Exclusive: Behind The Scenes Of Sid Meier's Civilization V

Becephalus said:

You do remember that as released it didn't work for 50% of users and there were major patches and even new CDs sent out?

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Nope, this title was distributed in a whopping 3 Floppies, installed without a flaw, never crashed, and provided the most immersive experience of my gaming life in front of a Pentium-2 driven monitor.
As of today -- it works as good if not better than the original in a DosBox.
Never patched, modded plentiful, got two sequels (TFTD & Apocalypse) under its golden plated belt.

Even 2K-Marin has developed *another* attempt at FPS that pretends to be *AS* X-Com with an upcoming Q4'11 release on XBox-360 & PC.

I'll bet the blackish blobs of Aliens and the 50's context will impress Generation_XYAB but it will never standup to the multi-dimensional hypertasking complexity that defending Earth's Geoscape against Invaders was once, even if tactical & isometric.

We'll once again have to wait for a worthy successor, we've been fooled with before.

Thormodr said:

Well, I paid for this game so I and many others have every right to bring up the half arsed nature of the game. If we roll over and accept it, where is the incentive for Firaxis and 2K Games to change in the future?

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In your opinion.

There is no incentive however persistent & repetitive that will...
1) Change the minds of people who already enjoy this product enough to call it a fair deal in THEIR opinion.
2) Enforce Firaxis into implementing any other features and changes that you or anyone else would care to spread around in 100s+ of different ways.

Thormodr, we *ALL* know you regret this purchase -- you've been at it for months -- it's time to let go. This a destructive behavior that would get to your mood eventually and do horrible damages when even just trying to access these forums in search of better news & features you'd wish to have in a game that failed miserably at convincing *YOU*.

I don't know you personnaly, but i won't stand watching you losing interest in just a $60 game. Become an optimist, whistle in the wind of time, blame the weather, hit the keyboard numlock key to flash the del in anger, delete some folders, ask for a refund, - if you must.
But don't give up so easily.

Cuz, it's not what you play for a price. It's what you rationally believe can & will happen.
Understood, buddy?


Now edit or simply delete your sig before you leave...
"It's the responsibility of any fan of Civ to stand up and tell Firaxis and 2K Games in no uncertain terms that this product (Civilization 5 ) is completely unacceptable and that we all deserve better."

My responsibility is clear; i deserve better than being told i should approve or follow the above advice. I have enough misleading junk on TeeVee already.

Zyxpsilon said:

In your opinion.

There is no incentive however persistent & repetitive that will...
1) Change the minds of people who already enjoy this product enough to call it a fair deal in THEIR opinion.
2) Enforce Firaxis into implementing any other features and changes that you or anyone else would care to spread around in 100s+ of different ways.

Thormodr, we *ALL* know you regret this purchase -- you've been at it for months -- it's time to let go. This a destructive behavior that would get to your mood eventually and do horrible damages when even just trying to access these forums in search of better news & features you'd wish to have in a game that failed miserably at convincing *YOU*.

I don't know you personnaly, but i won't stand watching you losing interest in just a $60 game. Become an optimist, whistle in the wind of time, blame the weather, hit the keyboard numlock key to flash the del in anger, delete some folders, ask for a refund, - if you must.
But don't give up so easily.

Cuz, it's not what you play for a price. It's what you rationally believe can & will happen.
Understood, buddy?

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Thormodr, we *ALL* know you regret this purchase -- you've been at it for months -- it's time to let go. This a destructive behavior that would get to your mood eventually and do horrible damages when even just trying to access these forums in search of better news & features you'd wish to have in a game that failed miserably at convincing *YOU*

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Considering the fact that I've seen you type in clear, coherent sentences on other internet forums I'm going to ask you straight up why you'd bother posting such gobbledygook in response to my at least understandable post. (Even if you don't agree with it.)

Anyway, I'll put it simply. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything.

The game is crapola and it is my duty as a Civ fan to tell 2K Games and Firaxis in no uncertain terms that this is clearly unacceptable. I won't get violent or go crazy or do whatever your shoddily written cryptic post suggests I might be capable of doing.

Understood buddy?

