OSG 24 - The Guns of Sssla

I was afraid we'd be seeing ships with shield 3 on it shortly. I can virtually guarantee you can slag that ship with missile boats, and we NEED to do so before they send a colony ship. They only have shield 3. Hold on a second and I'll suggest a design from the previous save.

EDIT: If we can get IC via any REASONABLE means, we should do it. I actually suggested we look into it in an earlier post. Robotics 3 is NOT reasonable. Terra +30 is also not reasonable in my opinion, but I'll defer to others.

Here's my alternate suggestion. I'm making the assumption that ship has shield 3, and we know they only have titanium armor so: That's a 100hp ship. We can just make a missile boat with 2 five shot racks of Hyper-V(apoware) rockets. I mean just. Can't even put maneuver 2 on. Those will do 3/hit against class 3 deflectors. You can build about 6-7/turn combined between Esper and Tau Cygni if you build it at max. Should take about 20 some to slag that ship. That would probably save Jinga. Worst case scenareo, it should be enough ships to slag a colony ship and delay them from colonizing the planet until we can make a reasonable trade for IC or, till we can crash up hard beams.

Now, if you see a big fleet incoming somewhere, then all bets are off, and we might have to trade for IC anyhow, but I'd rather try to save our arse w/o resorting to that if possible.

BTW, if we get to Mass Drivers and still don't have IC, we should try to trade it for IC. Mass Drivers suck. If we're lucky, they'll put those on their ships

On another note, if we're researching Mass Drivers, that means we're still stuck with Hyper-V for another tier... I'd be more inclined to overpay for a missile than a beam. It's a long way off to Stingers, if we even have those... or did we have a missile at this tier?

I was so proud of the nuclear fighters too Typical of me to get cocky, only to have trouble come knocking immediately afterwards

Options for missile boats:
3x 2-shot Hyper-V, maneuver 1, nuclear = 71 BC
2x 5-shot Hyper-V, maneuver 1, nuclear = 71 BC
2x 2-shot Hyper-V, maneuver 2, nuclear = 62 BC

I like the first and last ones best personally, 5-shot with maneuver 1 is kind of risky IMO. I'm also against trading IRC3 for IC. What else can we get from them? Can we get anything from the silicoids?

Actually, it occurred to me in my sleep... We're making designs with our tech at the save. He knows we have Mass Drivers in our tree, so AMR has hit, so I think he can probably make 2 X 5 shot with maneuver 2.

EDIT: OK, I "cheated" I loaded up the save, threw all reasearch into AMR to make it hit in one turn so I could check ship designs. I considered this ok as he has to have played at least this far, so I didn't see how I could learn any spoiler info. (I just ran from the Devistator, so I learned nothing there) Yes, it fits. You could even put a BC I on that 3X 2 shot ship. I might throw out some designs in a bit.

More EDIT: You know... If that ship you're fighting only has Lasers/Heavy Lasers, then there's another Alternative. Medium Hull, BC I, Shield 2 (OR Stabilizer), 2 Heavy Lasers. Could also do 1 HL and a 2 shot rack of Hyper V. I think we've got options enough to survive till Hard Beams.

I prefer missile boats among those options, and I'd pick 3x2 with BC mk I over 2x5.

Actually, I'd probably build some pure missile boats and some Heavy Laser or Missile + Heavy Laser ships. Good to have more than one option, and a way to do the last few points if we just run out of missiles. It's not like we're going to be able to build smalls with mass drivers on them for a bazillion years, so unless we can get npg or IC we're stuck with mediums for a while.

Most ships we're facing won't be using shield III, I'd just go with our current nuclear fighters complemented by missile boats. They're highly effective against shield I.

That's another option. What's the best one? We really don't know. None of the options are awesome, but all of them could work. Just use your best judgment I suppose, and we'll probably be just fine.

I second using your best judgment. Thoughtful of you to ask though codehappy. Hopefully the discussion has been helpful.

2400: Look around. Meklars are willing to trade BC 3 for IRC 3... if we had the Humans around to spy on, I'd be a little tempted, but given we have no such opportunity it's a non-starter.

