OSG 24 - The Guns of Sssla

The good news is: I've played, and I scrapped the warp 1 duds too. Admittedly I did it 8 turns in, but they're cratered. There's even more good news, in fact, I've nothing BUT good news, might even be good enough to break out these guys , I haven't decided yet, but you're going to have to wait for it, because I'm not going to get the report posted till tomorrow night.

Sounds exciting Maniac, looking forward to reading it!

I've nothing BUT good news
...
but you're going to have to wait for it

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That's just plain wrong. You, sir, are an evil man.

Looking forward to Maniac's good news.

RefSteel said:

On sublights vs. nukes: I never even think about the power usage, mainly because I love (love, love, love, love!) strategic speed.

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I wanted to mention: the issue of engine efficiency has been brought up a couple of times now. I know it is discussed in the strategy guide, with supporting numbers and graphs. The analysis in the guide is interesting, but based on my experience I agree with Ref: strategic speed (by which I mean warp between stars) is more important, especially at the lower warp speeds-- the difference in the game between warp one and two is huge, even from 2 to 3 can be a big difference depending on the neighborhood & galaxy, and so on; of course if you get some of the higher-level engines, the difference between say, 5 and 6 will not be so impressive. I don't mind, while designing a ship, playing with designs to see how much more can be fit on a ship with a lower-number warp engine. But in practice, I have generally been underwhelmed by the difference in what could be loaded on a ship with sacrifices in engines that I was at all willing to consider. I am also a fan of high ship defense (and hence maneuverability), although of course our having the Inertial Stabilizer can partially compensate for that.

Disclaimer: I tend to play on smaller maps and, assuming I have some decent engine techs in my tree, to REALLY start downplaying Propulsion by the time High-Energy Focus is available to be researched. In this game we may well go further in tech. But I did want to add my two cents on the desirability of using older engines.

Well, OK, maybe NOTHING but good news is a BIT of an exaggeration, but it's close to that...

My preturn analysis was poster earlier, so we'll dispense with that and go straight to the report...

In the year 2410, Maniac the second was elected to run the Sakra empire for the next 10 years. Almost a complete unknown just a few years ago, he had managed to parlay his position as head of a Hyper-V rocket manufacturing company into a position of huge political clout and popularity. Funny thing is, he didn't even know if his missile boat ships would actually work, and had really only suggested them because, well, at least he'd increase sales. And now, it appeared as if history would remember him as "the savior of Jinga", even though that was not entirely true.

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I'm on a deadline, so I don't have time to do a lot of in character stuff for this report, but I thought that was too good not to include

2410 - Set Trax to make a couple of bases. Set Sssla and Endoria set to make base prebuilds. Send Missile boats and Warp 2 fighters (all 4 of em) from Jinga to centrally located Endoria, and set Ultra Poor Kalis to full on Terraform. Otherwise, I leave the planets doing what they were doing when I inherited them.

I like the way research is apportioned, so I leave it alone for now.

The Meklar fleet over Antares leaves, so I'll stop making bases here, annnnnnd, lookie here.



We're going to try to grab this planet.

2411 - OK, new plan. Looks like I'll be making missile boats a while longer, because I'm going to ship some down to defend Maalor... only problem is, they don't have the range... so I'll have to get clever about it. For now, all I can do is pull our 15 lasers on scout ships off the Toxic worlds (we have a NAP with the Silicoids, they'll settle them out from under us shortly anyway.) and hope these would be enough to kill a lone colony ship. Dubious, but it's all I have right now.

I decide to send the just made Missile Boats, plus the ones from the next 2 turns to Ajax, the Toxic world near our Ultra poor. Once the colony is founded, we can move the boats in to Maalor in three turns. They could also respond to a crisis at the Ultra Poor, but that's just a side benefit. This means we'll only have 9 missile boats in orbit at the Ultra Rich, so, I'm sorry, but the fighters have to stay a little while longer yet.

The colony ship is going to have to be made at the Ultra Rich, which is the closest planet and can do it in 2 turns. Unfortunate, but that's the way it goes.

Elsewhere, Trax prebuilds for a third base (which accidentally completed... ooops), Endoria finishes its prebuild, and Tau Cygni and Trax are set to finish factories and become full on research planets.