Zyxpsilon said:

Nope, this title was distributed in a whopping 3 Floppies, installed without a flaw, never crashed, and provided the most immersive experience of my gaming life in front of a Pentium-2 driven monitor.
As of today -- it works as good if not better than the original in a DosBox.
Never patched, modded plentiful, got two sequels (TFTD & Apocalypse) under its golden plated belt.

Even 2K-Marin has developed *another* attempt at FPS that pretends to be *AS* X-Com with an upcoming Q4'11 release on XBox-360 & PC.

I'll bet the blackish blobs of Aliens and the 50's context will impress Generation_XYAB but it will never standup to the multi-dimensional hypertasking complexity that defending Earth's Geoscape against Invaders was once, even if tactical & isometric.

We'll once again have to wait for a worthy successor, we've been fooled with before.

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It also had a CD release, I bought the game at release on CD and they had to ship me new CDs because they didn't work (I later found out that was true for most of the CD versions at release).

That was my point, you post is talking past that. XCOM is still my favorite game. I have played it maybe 5 different times. Every 3 years or so I fire it up.

Thormodr said:

The game is crapola and it is my duty as a Civ fan to tell 2K Games and Firaxis in no uncertain terms that this is clearly unacceptable. I won't get violent or go crazy or do whatever your shoddily written cryptic post suggests I might be capable of doing.

Understood buddy?

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Alright, respect my opinion... and i'll consider yours.

CiV is not (to re-use the same font sizing of your hypnotic ranting sig) crapola. It's not *OUR* duty to flood these (or any) forums with derogative observations of a developer which has been serving the CFC community and plenty more of their customers with a series of Civilization titles for years.

Now, if i were to start a discussion on the qualities of the game... according to most posts track record, i highly doubt a few specific members would show up to share constructive comments as proven by an obvious agenda signified online continuously.

If someone is offering a rant thread, i've got more chances to find the usual group of familiar members than in anything vaguely similar to the above.

On every patch, that specific group of people is suddenly reappearing out of the woods... and, here we go again. The same loop starts all over again.

Nothing will satisfy them. Even if CiV were to be turned back into Civ1-2-3-4 with as many different or new features than those found in the current state it is in.

There is something fundamentally wrong in the negativity expressed by undeserved attacks on a game i or anyone else enjoys playing and when someone can't respect that, they are in for a ride. Provocation leads to retaliation or silence (but in that case, damage & destruction continues!).
To make things worst... we were all happily & quietly involved in a *Behind the Scenes...* thread where facts flew freely. Bang, here comes the usual interruptions; we are actually being told that we are a bunch of idiots for liking this game. Wise remarks, a tiny reference here and there that should do the trick according to them.
It's psychotic. Moderator Action: This comment is a little much Zyxpsilon.
It's focused.
It's aimed & directed at.
It's continual.
It's repetitive.
And, it's annoying.

Bad behavior & manners don't get infracted here (at times, i can understand - moderators are trying to make sense of a mess so large that it floods the replies count, relentlessly, progressively -- feels like spam & denial of service attacks at that), but defending the title is judged as being too harsh when we sweep through the attitudes.

Some took sides. Keep going, we'll meet again.
If i must (or rather, am being drawn to) crank out the volume, then listen or give up.
Simple as that.

It's nothing personal, buddies.

Actually this modular design is deliberate. You take features out of the core product so that you can reintroduce them later for an extra fee (as add-ons, plug-ins, extensions or in the case of computer games DLC). All the big boys are doing it including Microsoft, VMware, etc. Programmers are rolling around in cash these days.

Thormodr said:

In Canada, we've got a saying. If you don't vote, don't b*tch! (about the government)
Well, I paid for this game so I and many others have every right to bring up the half arsed nature of the game. If we roll over and accept it, where is the incentive for Firaxis and 2K Games to change in the future?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

We paid, it's our fault too.