2401: Meklars attack at Jinga with a single Devastator large, arriving the same turn as our colship. The thing's armed to the teeth with multiple heavy lasers, missiles and the Meklars' state of the art shields -- nothing we're packing can scratch it. The only saving grace is that our nuclear fighters are a lot more nimble. We dance around the field in an exceptionally boring battle and run out the battle clock, but since we don't have the colony founded it avails us nothing. Our forces auto-retreat to Dolz. Phooey.

Building more fighters in Tau Cygni -- we need the forces, if we're going to get and hold these last couple of planets. Hoping for Merculites now.

2402: Silicoids bring a colship plus a medium escort to Beta Ceti. They don't even bother trying to attack our fleet of PewPewPews. Nice to pick up an UR so close to the Silicoid homeworld.

Trax maxes on population and factories.

Move troops from Endoria to Jinga, it's only a matter of time now before a Meklar colship arrives there, we need ships there.

Wayward colship is redirected to Kailis -- I agree with the other posters, Nyarl is too close to Cryslon and has too few ships defending it to colonize now.

2403:



Pops at 14%. Next weapon choices are terrible -- no Merculites, which is what we really wanted here. Pick Mass Driver solely to move up the tree and potentially to trade, Neutron Blaster is available as well but the tech is more expensive, the Silicoids already have it (less trade value), the light version is only about as good as ion cannons on an average damage/size basis, and the heavy version, while powerful, is very large, no chance of putting that on a light fighter any time soon. Maybe a bit weedy of a choice since we still don't have the ion cannons, but the next rung of the ladder potentially has Stingers and Hard Beams, much more attractive options, and I'd want those as soon as we can get them.



Esper and Endoria max on population and factories.

At this point, with the weak weapons choices available, I get a little concerned: Jinga's threatened by the Meklars, and we can't stand up to their Devastators.

Defeated at the battle of Jinga, the tundra world in their own backyard, Gunsslinger Codehappy II faced the first crisis of her term. A remarkable Meklar ship that the mighty Sssla navy could not damage had appeared in Jingan orbit, and it drove off the Sssla fleets singly. The Meklar ship even ejected its waste modules onto the Ssssla-claimed planet as their ships fled, in a clearly gratuitous gesture of disrespect. A Sssla colony ssship had been sssent to the icy planet, and galactic maps had already been made marking the star Jinga as a Sssla colony, and were sssssold in the sssstreets to the happy citizens. Yet the planet could not be claimed without first dislodging the evil Meklars. Worse still, Sssla researchers, while yielding a breakthrough in anti-missile rockets, reported no ability to yet develop the advanced missiles that were needed desperately to defend Sssla homeworlds. They could develop guns, guns and more guns, and while all Sssla truly love their guns, there were other worthy research projects to pursue, even though the Sssla scientists could not be convinced of this.

Gunsslinger Codehappy called a Congress of former Gunsslingers to seek advice and council. The Meklar ships could not be defeated with the laser cannons mounted on our fighters, and better weapons had to be obtained, she explained, even expressing a reluctant willingness to part with the Sakkra's computer secrets in exchange for new ssshiny guns. (And what true Sssla could resssist them?)

"Codehappy, you NEWT," hissssssed Maniac, the bellicose and war-hardened former Gunsslinger, "if you cannot dessstroy them with gunsss, fire at them with MISSSSSSSSSSSSILESSSSSSSS!"

The hissing on the last word lassssted the better part of an hour (which on Ssssla are rather long), and the sssssibilance echoed off the sssstone walls of the Sssla Sssssenate for an hour longer.

The ssssitting Gunsslinger, very fond of her gunsssss, had quite forgotten that the Sssla had Hyper-V rockets. While not particularly puissssssssant, the rockets were sssssufficient to damage the Meklar ships.

And sssso, the Sssslian navy commisssssioned a new boat:



In honor of Maniac's remarkable and record-setting Ssssenate outburssst, the new ships were to be called the "MISSSSSSSSSSSSILESSSSSSSS!" Class Destroyers. However, there was not enough room on the sssside of the ship to paint that.