I send the last 3 stragglers that arrive at Jinga on to Endoria.

IT -



The only new "choice" is class IV. Not worthless, but not Planetary shields either. Lets hope we get Repuslors next level.

The Warbear at Antares pulls out in a SE direction... it can only be headed to scout Drakka, Paranar, or... gulp, Maalor. It's more important than ever to defend that planet now!

2412 - The thought occurs a couple of turns too late that if we're going to scrap the warp 1 duds shortly, we need a warp 2 dud in orbit of every planet (other than the UP and the new planet) before the end of my turn, so I set about making that happen by relocating 4 or 5 from Trax to worlds that don't have one.

Shift research about a bit to seed Force Fields.

IT- Uhhh, crap?!



It's a lone Warbear. Our lone Ssscout runs... please leave Mr. Warbear...

2413 - Colony ship completed, sent on to Maalor... lets hope the Warbear leaves. I order the Ssscout to stay in orbit at Maalor.

Esper continues to churn out missile boats, everywhere else is either building factories, terraforming, or doing research now.

Of galactic interest, The Meklars are now allied with the Sillicoids and Klackons, and AT WAR with the Humans and Bulrathi... Whether this is good or bad remains to be seen. I would expect good, but the Silicoids and Meklar being tight might not be for the best.

IT - Mr. Warbear has left the building!

2414 - Silicoids now at war with the Humans and Bulrathi as well. I send the 20 odd Warp 2 fighters from Beta Ceti to join the missile boats gathering to defend our new planet. With the Meklar pulling out (at warp 1 or 2) from all our boarder colonies, and likely distracted, I take a chance and shut down fleet production for now. Lets face it, those missile boats are, in the main, lemons. We should be able to make SMALL Hyper-V boats soon... Otherwise, a slow turn.

IT -

2415 - Uhh, nothing notable really. Some micromanagment with tech and terraforming sliders, but nothing notable.

IT -

2416 - Propulsion and construction now in the low %... I have nothing exciting to say about this turn.

IT -

2417 - Weapons now in the low %... I have nothing exciting to say about this turn.

IT -





Dan the bard came out to celebrate. The rest of Maniac's Minstrels™ decide to wait to make sure we can actually HOLD it before they make their appearance

Yes, I'm a pictorial no0b

IIRC there's a 20 picture limit on posts here, so I'll have part 2 up shortly.

Lurker:

nice reading so far. One thing that can be big on warp speed is that nukes do not increase the speed of transports, Sub Light does.

With the colonization of Maalor, I feel obliged to apologize to RefSteel: I'm sorry, I was right yet again when I said earlier that those 2 worlds in the corner deserved a look and that was reason enough to settle the Ultra Poor. In my defense, I was expecting to find either someone living there, a radiated planet, or, at least asteroids. Really, I was! The turn isn't over yet though, so maybe I can still find a way to be wrong yet!

Maniac was quite pleased with the settlement of Maalor, figuring it would only add to the legacy of the "Savior of Jinga", but still he wanted more. He needed something else, and he thought he knew what it was, which was why he had called a meeting with the head of the research department for today.

"Look Beeker, I'll be brief. It's my consssidered opinion that your lot aren't holding up their end of the bargain." Said Maniac

"Why would you sssay that? Did we not deliver the sssecretsss of Persssonal deflector ssshileds to you only a few yearsss ago?" countered the ssscientist.

"Yeah, you did. But that'sss ONE new technology in ssseven years. ONE. We're definitely NOT keeping up with the Meklar and Sssilicoidsss if we're learning one technology in SSSEVEN yearsss." Maniac said with a twinge of anger in his voice. He was not done either.

"Furthermore, and even more disssturbingly, I've been hearing rumorsss that that RefSssteel guy might get re-elected sssoon. I sssaw your department in action during his lassst term. And when I sssay inaction, make no missstake, that'sss one word, NOT two. You and your guys couldn't have made a breakthrough on a thin pane of glassssss with an entire bucket of rocksss when he was in charge, and he just let you ssslide. Really, I've no idea why he let you keep your job. Other leadersss, are not likely to be ssso lenient... Have I made myssself clear?" Maniac hisssed.

"As a bell ssssssssssssssssir" Beaker ssspat.

"Very well, then if you value your job, you have three years to deliver sssome ressultsss. Disssmisssed." Maniac conclued.

