed in.


~~~

So the best reason why I'm moving: not enough food in place.

Turn 0 - Turn 16 [4000BC-3360BC]

I will post 1680*1050 screenshots for more details. Tell me if you prefer this or regular 1024*840.

As I said, I moved the settler 1W and settled. I was pleased to find another flood plains and even more pleased to find a riverside pigs!


Instead of a quick Mining beeline for the gems, I chose Animal Husbandry to:

1. Improve the pigs
2. Reveal horses
3. Didn't want to research Hunting for the 20% discount of pre-requisite
4. Improve pigs as my first tile

The warrior was sent south east to see if there was any merit in settling a city south west of the rice ( it's mostly brown tiles ).

Meet a close neighbor on turn 3... doesn't get much closer than this.


The good news is that since he is so close, I will run into fewer barb problems than otherwise.

I played on until the worker was produced, trying to scout as much land as possible before barbs show up.


Animal Husbandry revealed horses just outside my BFC... great news!

What I know so far:

1. No zealots on the map (buddhism and hinduism went very late)
2. I have close by horses that can be improved in 10 turns when the borders pop
3. Therefore, Archery won't be necessary and settling copper isn't crucial
4. Minimal barb protection can be used
5. There are at least 2 more AIs on this continent (I have EP advantage on Mansa, he only put 1 EP towards me for a while already)
6. I might have quite some space to the north
7. Where Mansa's capital is and that he settled away from me

What do I want to do next in terms of cities?
There are a few options available...

• There's marble which is always good for a Literature beeline (keep trees to chop out TGL)... I will require a warrior or War Chariot to go get a look.
• There's the rice spot just east of the capital that will be a good help to pump settlers/workers with plenty of forests.
• There's another gem north of the capital.
• There's the horse NW of the capital. (probably together with horses, could borrow the corn from capital if no other food around)

On Deity you want a second city to help with chops/whips fast but you also want to block land ASAP.

Based on what we can decipher so far, this eliminates both northern sites as they appear to be out of danger.

We don't have information about marble just yet... so it must be the rice. Where exactly remains to be decided as I acquire some more map knowledge, but rice in the first ring is very likely to kick-start it ASAP. An option would be to grab the marble in the 3rd culture ring but we'll have to see.

What to do in terms of research
I queued Mining next, obviously for the gems.
What I do with the start will dictate the next tech.
Do I attempt an Oracle slingshot or do I expand fast?

Since Mansa is so close, I am very tempted to expand fast despite my access to high commerce early.

Therefore, Bronze Working would be a good choice next.

Following that, I would say Writing for the moment (open borders, trade routes, creative libraries), but we will see after Bronze Working.

The chances of grabbing Oracle are pretty thin anyway, and I'd likely only be able to get Monarchy. With Mansa in the game, I can trade for it pretty easily... maybe I'll change my mind if wonders go slow...

Worker micro
Easy:
t16 Move to corn, irrigate+cancel
t17 Move to pigs, pasture for 4 turns
t21 move to corn irrigate for 4 turns
t25 Move to gems
t26 Mine gems for 4 turns
t30 move to corn road for 1 turn
t31 move to horses pasture for 4 turns
t35 road horses for 2 turns
t37 road corn

will you selftech IW? to the northeast there is plenty of jungles around river with dyes... be it on emperor I would definitely aim that way with 3rd/4th city.

Nice trick with the irrigate/cancel, does it work only if you have 1 out of the 2 moves available?

The rice spot is "clear 2nd city", but I am not sure if north or south of it is better (NW or SW, I would probably choose SW to free dyes for another city) am interested to see how I will meet with your thoughts

vranasm said:

will you selftech IW? to the northeast there is plenty of jungles around river with dyes... be it on emperor I would definitely aim that way with 3rd/4th city.

Nice trick with the irrigate/cancel, does it work only if you have 1 out of the 2 moves available?

The rice spot is "clear 2nd city", but I am not sure if north or south of it is better (NW or SW, I would probably choose SW to free dyes for another city) am interested to see how I will meet with your thoughts

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IW: there are a lot of non-jungle tiles so I don't feel an urgent need for it right now.

Cancel worker actions: always works, just select the worker and hit spacebar (or click the correct icon... I usually just hit spacebar).

2nd city: more green tiles north, more forests south and more brown tiles. It's a tough call, short term south is better and blocks more so that might influence the choice.

kossin said:

I
Cancel worker actions: always works, just select the worker and hit spacebar (or click the correct icon... I usually just hit spacebar).

Click to expand...

my question aimed more to the when actually shortens the work of the action (I suppose that's why you did irrigate on corn and cancel it same turn... I tried it sometimes and it seemed to me it works only if you have the "action point" to spare), probably some old knowledge buried 4 years ago...

The worker only performs the action if he has movement points... it of course does not work if you don't have movement points.

In this case, I am merely cancelling the action because I want to improve the pigs first... they are 6F1C whereas the corn is 6F.

Farm is 5 turns, pasture 4 turns... therefore 1 or the other takes the same amount of time to complete despite the pasture being a full turn away.

Turn 16 - Turn 22 [3360BC - 3120BC]

I followed the outline I prepared in the last set and stopped after Mining.

