SGOTM 13 - Plastic Ducks

interesting... ...not seeing bronze is a bit sad, but well, cant have everyting, no?

played

...

something else to note:

none of our so far met neighbours has a religion, which hints towards this:

a religious nut (charlemagne, isa) that got both early religions cause nobody else went for it. going for mono would still be doable i guess, in the mc route, but it´s a gamble and would delay writing for someting like 6-7 turns (therfore costing 1 gold in each city for 6-7 turns, which is around 30 gold)

-> question about foreign trade routes:

we seem to be connected only to vicky and jaoaoa via trade routes.

does that mean:
1. kathy and raggy have crossed an ocean tile via borderpops and we can reach them or simply that both of them havent seen any of our cities yet?
2. we only get traderoutes to vicky and jaoaoaoao AFTER finding at least one of their cities or do we get immediate traderoutes because the know our cities?

kossin said:

I'd say there's good chance of Iron on our starting island. That and to our east where I imagine a few teams will have decided to look because of the Stone.

Mainland is uncertain. Better go down the hammer route = food sites requiring few workers.

Click to expand...

yup, i second this. food must be our primary goal to look for.

btw. i have a cunning plan to scout both the fish + stone site BEFORE we get our next settler moving:
shipping our mighty scouting-worker towards the stone hill, then moving him towards the desert hill while picking up the settler... ...like that we should see all tiles in the bfc of both possible cities and the moving of our galley fits in perfect + we dont even loose a worker turn for roading and mining the desert hill if we settle there

Trade networks:
We can have a network with all of them, we only need to reveal a path to their capital's network. Only Joao and Vicky have scouted our capital so that's only networks available for them (we'd get 0C from opening borders with them right now).

Good point about scouting with the worker !!

Well done, kossin.

It's amazing that we already met 4 AIs. Look at the EPs that Vicky put on us -- 45, which means

1. we were her 1st contact, so she own a separated continent.
2. She met 3rd unknown AI

These told that this map is very likely a true archipelago map, with every AI started on his own continent or something similar. We can access at least 5 AIs through galley, hence I highly suspect that we don't need Astro to victory, especially the GLH owner was already shown up.

Since Cathy with GLH is reachable for sure, I'd say Moscow is definitely our 1st target and the sooner, the better. I almost want Construction from Oracle, however, we don't have the production ~T106. Therefore, I now incline to research Pottery earlier for production, which will delay the date of Oracle (~4 turns?). Construction or Currency from Oracle? The only 2 meaningful and necessary techs.

The only necessary infrastructures for every city is granary, LH and barrack! We probably don't even need a single library.

Great turnset, kossin.

I agree with Duckweed's analysis about the nature of the map being archipelago. From the early demographics, and the game description about the AIs having "rather more land available," I think we're likely the only civ who start on tiny islands.

Am very curious about Snaaty's opinion on Construction/Currency vs MCasting.

Love the cunning scouting worker plan!

With all those AIs and their workboat around, exploration seems a high priority.

@kossin: Did Paris' borders pop? Could you post a screenshot for those of us without the BUFFY mod installed?

Looks like that gold site had a *third* seafood?!

@Compromise
Border pop is next turn. I stopped here so we could decide what tech to go for next. In theory I could have run an additional 0% research turn but that might push back a tech we'd need to 1 turn late.

Yes, there's indeed a 2nd clam at the gold site

@Construction
It's an interesting choice, needs to be considered in the timing of research vs production. However, it does seem like MC isn't quite required to start conquering.

@GLH
Yes, I'd say Cathy goes first. GLH will boost our economy a ton and Cathy tends to expand a lot so taking her out early is best. This ties in with Construction from Oracle - grabbing GLH earlier is like a double-currency effect!

@AIs
Victoria only knew us (6 EP/turn) at first but met Joao a few turns later and another AI (down to 2 EP/turn for a bit) I think.

Ragnar and Cathy met each other.

Oh, right...the 1T delay in settling the plains hill. Thx.

Do you remember where you first saw Cathy? (Her workboat, presumably.) You said northwest, but I don't see it on the screenshot with her looking askance at us.... I'd recommend prioritizing scouting in that direction....

I put down a sign that says 'Cathy <--', she came from that direction (couldn't see her wb in the IBT, only when I moved next turn it was going SE from that direction).

kossin said:

@Construction
It's an interesting choice, needs to be considered in the timing of research vs production. However, it does seem like MC isn't quite required to start conquering.

Click to expand...

MC is NOT required to start conquering, although it is still a nice tech in this game. Its usefulness comes mainly from the TRIREME, which is efficient for protection of the seafoods. Partially from its on route to open Maceman, which I'm not sure whether it's necessary. Neither Forge, nor TC makes sense for now.

Yea, what I meant
Since AIs are close, Maces are not needed for a while.
Being Charismatic, catapults will be CR2 after 1 win so we just need to spam these ^^
With access to GLH almost guaranteed now (and she might likely settle the GM she just got), our economy will be safe for the remainder of the game.

I agree that Oracle -> MC seems to lack some flexibility at this point, despite being ahead in infrastructure.
Oracle -> Currency ensures we have the research power to get the military tech we need (depending on available strategic resources).

Oracle -> Construction... I'm not sure : we would have very little production accross the Empire when Construction kicks in, so no real mean to take advantage of it.
Another (not yet examined) possibility would be Oracle -> Feudalism. Longbows + cats + Vassalage (2 promotions with Barracks) could take us a long way without strategic resources. However, Vassal States being turned off doesn't make this option fully appealing. If we can access a strategic resource, then there should be better options.