Beaker left the meeting thinking to himssself that if he did make sssome breakthroughsss, he'd alssso try to trade them to the other racesss. Of courssse, he'd present them as dissscoveriesss. What the presssident didn't know....

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2418 - Fleet at Ajax sent to Maalor... the Silicoids are fixing to colonize Ajax in 2-3 turns anyhow. Lets hope we can hold this new planet! In other news, Planetology is now in the low %, a warp 2 laser is now in orbit at every colony but Maalor, where one is en route, and, in celebration of getting reasonable defenses stood up everywhere, AND, hopefully a new beam soon...



(Is that a cheer coming from the general vicinity of the UK? )

I feed some reserve to Jinga and Maalor. The rich worlds are going to max factories way ahead of pop anyhow, and I can't remember... did we adopt the no growing pop rule? I'm not going to grow it just in case. I figure the rich worlds can generate reserves/build ships soon regardless. If growing pop IS something we can do, then the next player can do that at the rich worlds and at the UP too.

IT - We get a couple of breakthroughs



This was at "9%" iirc, and so not unexpected. this one, however was a surprise, being only at 3%



The only realistic new choice in Construction is Improved 6 )No reason to go back for 80%)... No Zortium Armor.

Planetology, however, offers us Cloning and Atmospheric Terraforming! Finally we get something good!

I select Atmospheric Terraforming without delay. Hopefully we have Advanced Soil in the tree, but, we at least have Soil, and after converting all our planets to minimal, we'll benefit greatly from either of the Soil Enrichments, which should likely be our next research after Atmospheric.

2419 - I seed Atmospheric and Improved 6 as well as I'm able w/o totally ignoring the other fields. I'm tempted to trade the antidote around immediately, but, I think no, I want to wait one more turn and see if we get some more breakthroughs. The more stuff we have to trade the better, and also... it looks like we MIGHT have a new neighbor soon, and a bit of a surprising one...



Guess we'll see who makes the best colony ship? (Assuming the Klackons know Toxic)

IT - Still more breakthroughs. These were at "7%" each, so a bit of luck there for us.





New choices in propulsion include all 3 options at this level. Yep, that's right. Range 8, Dissipators, and, , Fusion Drives, which I select. Soon we'll have the fearsome Warp 4 + Stabilizer combo... now if only we had a bomb...

In weapons our new choices are...

1) Graveton Beams (might be great if we were going to fight the Alkari, or even the Klackons), which I reject on the principal that the only race these would be useful against would be the Klackons, and it appeared to me that the Silicoids won the settlement race. Everyone else builds Larges and Dreads where caryover is mostly a non factor.

2) Hard Beams, which I reject on the principal that we already have a crappy linear accelerator. OK, this one isn't quite as crappy, but still...

3) Fusion Beams, which I select on the principal that it might be nice to have something besides Hyper-V rockets that can shoot past repulsors.

Yes, this means we don't have Stingers either...

OK, time to see what we can get for that antidote. Lesee... Oh, I like the look of this...



The tech we're about to get in computers is a tier below this one, so we'll basically get to skip a level. Not bad.

And for Death Spores, I pick up this possibly useful goodie



Hey, computer tech is always good, especially when giving away a worthless tech to get it. Add in that we had noting between I and V and III seemed like a good bargain for Death Spores.

OK, now, lesee what the Rocks will give us for antidote. Hmm, did I mention that we'll soon have Warp 4 + stabilizer, but no bomb to complete the 2 move glassmaker?



I think I might have solved that issue...

I try to trade for Range 6 to put us in touch with the humans, but they want BC V, and I think that's too much. I dono, maybe it wasn't. We could talk it over, and the next player could always make that deal on their turn. I suspect giving "advantageous" trades to the humans wouldn't be a big deal, as the humans are likely to be insignificant no matter what.

It's actually a shame that we discovered mass drivers this turn, and perhaps a bit of on my part not to trade the antidote around last turn, or we could have skipped a tech level in weapons too... oh well. There Ref, I did something not right afterall!

Still, we needed a good bomb, and we got one that hopefully will last us till the game ends.