Such is the recipe for risk that sometimes skims the coin toss paradox; i claim luck has nothing to do with perceivable failure or illicit attempts at "Holding" features for later implementation.
More like, rapid innovation can't keep up with CPU, RAM (etc) or lags long enough to prevent software from being optimal upon release.
These are ephemeral conditions that in even the best planned structure of production, a release is asynchronously too late for feasible market competition.
It's the model.
You buy the car, you fix the flat tires, you repaint to hide rust, you envy the newest cervo-direction of Joe down the street, you shop for another. Loop back.
Consuming. The cycle, recycle anomaly.

Games can be a fuel-efficient V6 or the magwheels custom bolid with thrush muffler that roars ahead of the Harley bicycle... eat my dust.

But, you needed to expand its stock capacities.
If CiV was the V12_Ferrari, you'd still want the F1.
But all have an engine on specs.

He said that we all payed full price to Beta test the game... there's absolutely nothing to be mad about. Really! Why complain at least we have a "foundation" right. Plus he said they've good intention! So really now, why should we be angry?! Be happy and in a year or so, you may get something for your money... but hey!!! It will only be 49.99$... not much when you think about it! heh!

You know, I gave Civ5 another try after the new spiffy patch came out. I re-installed and played for about 3 hours before it blue screened yet again.

There were some very good improvements, and the game is certainly improved. I am one of those "haters" who feels victimized by the marketing department. I feel like 2K reached into my purse and just made off with $60. In return, they left me a half broken, unfinished game. A game that I have, to this day, never been able to complete an entire game due to boredom, or crashes. Now, they're basically admitting that they released a beta version at our expense. I'm not going to get into the immature argument of justifying Firaxis/2K's actions, other than to say that the game that they released is not the game they promised those of us that pre-ordered. And you can say that I should be wearing a tinfoil hat all you wish, but it won't change the fact that I feel that we were mislead. IDGAF what you think. The designers cheated us, and now we have to wait until they repair the game enough to give it the immersive qualities and level of play that this franchise is noted for. We provided venture capital for the developers to complete game, basically. I think that's what upsets some people, and turns them into "haters". There, that explains that.

I was one of few (long time) people here at first that was actually trying to embrace the new game. To give it a fair try out before I grumbled. This forum basically degenerated into a childish bout of "Is not!" "Is too!" I've honestly seen better behavior in the psych wards where I've worked in my career, and it seems that it's still that way. Everyone is still finger pointing and barking at each other over a stupid piece of software.

For the "haters", you've made your point. It's flawed, and we were mislead. Ok, boo hoo.

For the "fans", it wasn't handed down by angels, directly from God's hands. It has bugs and people don't like that. Deal with it.

It's a game, kiddies. It's just a game.

Lemon Merchant said:

You know, I gave Civ5 another try after the new spiffy patch came out. I re-installed and played for about 3 hours before it blue screened yet again.

There were some very good improvements, and the game is certainly improved. I am one of those "haters" who feels victimized by the marketing department. I feel like 2K reached into my purse and just made off with $60. In return, they left me a half broken, unfinished game. A game that I have, to this day, never been able to complete an entire game due to boredom, or crashes. Now, they're basically admitting that they released a beta version at our expense. I'm not going to get into the immature argument of justifying Firaxis/2K's actions, other than to say that the game that they released is not the game they promised those of us that pre-ordered. And you can say that I should be wearing a tinfoil hat all you wish, but it won't change the fact that I feel that we were mislead. IDGAF what you think. The designers cheated us, and now we have to wait until they repair the game enough to give it the immersive qualities and level of play that this franchise is noted for. We provided venture capital for the developers to complete game, basically. I think that's what upsets some people, and turns them into "h*ters". There, that explains that.

I was one of few (long time) people here at first that was actually trying to embrace the new game. To give it a fair try out before I grumbled. This forum basically degenerated into a childish bout of "Is not!" "Is too!" I've honestly seen better behavior in the psych wards where I've worked in my career, and it seems that it's still that way. Everyone is still finger pointing and barking at each other over a stupid piece of software.

For the "haters", you've made your point. It's flawed, and we were mislead. Ok, boo hoo.

For the "fans", it wasn't handed down by angels, directly from God's hands. It has bugs and people don't like that. Deal with it.

It's a game, kiddies. It's just a game.

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Pretty well put.