Some media pundits (including the GNN robot's sssssister) questioned naming a vessel of war "miss", and suggested that the new misssssile boat be christened "hit" instead. These media pundits were ssssssummarily executed.

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We immediately start pumping out missile boats from Esper and Tau Cygni to send to Jinga.

2404:



IT+30 in, Bio Toxin Antidote next.



Send some scouting ships down to the stars now in range in the south.

2405: Send the colship back to Jinga. The Meklars are sending a single colship in, but it's a few turns away yet.

2406: The Meklars (!) attack at Nyarl, the UP near Cryslon. No chance to hold this indeed. Our ship retreats to Toxic Rich Ajax.

2407-2408: Building more fighters, adjusting sliders...

2409: We destroy the Devastator on Jinga with 15 missile boats and 20-odd nuke fighters.



Success!

Paranar (Toxic Hostile 30) is the neutron star in the south. It's uncolonized.



Personal Deflectors in the percentages.

2410: The Meklar colship arrives at Jinga and is promptly driven off -- and that's that.

Esper's producing missile boats, next player may want to build more ships in other planets. This turnset I was concentrating on keeping Jinga and getting the new factories up with IT+30.

I have some new ships (missile boats and nuclear fighters) en route to Beta Ceti, although not yet enough to be a good garrison. I haven't scrapped the PewPewPews yet, even though they've reached the end of their useful (combat) life, because they're the only things sitting in orbit there. Since those are costing us a bit of maintenance a turn we will want to scrap them soon.

This was pretty much an infrastructure turnset. Everybody except for the newer colonies is re-maxed on population and factories, or one turn away from maxing. We have a lot more production to play with now, which can only mean good things.

...And uploader on the fritz, so get your save here:

http://www.codehappy.net/SAVE2.zip

Looks good. I like missile boats, but I like to have Hyper-X at least to throw on them generally. it's kind of funny to save a planet with the rough missile equivalent of those LR lemon ssssscouts heh. I know I'm up now. I think I can get it posted by Tuesday night

Here is my preturn analysis. Feel free to make comments/suggestions, as I will not be playing immediately.

Looks like we've weathered the storm of the last 20 years, and may actually be able to get ourselves into a position to win. Unlike some others, I'm in no hurry to scrap those warp 1 dud fighters. They're still serving a purpose in my mind. Lets analyze our defenses.

Vega, Tau Cygni, and Dolz - Backline, should be safe

Trax - Only 2 parsecs from Antares... I fret over this a bit. I consider building some fleet here... But, it can crash up 2 bases a turn, and those bases should be safe from lasers, which I think a lot of designs are still using, so... I think we should roll the dice.

Sssla - Far enough away from the Meklar at the moment, and should be safe, Worst case, we should have plenty of time to defend it.

Jinga - Safe for now! Good job codehappy. In fact, I reason that we can send the warp 2 ships on to centrally located Endoria. It's back line enough, we can send it aid from many locations if need be.

Esper - I intend to make Missile ships there for 2 more rounds to leave in orbit, then quit. That should hopefully be enough defense there. It can make 3 bases/2 years at least, and can get aid from other planets if needed. In a pinch, it can get fighter cover from Tau Cygni

Endoria - It's getting 20+ missile boats shortly, should be enough. It can crash up a base a year. It can call on fighter cover from Beta Ceti in 2 turns if needed.

Beta Ceti - It's going to have 11 Missile boats, 152 fighters, and another 20+ missile boats a turn away, Also, it's Ultra Rich, and will soon be able to make a lot of bases in a hurry.

Kalis - I've no intention of standing up serious defenses here during my turn. Unless someone objects, We'll just hope they leave it alone. When we get warp 3 and Mass Drivers, maybe we can station some ships at Beta Ceti that can respond to here in 2 turns if necessary.


Regarding the Universe at large, we have 1 planet, and only one, that will be scoutable in the next several decades baring military gains on our part, and we'll scout it next turn.

Techwise... who pissed off the moo gods to get these tech trees?

CPU - Improved Scanner. This is a priority, though less so with our limited number of planets. It's really important to know when and where an invasion is comming from.