They PROBABLY have better computer tech than that, but, honestly, I dono, because I kinda forgot to do any spying In my defense, I'm usually lazy in SP games and leave a click on everyone, so I just didn't think about it. The next player should probably (OK definitely) rectify how out of date our tech reports are...


Overall, a pretty good 10 turns for us I think. Defenses are a little light, but I think pushing research during my turnset was the right call considering our limited build options. Here's a look at how things stand.









OK, for the next player or two: We'll soon have the tech to build badass bombers - Warp 4 + Stab, which is awesome. So, what are we still deficient in?

CPU: Once our scanner finishes, nothing really.

Planetology: Nothing for the moment. Just need to get Atmos and (Adv) Soil then keep moving up

FF: Planetary shields. This is a big one. Perhaps I erred in trading for BC V and not trying to get Planetary V from the Meklars instead...

Propulsion: Once we get Fusion Drives, we'd only be short a better range tech. Range 6 would put us in contact with the humans. Unknown what we'd need to get contact with the other races, and maybe we'll get lucky and the Klackons will settle the other toxic planet before the Silicoids or Meklar get there. Probably wishful thinking.

Construction: Armor is badly needed imo. Any construction would help with miniaturization as well.

Weapons - Still would be nice to get npg or ion cannons, but holy crap do we need a missile, and unless we get a tech at the next level via non research methods, we're still ages away from researching Pulsons, IF those are in the tree. As near as I can tell, our opponents missile tech sucks as badly as ours, which is great, but... We could also use a troop gun, and we might want to grab the cheap ion rifle after we finish Fusion Beams. Not sure.

We now have the means to make Mass Driver mediums or Larges. What's the best design? I dono. You guys can make some suggestions perhaps? I'll probably defer the designing suggestions to others, and will chime in if asked.

Great report, Maniac - and indeed, that's an enormous amount of really great news!

Of course, No Stingers is ... uh ... the opposite of great news, but that's the way it goes with this tech tree. If something decides to attack us, it should be ... interesting! Fortunately however, we've been building up defenses pretty effectively, and our new Mass Drivers mean we'll at least have some options for dealing with heavily-shielded fleets.

Here's one such option - the one I think I like the best with our current technology - but barring an imminent threat, I think I'd stick with placeholders while waiting for more tech (Improved Space Scanners is now hitting the percentages) to come in.



Large and Huge ships can be very effective, but I don't like building them with cardboard hulls (we're still working with titanium armor and shield II, and don't have auto-repair). A good-sized fleet of destroyers like the Sstrike above carries enough (and accurate-enough) firepower to take on just about anything. Still, we can improve on them when new tech comes in, so I'd wait on them if it were up to me.

On trading for Range 6: I think BC5 is indeed a bit steep, at least until we get another spying report on the Silis. As of our last report (uh ... 21 years ago...) they had highly advanced CPU tech, but there best battle computer was class 2. If this sort of thing keeps up for them, that would be a decidedly good thing.

Some further notes for jmas:
1) You're UP! Which means of course that you have the deciding vote on all of the above and more for the next ten turns!
2) The fleet of six Meklar cruisers inbound to Antares (their nebula world right near Trax) appear to be their old Nexus design: Heavey lasers and nuke missiles with shield class 1 (if any) - so don't panic if they sit around at Antares for a while - and if they do come for Trax, build defenses in the knowledge that the battle is very winnable.
3) There's a galactic election coming up, and for the first time, there's a non-zero chance we may be nominated! Watch the status screen closely (the "population" sliders being key) - bearing in mind that if there's a tie (same number of total votes) it'll be us vs. the Silis. That means Silicoid alliances are potentially BAD news, as would be anyone declaring war on us (unless it's our opposition in the election).

vmxa said:

Lurker:

nice reading so far. One thing that can be big on warp speed is that nukes do not increase the speed of transports, Sub Light does.

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An excellent point, which will definitely come into play (though hopefully via the even-better Fusion Drives) when we inevitably find ourselves at war. This is slightly less important given this game's variant however, since we're not allowed to send transports to any of our own worlds!

Got it. Skimmed the report (looks good ), will read again before playing. I don't know yet if I'll have any time to play today (Wednesday)--maybe, maybe not. Will keep you-all updated..

edit: xpost with Ref. Sorry, I'll be reading your posts more in depth later..