The following turn I was met by 2 more civilizations, confirming the EP spending of Mansa. Oh and I focused my espionage on Mansa... this will be the most useful as I can't outspend even 1 Deity AI


Roosevelt is a nice fella, but WvO is a backstabber. Check the files under 'AI behavior' in my signature for more information on leaders.

The warrior peaked at the horse spot to the west and found some wheat. This will be a good 4th/5th city perhaps. Notice the short path to irrigate the city.


I carefully moved my warrior to avoid facing barbarians on open ground, and staying away from archers. I will need to fortify this one on a forest/jungle hill to provide some protection from the north... as you will see, there's a lot of land available to ONLY us to the direct north.


On the diplomacy side, I will most likely be safe for a very long time. Mansa is easy to please and he already has a worst enemy.


Bronze Working was queued up next. The goal is to seal off the north part of the island/continent to myself so I need 2 quick settlers and some more workers.

What will be the most efficient way to accomplish this? I need 2~3 more workers. Being Spiritual and with great food, I can whip a settler into a worker combined with some chops to be able to get all I need quickly.

The exact timing/micro hasn't been determined... usually I go by "feeling it" but I will try to discuss what is the best approach.

One more decision before going on: do I favor growth right now or do I hammer out the second warrior quickly using a 1F2H or 3H tile?

I haven't been here in a while but I have time to play now and I though I'd give this game a shot. I played until 1000 BC

Turn 22 - Turn 28 [3120BC - 2880BC]

I decided to hammer out the warrior instead. This would mean a one turn delay on growth to size 4 (due to 1 turn delay to size 3). The worker/settler would come at the same time because I really need to finish the second warrior before the next build.

So I lost some food, but am gaining some information on the land.

Willem is also fairly close, not so good for diplomacy, hopefully Mansa surrounds me with his cities (unlikely, I can only hope to minimize my border with him)!


After the initial warrior, I put on all-food and grew to size 4. Upon reaching size 4, I have to decide what my next build is... a worker or a settler?

A settler is nice, but it will have to wait. My lone worker is already overwhelmed and I can't take him away to improve the second city as I need to finish the horses to get some protection from barbarians.

Therefore the next build can only be a worker.

I've changed my in-game name before saving (and after screenshots) because it gets confusing to find the right file to upload, hope you don't mind.

Here is a possible dotmap to block off the north from Mansa. The rice city would be able to grab the marble on third border pop (likely about 35~40 turns) in case there is no food by the marble. I will know in a turn or two.

1. Do you think it is likely to claim the marble within the third ring of the rice city? William is also creative, either he or Mansa could settle a city much nearer to the marble.

2. How do you intend to deal with the barbs? War chariots or mainly warriors for fogbusting?

3. If you would not have found the horses would you tech Hunting, Archery after Mining?

Turn 28 - Turn 43

Moving on ahead with the plan.

I finish improving the horses with the first worker while the second worker is assigned to chopping a forest NE of the capital (allows faster movement of settler and gains 2 turns on production).

The south is absolutely devoid of food so I place the rice city slightly south to try and grab the marble in the third culture ring.


Timed chops come in to finish the first War Chariot right on time. This is actually from the forest under the settler for city #2.


Which you can see here.


Interesting fact: cities are connected via rivers/coast inside your culture even if you lack fishing. Therefore this city brings an immediate 4 commerce to the empire:
+1 from trade route to the capital
+1 from trade route to this city
+1 from the city tile
+1 from the tile worked
-2 gpt upkeep

An early second city connected to your network is always a positive.

I end the round after discovering Writing (open borders with Mansa and Roosevelt but not Willem just yet... I'd rather get Mansa's religion and he has Sailing... don't want to give him easy commerce).

Mansa has decided to screw with my blocking.


I need some scouting in the north to figure an alternative location to block. Note that there is the corner of a barb city right above the northmost Dye and Peaks to the north of that city. That should slow Mansa's advance quite a bit by itself.

OR

I can plant a city south to collect all the resources to later sell them to the AI. This would also secure the marble.

Finally, what to research next.

Only a few options...
Pottery
Mathematics
Aesthetics

It's too early for Aesthetics, I don't have the necessary means to make use of it now.

Mathematics will take 20+ turns for 10H more per forest...

Or Pottery for granaries/cottages.

Barbarians have been a non-issue this game with the close proximity of AI units scouting all the land around and a well placed fog-buster to the north.

srad said:

1. Do you think it is likely to claim the marble within the third ring of the rice city? William is also creative, either he or Mansa could settle a city much nearer to the marble.

2. How do you intend to deal with the barbs? War chariots or mainly warriors for fogbusting?

3. If you would not have found the horses would you tech Hunting, Archery after Mining?

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1. Very low to be honest. Which is why I'm really considering putting a resource city down there. Brings in quite a bit of happiness as well!

2. Warriors. War Chariots will be to grab the barb city. The north is mainly fogbusted by 1 warrior on a jungle hill with Woodsman I and a barb city that sprung up.

3. It always depends on the land for me. If there seems to be a huge area devoid of AI presence, then yes... otherwise some fogbusting is usually enough. In this case it seems to have worked out very well.

Is that part of a mod you're using? I've never seen that...

Gwynnja said:

Is that part of a mod you're using? I've never seen that...

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I have BUG+BULL. It's the default -1/0/+1 attitude the AI has towards you.