However, "h*ters" is a pretty strong term that isn't helpful or appropriate.

Personally, I don't hate the game. I, like you said, want to see Firaxis deliver the product that their marketers promised.

They owe us all a lot for beta testing their game. As you put it, we provided venture capital so they could complete the game. The game was released 1-2 years too early too placate 2K Game's shareholders. Treating long time fans like that is reprehensible.

This is clearly unacceptable behaviour. Some people on these forums seem to be cool with that for some reason. I'm not and will continue to not be cool with it until they fix this mess and clean up their tarnished reputation. That's going to take a long time.

Thormodr said:

They owe us all a lot for beta testing their game. As you put it, we provided venture capital so they could complete the game. The game was released 1-2 years too early too placate 2K Game's shareholders. Treating long time fans like that is reprehensible.

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I completely agree with this but in a different way.
While customers were being used to beta-test it, the *CASUAL* market was invited into the franchise. It's a ploy to draw more players into the realm of ___ON-Line___ distribution by Steam.
The Hard_Core group of hyper-fans is leftout of a more challenging TBS product (after all, they are aware of any of the previous titles having mastered Deity and beyond), i agree too.

Now, think in tactical terms for a business.

I am a modder, and i know i can fiddle with this gameplay if given a powerful enough SDK. We, in fact, were being offered a bunch (extremely complex & powerful) of design decisions by the concept itself.
Devs have actually let us in on the action.

They gave us the basic framework and told us all - enjoy, we trust all of you can bring this product to even more potential while adding features, supplemental stuff, backward or forward elements, code tricks and what else. One only has to witness the incredible amount of Re_Balancing mods available already. Still growing. Getting wiser, getting nerdy, hitting everyone including the Casuals & yes again, the Beta-Testers too.

Yes, the marketers made promises. They don't know ziltch about a compiled executable.
Yes, the long time fans were mislead. They just want to play, now.

Even in this very thread -- there is a splendid hint for all to simply read; External Design Team.

Not only is it somehow innovative on Firaxis part... but it is for all gamers out there. Even the impatient ones. Even the marketers. Even the Testers. Even you. Even CFC members. Even me.

From Alpha to Omega; Call it the Test_of_Time and the Warlords+BTS trick of 2010+... but actually faster and externally enforced by us gamers & modders instead of staff.

Amazing decision (By Dennis, Ed, Jon, even Meier and the whole gang of - yes, crooks if you prefer the tactical term in the Gaming Industry!) - indeed.

PS; For those "worried" how strong 2K is... (cough-financially-cough) to provide continuous support on any of their products. Catch the latest updates.

Lemon Merchant said:

...I re-installed and played for about 3 hours before it blue screened yet again...If you are getting blue screens that is your system's problem, the game has a lot of issues, stability isn't one of them...
I am one of those "haters" who feels victimized by the marketing department...You are an adult and haven't figured out that all marketing is lies? Every single computer game would be a 10/10 if you paid attention to the marketing. I'll give you a pro-tip, don't pay attention to any marketing, zero.... I feel like 2K reached into my purse and just made off with $60...No they sold you a product you didn't like. Happens all the time, welcome to the world of grown up commerce...In return, they left me a half broken, unfinished game...While certainly unfinished I wouldn't call the game broken, bad yes, broken no...Now, they're basically admitting that they released a beta version at our expense...I didn't see them admit any such thing... I'm not going to get into the immature argument of justifying Firaxis/2K's actions, other than to say that the game that they released is not the game they promised those of us that pre-ordered...but it won't change the fact that I feel that we were mislead...The designers cheated us, and now we have to wait until they repair the game enough to give it the immersive qualities and level of play that this franchise is noted for...You regularly get what was promised from marketers? You must live in a different country than me because here in the US most people I think are bright (and you seem bright) know that marketing and advertisements are lies...
I was one of few (long time) people here at first that was actually trying to embrace the new game...I think there were a lot of long time players who gave it a chance, I have been here since 2000 or 2002 IIRC. I think the motivation to go post about something when you are like "meh, not what I would have hoped" is much lower than the small minority who decided to declare jihad on Firaxis. I also think to this day most of the discontent was from players who were only familiar with Civ 4 and didn't go through the Civ3 debacle as very few of them had responses when that was brought up...To give it a fair try out before I grumbled. This forum basically degenerated into a childish bout of "Is not!" "Is too!" The only people being childish are the haters. I see one side arguing for maturity and realism and to understand that Firaxis is a business not a group personal entertainment creation slaves. The product may be sub par it may not be what people hoped for, but some people like it and the world has not ended. I see another group crying "Oh a company lied to me and sold me something that isn't exactly what I wanted. There has been grave moral injustice we must make them pay!"...Everyone is still finger pointing and barking at each other over a stupid piece of software...It is a stupid piece of software and yet you yourself use words like "cheated", no one cheated you out of anything, you got EXACTLY what you paid for. That you haven't learned after 2 decades of game developers not living up to expectation to not buy things at release if you are at all risk averse is your own fault. ..for the "fans", it wasn't handed down by angels, directly from God's hands. It has bugs and people don't like that. Deal with it...Umm I see almost no "fans" arguing the game is perfect, I think almost all of them admit it is deeply flawed. Some still think it is fun, (I know that is heresy).