(Is that a cheer coming from the general vicinity of the UK? )

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Denmark is a step further, but yes

I'd have taken Zortium over AMB, we're not in a position to wage offensive war yet and our defenses are still lacking severely. Zortium would have been good for both base and naval defense purpose.

I shall comment more positively when I have time

Concerning ship designs, I agree with RefSteel about Placeholder construction. This serves the triple purpose of not costing us any upkeep, allowing us to store it until a threat approaches AND doesn't force us to invest in ships that'll become obsolete. This is particularly effective with our new scanner, we'll have plenty time to rally.

While our new glassmaking potential is awesome, will it do us any good in the near future? The Meklar and Silicoids are allies, we'd be risking war with both of them if we try something funny. On that note, only (legal) way we'd be able to provoke a war is by stealing techs. Which may take some time, so if we want to go to war anytime soon we may want to start laying a foundation. If we manage to get in touch with the puny humans, we'd have an easy and lucrative target. Really sucks that I lost Antares, we could have defended it easily with laser ships and we'd have maintained contact with the humans.

Does anyone think we should build factories on the UP? The return on such an investment is pitifully low, I'd much rather spend all its production on research (and terraforming, when relevant) and defend it with ships as needed. If somebody wants to conquer it, they'll likely put up some factories for us to steal back. And not having any factories makes it suitable for troop transport duty.

Should we up the trade agreements with Meklar and Silicoids, hoping to ensure peace for a while longer as we decimate the humans? Or just bet on the Silicoids and trying to get them to side with us against the Meklar? My usual trading strategy is to wait with upgrading an agreement until it's maxed out, reasoning that as long as it can keep growing there's no need to change anything. Whereas you're losing out on your investment when the trade value peaks.

Did the Meklar offer anything else for trade? I like trading as soon as I get a new tech, as the AI will sometimes demand more for their goods once you have something better.

Also, are we planning on a scanner design to keep tabs on what our rivals are up to? Having one medium per station would be reasonably cheap.

Well played Maniac, and great report. Thanks for all the pictures

Also, here are our current research values:

FIELD - current RP - RP for optimal interests - proportion allocated for max RP
Computers - 6618 - 496 - 54%
Construction - 891 - 67 - 8%
Force Fields - 3908 - 293 - 32%
Planetology - 841 - 63 - 6%
Propulsion - 1 - 0
Weapons - 1 - 0

= total RP of 919

We are currently doing tech on all developed planets but Beta Ceti, for 2477 RP. That allows a fair bit of seeding, I suggest focusing on Planetology.

Neither race offered much else. Meklar seem to still want Robotics for virtually everything. We should be able to pick up Zortium for Atmospheric from the Silicoids soon.

Even if we WANTED to make people go splat soon, we can't declare war on anyone. Our variant forces us to wait till they declare war on us. Sure. we've left ourselves loopholes there...

It might be worthwhile giving Robotics to the Meklar soon if they're offering anything valuable enough. Especially if it means they'll be willing to trade us other techs for other stuff afterwards. Any idea what they'll give us for Robotics? Wow, 37 year old spying report on the Meklar. I guess none of us remember that stuff

It seems that Beta Ceti is not being funded. It pays off to always have UR planets boosted to double productivity. We can probably produce all ships we'll be needing at Dolz and Beta Ceti now. I'd advise against growing pop on them if we have any use for additional ships, more efficient IMO to let them grow the pop on their own and finish factories gradually.

Catwalk said:

It might be worthwhile giving Robotics to the Meklar soon if they're offering anything valuable enough. Especially if it means they'll be willing to trade us other techs for other stuff afterwards. Any idea what they'll give us for Robotics? Wow, 37 year old spying report on the Meklar. I guess none of us remember that stuff

It seems that Beta Ceti is not being funded. It pays off to always have UR planets boosted to double productivity. We can probably produce all ships we'll be needing at Dolz and Beta Ceti now. I'd advise against growing pop on them if we have any use for additional ships, more efficient IMO to let them grow the pop on their own and finish factories gradually.

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Meklar have not offered anything more useful than IC for it. I checked once 5 turns in, I just didn't mention it.

Beta Ceti is not being funded because it's going to max factories way ahead of pop, and it's good to have some reserves in case of emergency. Until 2 turns ago, there were no reserves to fund it with. IMO, unless we're building ships, which we have not been, we should wait till it maxes factories to begin funding it, at which point we should absolutely fund it every turn on reserve creation or ship creation.