What happens to the roster ? How do we keep playing this ?
I didn't want to complete the Oracle this time again but, is it my turn ?

most important in my opinion is getting pottery end of t82. so we can get grans up without delay in gold city and capital. i will post a detailed plan shortly.

techs from oracle:
need to think/simulate a bit about it but still am inclined a bit towards mc..

@BIC
Roster: whoever wants to be up next I didn't set any order hoping we'd have enough willing playing force this time around.

Oracle tech is still determined by what is limiting us most: do we need more techs for war (Currency) or will we be ready for war upon Oracle completion (Construction,MC, etc).

I'm curious to see how early we could snipe away Moscow from Catherine... I guess we should send a wb in that direction ASAP in the next set which will probably be something like Pottery>Meditation>PH. A small force or 8~10+galleys units should be able to accomplish that task easily.

There's a good chance (luck dependent on DS and barbarian) that we can circumvent the map using 2 WBs, ideally if this can be done before the sailing of offensive stack.

I agree, 50% bonus on movement? Sign me up.

Now we only need to plan out those 2 extra wb's...

Duckweed said:

There's a good chance that we can circumvent the map using 2 WBs, ideally if this can be done before the sailing of offensive stack.

Click to expand...

good point, i will try to include this in the next test, so sending out 2wbs is high (highest?) prio -> this heavily collides with the currency pick at t106 btw, hope this is clear to all of you (maybe its possible at t107, but even that cant be sure)

but i guess given the map the circumbonus has to be priorized very high...

edith:
crosspost with kossin... ...i had a mc test with exactly this 2 wbs already prepared (anticipating the circum. thingy alredy in case we wont need astro... ...which now seems very unlikely knowing 4 out of 6 ai already)

edith2:
will post it tonight, dont have time right now

Agree that circumnavigation (50% movement) and local exploration (find metal) are very high priorities.

Is it reasonable to think we could conquer the map with swords/axes and cats on galleys?

Tech:
If so, then we need Construction, Ironworking for units and resource reveal, and Currency to enable more production sites.

If we don't have Copper or Iron near us--ahem...mapmaker!--then we'll also need Hunting-Archery.

Everything else seems acquirable by trade or peace deals.

Slave production cities:
Cats, swords, axes, and galleys can all be 2-pop whipped. Minimum city size for 2-pop whip is 4. (We really do have to find metal because archers can't be 2-pop whipped.)

A city with a granary, lighthouse, lots of coast, and a crab/clam resource can make +5F per turn. It takes 36F+39F to grow from size 2->3 and 3->4 respectively. Granary gives you 18F and 19F upon growth, so the total food needed to go from size 2->4 is 38F.

Whip anger takes 15T to decay. +5F x 15T is 75F. 75F-38F=37F. So, over 15T, we have 37F to convert to production. The surrounding tiles determine how efficiently we can convert that food surplus to hammers:

0F=1H: grass forest (sacrifices 2C from coast, as do the rest of these options)
1F=2H: plains forest
1F=3H: grass hill mine, marble plain quarry (+2C)
1F=4H: grass hill stone quarry
2F=4H: plains hill mine
2F=3H: desert hill mine
2F=2H: Engineer specialist
2F=1H: lowly citizen specialist

Oracle tech consideration/evaluation:
Given all these reachable AIs, I agree with Duckweed that Construction and Currency are the top choices for Oracle picks. Going with kossin's estimate of 8-10 full galleys, let's say 8 galleys with 7 cats and 9 metal units (composition debatable).

If we don't find Copper soon, maybe we should tech Ironworking next? (I am not a good tech trader, so maybe trading for it is better.)

Can we compare Currency vs. Construction Oracle choices by how quickly we can put together an 8-galley strike force on the tile that kossin met Cathy?

Hold on!

That's 8~10 units + galleys = 4~5 cats + 5~6 attackers.... 8 galleys is enough to take out all of Cathy We want to snipe away Moscow ASAP to reap the rewards. Might even be possible to do it with fewer units but having a few more means we can keep taking her good stuff though.

kossin said:

Hold on!

Click to expand...

Just trying to come up with a rational way of comparing the various Oracle choices.

5 or 6 full galleys is even quicker. GLighthouse is twice as good as Currency, so the faster the better. Does that favor Construction over Currency for Oracle? Not sure.

Even if the GLighthouse is in an inland city on a lake (or--by Worldbuilder--not!), I assume it still has its effect.

Yes, GLH works for every city next to non-fresh water (that does include inland lakes of 10+ tiles!)

Taking Construction is really tempting, but it depends if our cities are ready once we finish Oracle... sacrificing expansion for taking only 1 city isn't good enough. On a hunch I'd say Currency is still best because of expansion for more hammers.

For instance, should we stick to 4 cities until we grab GLH or should we move up to 8 cities and grab GLH later?

The second case is in much better position to continue conquest.

Yes, good question. We should REX until further cities start slowing down research. And then maybe another city or few depending on how much research we've done by then.

If no non-settler-pumping cities have minimum infrastructure--lighthouse, (monument?), granary, barracks--by Oracle-time, then Currency. This does seem likely.

What tech to research after Currency? Ironworking reveals our last near-term tile production resource and metal source, but could also be traded for (Currency?) with an AI with Alphabet.

Would cities be ready for Construction if we tech it after Oracling Currency? If so, then I'd support that so that unit-producing cities have something to make. But if we're still REXing and building unit-pump infrastructure, then maybe delay Construction further, until after Ironworking.