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Look Firaxis's job is to make money NOT to make good games. They only care about the later to the extent it impact the former. Your job is to not waste your hard earned money. One group here did its job and another group didn't. And yet people blame Firaxis.

If you are foolish enough to be fooled by game developers I cannot wait to see how broke you are after the banks and credit card companies and mortgage lenders get done with you.

Personally I will wait a few more months until the first expansion comes out, and then if people like it maybe I'll come back to CiV. Hopefully until then people can keep the accusations of "cheating" and "stealing" to a minimum.

Becephalus said:

Look Firaxis's job is to make money NOT to make good games. They only care about the later to the extent it impact the former. Your job is to not waste your hard earned money. One group here did its job and another group didn't. And yet people blame Firaxis.

If you are foolish enough to be fooled by game developers I cannot wait to see how broke you are after the banks and credit card companies and mortgage lenders get done with you.

Personally I will wait a few more months until the first expansion comes out, and then if people like it maybe I'll come back to CiV. Hopefully until then people can keep the accusations of "cheating" and "stealing" to a minimum.

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A very nice job of adding to my post, but you missed the main point.

I explained at the beginning how I feel about the way that the game was marketed. That's my own personal view, and I shared that to make the point that even though I felt this way, I feel that this stupid arguing of "The game is fantastic!" vs "The game is an affront to humanity!" has gone on long enough. If you had read more carefully...

And I'm not stupid. I have a cell phone, and Canadian cable TV/internet. I might be a dyke, but I know very well what it feels like to get screwed.

Thormodr said:

Pretty well put.

They owe us all a lot for beta testing their game. As you put it, we provided venture capital so they could complete the game. The game was released 1-2 years too early too placate 2K Game's shareholders. Treating long time fans like that is reprehensible.

This is clearly unacceptable behaviour. Some people on these forums seem to be cool with that for some reason. I'm not and will continue to not be cool with it until they fix this mess and clean up their tarnished reputation. That's going to take a long time.

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Come on, Thormodr. He's right when he's telling you to quit. The Civ franchise is just dead for players like you and me.

There's no arguing, it's finished. There is no turning back from what they did. They took Civ, removed 80% of what made it a Civ game, and released that in a half-finished full of bugs new shiny game. There is no turning back. You won't have any future Civ with the spirit of Civ1 (though you may have other new games from other developpers, which I hope, as we had mom, moo, etc...).

There's nothing salvageable in Civ 5 :
- the game design is complete fail
- the AI design is complete fail
- the engine performance is complete fail (you actually need a better computer to play a Civ 5, a turn based game, than to play WoW or SC2. It has roughly the same requirements than Crysis )
- etc ...

Zogar said:

There's nothing salvageable in Civ 5 :
- the game design is complete fail
- the AI design is complete fail
- the engine performance is complete fail (you actually need a better computer to play a Civ 5, a turn based game, than to play WoW or SC2. It has roughly the same requirements than Crysis )
- etc ...