Once we have our new scanner, I would lobby for about 50 of those designs that Ref proposed be made at the UR when it maxes out, and be stationed at either the UP or Maalor, which are "out there" and most vulnerable. Either planet should be close enough to send/receive aid from the other. Otherwise, I think we should not make ships with eggshell hulls.

RE: Zortium vs AMB, I understand your thinking, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but here's why I went with AMB.

Our weapons tree is, to put it bluntly, an unmitigated disaster. We really need FOUR techs to solve this problem.

In missiles, we have nothing between Hyper V and AT LEAST pulsons. Trade prospects in this area look bleak.

In beams, we have nothing that will fit on a fighter, and by the time we can get someone to trade us IC for a reasonable price, IC's shelf life might be dwindling. Remember, other than the Klackons, we've drawn opponents that prefer Large/Huge ships. These usually sport state of the art shields.

We've no personal weapons researched, and can't afford to waste research on Fusion Rifle right now. (Maybe grab Ion rifles?).

Before the trade, we had no really useful bomb (ok, nukes would actually work on the silicoids still... but for how long?) By securing AMB, arguably the games best bomb at any reasonable tech level, at least we've solved this issue, and can concentrate on the other 3.

Further, in an emergency, we could pick up Duralloy from the Slilicoids now, and, I reasoned, Zotium from someone (preferably the Silicoids) for atmospheric. And, really, we only need ONE tech to solve our armor shortcomings. Zortium is good aremor, but it's not "all that" as long as AMB is.

I'm not going to say that I'm absolutely right and you're wrong, because my decision absolutely COULD be wrong. Same as BCV vs planetary V could be wrong. It's a gamble on our ability to stay at peace for the next 10 to 20 turns really. Of we get the assassination event when we hit next turn, then, yeah, I've screwed the pooch.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. And thank you, Catwalk, for the editor. I went ahead and did some things such as increasing spy allocations to try to get spies as soon as possible to get updated reports. Which I figure are reasonable to get before contemplating further tech trades.

I have not hit next turn at all yet, and I may not do so tonight as I am pretty tired... stayed out late last night and had lecture for about six hours today..fun.

I see the mathematical benefit of funding the Ultra Rich world, and I do agree with Maniac's logic on when to do it if we are going to do it. I was a bit curious to ask if others are on board with this tactic. It is one that I generally avoid as I have often found myself feeling like I'm using an exploit and/or giving myself too big of an advantage. But then, I don't usually play without sending colony transports, nor do I generally find myself with no planetary shields OR armor OR missiles above Hyper-V (for a long time) to research.

At least there is a mathematical reason to fund Beta Ceti. Right now I don't see the same applying at Dolz (Rich "only") and I think it would be better to have it work on a placeholder hull-- and maybe even a little research (yes, it does not take advantage of the math of a rich world, but could get us to better ship techs-- and maybe even planetary shields-- faster, which might be more beneficial to the empire as a whole). It isn't going to need any more factories for a while yet as population catches up

I do generally lag in the force fields tech area compared to the others, but in this game, with no armor and no missiles better than hyper V... I'm thinking it's time for a moderate increase in FF funding, to at least get us moving a bit faster to where we can see whether we'll be able to research planetary shield X.

That said, I am still a planetology ho (and a Fertile one at that ), and we are Sakkra, and I agree with the assessment that it's worth seeding and emphasizing planetology.

By the way, Maniac, in the weapons tech box after the next one (admittedly a ways away) are not only Pulson missiles but also scatter pack VII. I am generally not disappointed with the fleet-shredding capabilities of scatter packs...... of course, being able to actually research them would be a big plus.

ToddMarshall said:

Once we have our new scanner, I would lobby for about 50 of those designs that Ref proposed be made at the UR when it maxes out, and be stationed at either the UP or Maalor, which are "out there" and most vulnerable.

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Well, hopefully by the time Maalor does max out (and/or get well into a placeholder) we'll have our new scanners and be able to design something better.

We've no personal weapons researched, and can't afford to waste research on Fusion Rifle right now. (Maybe grab Ion rifles?).