Reduced 60 - Less of a priority since we got IER (good job Catscratch... err catwalk!) Still, it's construction. We should get this before my turn ends.

FF - Personal isn't a huge priority, but we'd do well to get it and see if we have Planetary Shields.

Planetology - antidote is important as we know death spores are about.

Propulsion - Sub-light not a priority now that we have NE (good job catwalk). Especially since we don't send transports domestically.

Weapons - Mass Drivers. I'd have preferred Neutron Blasters, or, ANY missile, but anything that's not a laser is an improvement at this point. I'm surprised we didn't get forced to Ion Rifle heh.

Terrific report, codehappy! I was shaking with laughter all the way through the blockquoted portion. Great job with our tech, infrastructure, and colonization projects too, especially including Jinga!

Which reminds me: Maniac, could you please stop always being right all the time? (Great work recognizing the threat to Jinga, the need for defenses, and the utility of Mobile Missile Platforms - excuse me, I mean Missssssssssssssssssssesssssssssssssss!)

Sheesh, I disappear for a weekend and miss all this drama and great discussion. Looking forward to seeing Maniac's report though!

RefSteel said:

Which reminds me: Maniac, could you please stop always being right all the time? (Great work recognizing the threat to Jinga, the need for defenses, and the utility of Mobile Missile Platforms - excuse me, I mean Missssssssssssssssssssesssssssssssssss!)

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I can try! Actually, I was wrong about a few things in our pitboss games. I totally screwed up where to scout with our starting warrior, and I was completely wrong about some diplo situations that occurred at the end of the game. It just all happened to be stuff that never was important or the game ended before it mattered. You just remember me calling where the barbs where going to show up each turn.

I was wrong about some stuff THIS game too. I told you we wouldn't get the Ultra Rich planet. I thought the AI would grab it during your turn. Looks like the Meklars wanted that nebula planet instead (Maybe they assumed the nebula planet was the Ultra Rich heh) I also said that we'd be forced to research ion rifle.

EDIT: Not going to make another crosspost, but RE: the warp 1 fighters, I agree their life is near an end, but I can not see making Warp 2 ones to replace. I think we should wait to make any more beam ships till we have Mass Drivers, unless there is an urgent need.

Oops - crosspost. On the PewPewPews, it looks like they are serving some purpose, but they're also eating 40-something BC per year ... and their scrap is worth several hundred BC that could be fed into our UR and Rich worlds! It looks to me (from the planet screen) as if both are already fully stocked on reserves at least for this turn, and I agree we shouldn't scrap the PewPewPews right away, but I do think they're very, very near the end of their useful lifetime; I'd rather have (even Hyper-V) bases at Beta Ceti.

Trax worries me too, especially with the Meklar fleet (and Bulrathi cruiser) hanging out there. I don't know what the Bulrathi Warbear is mounting, but per Catwalk's report, the Ajax appears to Ion cannons (heavy or regular, I don't know) and I don't think we've met the Tornado yet, so it might be Very Dangerous. I think I'd roll the dice on Trax a little longer, but if Meklar relations start seriously dropping or if more ships show up in the region, bases will be needed. Note that Trax is definitely not in the nebula at least.

As for Kailis, I agree it would be pointless and foolhardy to attempt a serious defense during the upcoming turn set. If an AI wants to make a play for it, let them; it'll make a nice soft target for invasion later on, when they've built up a bunch of factories for us. When its population is higher, we can reassess, naturally.

On tech, I'm mostly in agreement, but we may be able to make some lemonade with those MDs (sort of like with the Hyper-Vs) and we'll be really glad we're advancing the tree faster if Stingers show up in the next tier! (And if they don't, it'll still be good at least to know!)

ToddMarshall said:

I was wrong about some stuff THIS game too.

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I know, I know; none of us are perfect. Still, I think you deserved the hat-tip. I use missile boats only (too) rarely, so I'm particularly impressed with your recognizing that they were our best bet (indeed our only non-laser weapon)!

Excellent play codehappy, good job securing Jinga. I was worried sick

I don't know what the Bulrathi Warbear is mounting, but per Catwalk's report, the Ajax appears to Ion cannons (heavy or regular, I don't know)

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Heavy Ion Cannon. Will comment more after I get home from work.