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And yet.. if they took Civ 4: BTS, converted it to DX11 graphics, and sold it as Civ 5, you'd complain that you just paid $60 for the game you already have.

forty2j said:

And yet.. if they took Civ 4: BTS, converted it to DX11 graphics, and sold it as Civ 5, you'd complain that you just paid $60 for the game you already have.

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If it was only a graphics makeover I certainly wouldn't pay $60.

If it added to cIV:BTS's great gameplay and deep, enriching game experience as well and truly made it even better, while fixing some of its problems then I'd have no problem forking out $60.

At least they wouldn't have had to lie to us about what we were getting.

Zogar said:

Come on, Thormodr. He's right when he's telling you to quit. The Civ franchise is just dead for players like you and me.

There's no arguing, it's finished. There is no turning back from what they did. They took Civ, removed 80% of what made it a Civ game, and released that in a half-finished full of bugs new shiny game. There is no turning back. You won't have any future Civ with the spirit of Civ1 (though you may have other new games from other developpers, which I hope, as we had mom, moo, etc...).

There's nothing salvageable in Civ 5 :
- the game design is complete fail
- the AI design is complete fail
- the engine performance is complete fail (you actually need a better computer to play a Civ 5, a turn based game, than to play WoW or SC2. It has roughly the same requirements than Crysis )
- etc ...

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You could be right. It certainly was a giant step backwards anyway.

Nature abhors a vacuum though. I am sure that a young, enterprising company will come along that will offer a great Civ-like experience eventually.

Might take awhile though.

SO, back to the point of the thread...

This seems to validate what I've felt all along, I've felt I have an enjoyable game that has a lot of room for improvement. The patching and DLCs (love the DLC civs except for Mongolia, well worth the investment) have really improved and added to the original product, and to hear that there is recognition that

1) The AI needs better ability to handle it's troops and diplomacy and
2) Systems stripped out can now be added on

Is heartening. I've always felt that by the time Civ V reaches it's second expansion, it will be the best Civ game ever.

So what features do you think are coming back? I think they need health, as a limitation on productivity and growth on an individual city. Use happiness as a global limitation, but make health city-specific so that each city needs to care for it's health.

I also would like to see espionage and random events return. For random evens I hope they have a splash screen artwork, like when you complete a wonder. Natural disasters, riots, coups, etc., and many more events that are related to social policy selection (if you beef up autocracy you get riots, demands for free elections, etc.) would really add a nice layer to this game.

I'd like to see two new social policy trees as well: Subterfuge and Environmentalism. Subterfuge conflicts with Honor, but greatly improves spying, espionage mission types, etc. Environmentalism is the only way (other than perhaps via a new wonder) to really impact health on a global scale. Certain policies would limit unhealthiness from buildings, others would provide boosts, etc.

I have other ideas for what I'd like to see, but I'll stop here (so I don't just keep writing a wish list).

Zogar said:

Come on, Thormodr. He's right when he's telling you to quit. The Civ franchise is just dead for players like you and me.

There's no arguing, it's finished. There is no turning back from what they did. They took Civ, removed 80% of what made it a Civ game, and released that in a half-finished full of bugs new shiny game. There is no turning back. You won't have any future Civ with the spirit of Civ1 (though you may have other new games from other developpers, which I hope, as we had mom, moo, etc...).

There's nothing salvageable in Civ 5 :
- the game design is complete fail
- the AI design is complete fail
- the engine performance is complete fail (you actually need a better computer to play a Civ 5, a turn based game, than to play WoW or SC2. It has roughly the same requirements than Crysis )
- etc ...

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That's a scary and sad post. For now I'm trying hard to like Civ5, and with ridiculous AI bonuses at least Deity is somewhat challenging. But yeah, I see what Firaxis is saying:

"Yo, adults, you're worthless as customers cause you've got too much gaming experience and expectations for our taste, we prefer selling stuff to kids without too much hassle, so piss off, go to work and earn money to buy this crap we're making for your children - they'll like it anyway, everybody's happy. Gaming is over for you!"

sigh

Is there really no company out there willing to start making games for grown-ups?