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Not through research, but we got Hand Lasers in trade during Catwalk's turns, so we're not quite at zero (and for that reason, I wouldn't bother with Ion Rifles).

I'm not going to say that I'm absolutely right and you're wrong, because my decision absolutely COULD be wrong. Same as BCV vs planetary V could be wrong. It's a gamble on our ability to stay at peace for the next 10 to 20 turns really. Of we get the assassination event when we hit next turn, then, yeah, I've screwed the pooch.

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Actually, if we get the assassination event - especially against the Meklar - the only reason we might have a chance is because of those AMBs. The big gamble is that we'll be able to hold off cold war fleets, as we'll have to defend ourselves from them, but won't be able to counterattack unless/until our enemy officially declares war!

jmas said:

I have not hit next turn at all yet, and I may not do so tonight as I am pretty tired... stayed out late last night and had lecture for about six hours today..fun.

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Indeed - as I keep trying to tell Maniac, take care of yourself!

I see the mathematical benefit of funding the Ultra Rich world, and I do agree with Maniac's logic on when to do it if we are going to do it. I was a bit curious to ask if others are on board with this tactic. It is one that I generally avoid as I have often found myself feeling like I'm using an exploit and/or giving myself too big of an advantage. But then, I don't usually play without sending colony transports, nor do I generally find myself with no planetary shields OR armor OR missiles above Hyper-V (for a long time) to research.

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I read an old, old, old Imperium report (before my time here at RB in which someone said they never feed reserves to a UR world which is itself making reserves, but that's never been regarded as an exploit by the community at large: It has opportunity costs, like everything else - especially in this game, where we can't send transports, so reserve-building at the planet would require lots of empty factories for some time to come. It seems to me that forbidding reserve spending at URs altogether would itself be out in variant territory; the capacity to spend reserves there for great returns is clearly intended by the game. (And the AI does it as a matter of course, though not constantly at the maximum rate like a human player.)

If we're not going to fund the planet full-time no matter what, there's no earthly reason to make more factories than the population needs - in that case, I'd get started on defense bases or a placeholder ship right away. I'm in favor of allowing reserve spending at any time and any place in this game though, for what it's worth.

By the way, Maniac, in the weapons tech box after the next one (admittedly a ways away) are not only Pulson missiles but also scatter pack VII. I am generally not disappointed with the fleet-shredding capabilities of scatter packs...... of course, being able to actually research them would be a big plus.

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You guys are looking way ahead here. We don't even have a bar of light in the bulb on Fusion Beam! And with this weapons tree? I'll bet we have nothing at the Pulson/ScatterVII tier but a Tachyon Beam.

OK, I missed that we had hand lasers, so we're not horribly gimp there.

I'm not looking way ahead at all. I'd trade pretty much any tech we have for Merculites right now because it's an eternity to a missile if there even IS one at that tier.

Great discussions Hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in everything, I love a good strategy discussion.

ToddMarshall said:

Beta Ceti is not being funded because it's going to max factories way ahead of pop, and it's good to have some reserves in case of emergency. Until 2 turns ago, there were no reserves to fund it with. IMO, unless we're building ships, which we have not been, we should wait till it maxes factories to begin funding it, at which point we should absolutely fund it every turn on reserve creation or ship creation.

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I disagree strongly with this. It maxes factories in 2 turns, or in 1 turn if we feed it reserves. And even if it weren't, it'd be like getting free money. Reserves can be produced efficiently at either Dolz or Beta Ceti (doesn't matter which one although Beta Ceti is closer to the front line so that's the logical choice for Placeholder construction. It's not a game breaking decision, but we're definitely losing out by not doing this.

RE: Zortium vs AMB, I understand your thinking, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but here's why I went with AMB.

Our weapons tree is, to put it bluntly, an unmitigated disaster. We really need FOUR techs to solve this problem.
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Before the trade, we had no really useful bomb (ok, nukes would actually work on the silicoids still... but for how long?) By securing AMB, arguably the games best bomb at any reasonable tech level, at least we've solved this issue, and can concentrate on the other 3.

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I don't think there's any synergy effect there, they're mostly unrelated problems. I just don't see us being able to sustain an offensive campaign against the Meklar anytime soon (especially with them being allied to the Silicoids). If we go to war, we'll need to be on the defensive.