I don't have much else to comment on the report, well written and well played. I might also have gone for Neutrol Blaster over Mass Driver, but if MD is the cheaper choice it's probably fine.

ToddMarshall said:

Here is my preturn analysis. Feel free to make comments/suggestions, as I will not be playing immediately.

Looks like we've weathered the storm of the last 20 years, and may actually be able to get ourselves into a position to win. Unlike some others, I'm in no hurry to scrap those warp 1 dud fighters. They're still serving a purpose in my mind. Lets analyze our defenses.

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I beg to differ, they're grossly inefficient both because of their lack of maneuverability and slow response time. I'd make it a high priority to get enough new ships produced to be able to scrap the retros.

Vega, Tau Cygni, and Dolz - Backline, should be safe

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Agreed.

Trax - Only 2 parsecs from Antares... I fret over this a bit. I consider building some fleet here... But, it can crash up 2 bases a turn, and those bases should be safe from lasers, which I think a lot of designs are still using, so... I think we should roll the dice.

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Note that it has most of a base already produced. I'd probably put up 2 bases and partly fund a 3rd one in order to stay safe, wouldn't cost us much.

Sssla - Far enough away from the Meklar at the moment, and should be safe, Worst case, we should have plenty of time to defend it.

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Maybe partly fund a base here as well, isn't it in range of Antares?

Endoria - It's getting 20+ missile boats shortly, should be enough. It can crash up a base a year. It can call on fighter cover from Beta Ceti in 2 turns if needed.

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I'd also partly fund a base here.

Beta Ceti - It's going to have 11 Missile boats, 152 fighters, and another 20+ missile boats a turn away, Also, it's Ultra Rich, and will soon be able to make a lot of bases in a hurry.

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As mentioned above, I'd scrap the retros. This is the most vulnerable planet, and it has a sizable fleet already. Bolstering that with 40-50 nuclear fighters gives us a lot of flexibility in dealing with threats, especially if we put up a scanner ship somewhere.

Kalis - I've no intention of standing up serious defenses here during my turn. Unless someone objects, We'll just hope they leave it alone. When we get warp 3 and Mass Drivers, maybe we can station some ships at Beta Ceti that can respond to here in 2 turns if necessary.

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Agreed.

CPU - Improved Scanner. This is a priority, though less so with our limited number of planets. It's really important to know when and where an invasion is comming from.

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Agreed, maybe I put this off for too long. A seeding investment of 13% of the RP value will put it in the percentages in 10 years with optimal interests.

Reduced 60 - Less of a priority since we got IER (good job Catscratch... err catwalk!) Still, it's construction. We should get this before my turn ends.

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Pretty important IMO, will be highly valuable.

FF - Personal isn't a huge priority, but we'd do well to get it and see if we have Planetary Shields.

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Will come in real handy if war breaks out and we need to take Antares in a hurry before bases come up.

Planetology - antidote is important as we know death spores are about.

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I never focus much on antidote. Has been my downfall more than once

Propulsion - Sub-light not a priority now that we have NE (good job catwalk). Especially since we don't send transports domestically.

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Sublight is also a power sucker, whereas nuclear is about as efficient as retro.

Weapons - Mass Drivers. I'd have preferred Neutron Blasters, or, ANY missile, but anything that's not a laser is an improvement at this point. I'm surprised we didn't get forced to Ion Rifle heh.

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I hate hate hate not having NPG in the tech tree, it would fit so perfectly with our needs. And almost always does in every game.

Catwalk said:

I beg to differ, they're grossly inefficient both because of their lack of maneuverability and slow response time. I'd make it a high priority to get enough new ships produced to be able to scrap the retros.

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Yes, they're inefficient. They are also the only thing in orbit over this highly important planet right now. Other ships are on the way, but it'll be a few turns. Yes, they're costing maintenance, but if we replaced them with other ships, they'd be costing maintenance. But here's my quibble list with producing warp 2 laser fighters right now - It takes production to make them, we have a better beam (and engine) 7-14 turns away at a guess, and they're liable to be vapoware.