Further, in an emergency, we could pick up Duralloy from the Slilicoids now, and, I reasoned, Zotium from someone (preferably the Silicoids) for atmospheric. And, really, we only need ONE tech to solve our armor shortcomings. Zortium is good aremor, but it's not "all that" as long as AMB is.

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If we will indeed be able to get Zortium from the Silicoids before too long (I hope we'll focus on Planetology research regardless), I'll be more at ease. How sure are you they'll give us Zortium for Atmospheric Terraforming? I would not want to trade them BC mk5 for Duralloy in case of a war, especially since they might honour their alliance anytime and turn on us.

I'm not going to say that I'm absolutely right and you're wrong, because my decision absolutely COULD be wrong. Same as BCV vs planetary V could be wrong. It's a gamble on our ability to stay at peace for the next 10 to 20 turns really. Of we get the assassination event when we hit next turn, then, yeah, I've screwed the pooch.

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I'm never afraid of saying I'm right and you're wrong I actually agree with BC mk5 over Planetary Shield V. It helps our missiles a lot and vastly improves our defensive ships. And it lets us try our hand at spying, if we decide to man up for it

jmas said:

I see the mathematical benefit of funding the Ultra Rich world, and I do agree with Maniac's logic on when to do it if we are going to do it. I was a bit curious to ask if others are on board with this tactic. It is one that I generally avoid as I have often found myself feeling like I'm using an exploit and/or giving myself too big of an advantage. But then, I don't usually play without sending colony transports, nor do I generally find myself with no planetary shields OR armor OR missiles above Hyper-V (for a long time) to research.

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I did ponder that one myself, and decided that it's not an exploit. It's really no different from having it produce placeholder ships all the time, and producing reserves at R or UR planets is hardly an exploit. It's not something that takes a lot of micro either, easy enough to do. As stated above, I disagree with Maniac's logic on when to fund an UR, also in this case.

At least there is a mathematical reason to fund Beta Ceti. Right now I don't see the same applying at Dolz (Rich "only") and I think it would be better to have it work on a placeholder hull-- and maybe even a little research (yes, it does not take advantage of the math of a rich world, but could get us to better ship techs-- and maybe even planetary shields-- faster, which might be more beneficial to the empire as a whole). It isn't going to need any more factories for a while yet as population catches up

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I disagree strongly with research at any R or UR planet. We will be needing ships and reserves in the not too distant future, and we may as well produce those where it's far more cost efficient. Research would be a terrible waste IMO.

I do generally lag in the force fields tech area compared to the others, but in this game, with no armor and no missiles better than hyper V... I'm thinking it's time for a moderate increase in FF funding, to at least get us moving a bit faster to where we can see whether we'll be able to research planetary shield X.

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I agree with FF priority, but it's already well funded and mature. Seeding it further wouldn't be very cost efficient.

That said, I am still a planetology ho (and a Fertile one at that ), and we are Sakkra, and I agree with the assessment that it's worth seeding and emphasizing planetology.

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I always focus too much on Planetology too

By the way, Maniac, in the weapons tech box after the next one (admittedly a ways away) are not only Pulson missiles but also scatter pack VII. I am generally not disappointed with the fleet-shredding capabilities of scatter packs...... of course, being able to actually research them would be a big plus.

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I'd have to agree with this. It's not that far away if we make it our next priority after Planetology, and with 2 good missile techs up for grabs I feel confident we'll get one of them. Yes, I just jinxed us.

RefSteel said:

Well, hopefully by the time Maalor does max out (and/or get well into a placeholder) we'll have our new scanners and be able to design something better.

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Speaking of scanners, should we go ahead and get battle scanner ships stationed around our empire?

You guys are looking way ahead here. We don't even have a bar of light in the bulb on Fusion Beam! And with this weapons tree? I'll bet we have nothing at the Pulson/ScatterVII tier but a Tachyon Beam.

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ToddMarshall said:

I'm not looking way ahead at all. I'd trade pretty much any tech we have for Merculites right now because it's an eternity to a missile if there even IS one at that tier.

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I'm with jmas, I say we take a gamble on superior missile technology. Our alternatives are not good at all, noone wants to trade us missiles.

Also, I posted some insane ideas for an SG variant on the RB forum here, hope you'll take a look and comment