I agree their shelf life isn't much longer, but I think we should skip the warp 2 lasers, and jump to warp 3 MD mediums.

I will, however, reconsider if the majority think I'm wrong on this.

Catwalk said:

Note that it has most of a base already produced. I'd probably put up 2 bases and partly fund a 3rd one in order to stay safe, wouldn't cost us much.

Maybe partly fund a base here as well, isn't it in range of Antares?

I'd also partly fund a base here.

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If it was a SP game, I'd fully produce a base at each of the planets, but I think I'll go with your suggestions.

Catwalk said:

As mentioned above, I'd scrap the retros. This is the most vulnerable planet, and it has a sizable fleet already. Bolstering that with 40-50 nuclear fighters gives us a lot of flexibility in dealing with threats, especially if we put up a scanner ship somewhere.

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I wont be playing for 5-30hrs (not feeling well again today, and I thought I was over being sick), so everyone please chime in. I made my case above, but will cave if the majority disagree.

Catwalk said:

I never focus much on antidote. Has been my downfall more than once

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I'm probably the oposite of that.

Catwalk said:

Sub-light is also a power sucker, whereas nuclear is about as efficient as retro.

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Good point I hadn't considered. Still, getting them opens up (hopefully) Fusion Drives.

Catwalk said:

I hate hate hate not having NPG in the tech tree, it would fit so perfectly with our needs. And almost always does in every game.

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Yep. Or failing that, IC. Either of them usually lasts for ages, usually long enough for Megabolt or Autoblasters to show up.

Regarding MD, I think my earlier post sounded harsher than intended. MD's are fine because they are cheaper and NB's aren't spectacular either, and won't fit on a fighter for a while. Heavy Blast Cannons are nice, though, but at the end of the day, we'll be faster to stingers (or to panicking if we don't have those either)

ToddMarshall said:

Yes, they're inefficient. They are also the only thing in orbit over this highly important planet right now. Other ships are on the way, but it'll be a few turns. Yes, they're costing maintenance, but if we replaced them with other ships, they'd be costing maintenance. But here's my quibble list with producing warp 2 laser fighters right now - It takes production to make them, we have a better beam (and engine) 7-14 turns away at a guess, and they're liable to be vapoware.

I agree their shelf life isn't much longer, but I think we should skip the warp 2 lasers, and jump to warp 3 MD mediums.

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I'm pretty much with Maniac on this one. I do think we should scrap our first-generation fighters soon, but not in favor of more laser fighters, no matter with what tactical speed! I'd probably scrap the things during the upcoming turnset though, as existing ships (and maybe some new Missssssssses) arrive from out of system and we get a start on some missile bases (especially if we keep it fed with reserves, Beta Ceti's factory infrastructure should outrun even its Sakkra pop growth on its hostile world shortly).

On sublights vs. nukes: I never even think about the power usage, mainly because I love (love, love, love, love!) strategic speed. Part of this is because of the flexibility issue that Catwalk mentioned - but while it's true that nuclear fighters give us a lot of options for dealing with unshielded threats, they leave us no options at all for dealing with shields such as the Meklar are now using. So in the current circumstances, I'd rather go with a few missile bases and (where needed) missile boats, scrapping the PewPewPews when they're replaced by more modern defenses, then jump to Sublight-powered ships with actual weapons (like MDs).

(On NPGs: Yes. These are probably my favorite weapon in the entire game. At least until Megabolts show up, and my games don't often last that long....)

Regarding MD, I think my earlier post sounded harsher than intended. MD's are fine because they are cheaper and NB's aren't spectacular either, and won't fit on a fighter for a while. Heavy Blast Cannons are nice, though, but at the end of the day, we'll be faster to stingers (or to panicking if we don't have those either)

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Yeah, I agree. I'm glad codehappy went with the quicker tech - both possibilities were largely duds, and this one gets us faster up the tree. As well, though they'll virtually never fit on a small, the MD ships we do make will virtually never be completely obsolete.

More broadly: Maniac, as we all said to codehappy, use your own best judgment; you obviously know what you're doing!