OSG 24 - The Guns of Sssla

You're right about being able to outrun with Fusion +IS. We'd only need AMB if we build with S-LD. Strangely, once our FF tech hits, we'd be able to build dreads with shield 5 to take on their damage 6 missiles

Actually, if their missile tech continues to suck this bad, AND we can get our hands on repulsors, we could probably build Repulsor + Shield + Heavy Fusion Beam ships that would be neigh invulnerable. Not something you usually even consider building at this point in the game. It's too bad we don't have auto repair. Maybe the bugs would cough that up for Atmospheric if we dare trade them that.

I've got the save, but it appears to be from 2429, not 2430! Is there a newer save I should use instead, or shall I just play on from this one?

Okay, now that I've had a chance to look at the save: Nicely done, jmas - and thanks for the detailed report! As mentioned by Maniac and Catwalk, things are looking great!

Suggestion for future use: (Unless this is an artifact of my XP Dosbox interface) If you just want to max out the weapons in a weapon slot without wearing out your clicking finger, put your mouse over the arrow that increases the number of weapons, and just hold down the ENTER key on your keyboard for a bit.

One correction: The strategy guide quotes what the AI is supposed to get angry about (in terms of amassing fleets). In reality, the AI gets angry about ships on its borders when you start building a large number of ships pretty much at all - at least if you have Sublight or better engines (kyrub discovered the exact mechanics of this bugged behavior, and corrected it in his unofficial patch; we should try playing an SG under that patch at some point, by the way).

That said, since relations with the Humans are currently at Feud(!), I don't think we really have to do anything more to make them angry. I expect to be at war with them by the end of my turns no matter what I do. (Especially since I'll be spying on them constantly!)

Graviton Beams are indeed usually better than Mass Drivers for a long time - almost everything is better than MDs - but they're not in the same tier; we didn't know GBs would be available until we finished MD research, the main point of which was to reach the GB/Fusion-Beam/if-only-we-had-Stingers tier ASAP. Fusion Beams are very useful, the last beam on the tree with both a normal and heavy (2-space) mount, so I'm happy with all the choices that were made.

By the way: One thing I definitely expect to do during my turns is to scrap the old Warp-2 Fighters and Sssentries. They're still doing something useful for now though, as the new Masssdrv fighters haven't reached Maalor yet, so I won't do it right away. (There's no longer any reason to have a ship above each of our developed worlds; missile bases serve the purpose equally well.)

Finally: If I'm not told otherwise, I'll play the turns starting from 2429 sometime tomorrow, since that's the save I've got. I'm not going to try to play exactly the way jmas did on the final turn because I don't have detailed knowledge of what he did (unless the save he posted is the way he left it at end of turn; I suspect it's from when the turn began). I'm also not going to reload if I get different results than he did (e.g. if our Human spy doesn't get caught - or even gets a tech hit - or if someone declares war on us, or if Sssla goes Poor or something, those are the breaks) because that would be time-consuming and lame (and might unintentionally give me information I wouldn't otherwise have). That is, unless someone objects (or jmas has and posts a 2430 save), I'll just play on from 2429 as though the last turn of jmas's set hadn't been played.

Sorry. Here. And thank you for the comments, that was helpful. I agree about the patch -- I thought you were the sadist masochist purist who wanted to play all the public games with the unpatched game.

Catwalk said:

Looks really good Did you do research on Dolz?

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Nope, built SHIP.

And did you try out the research editor? I keep two DOSBox windows open, that way I only have to save the game to be able to open it in the editor. Also lets me keep that window open while still being in the game.

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Yes, that's what I did. Thx..

jmas said:

Sorry. Here. And thank you for the comments, that was helpful. I agree about the patch -- I thought you were the sadist masochist purist who wanted to play all the public games with the unpatched game.

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I think I've been leaning on him a little (I'm sure that's not the only reason). I pretty much play all SP games on the patch now. I really like the bug fixes. In addition to all the things that it fixed, the AI is now a LOT better at expanding. It feels a half level of difficulty harder.

I meant to comment on the Mass Driver thing too, but forgot. I'd pretty much have said exactly what Ref said. Most of the time, everything is better than mass drivers unless it's called laser, and we really should have a 2 space beam.

There is one more level with a 2 space beam, though, which is phasors. I don't think I've ever made a design with heavy phasors though, and I REALLY hope we don't research phasors this game. With Scatter Pack VII, Pulsons, and one of my three favorite beams (along with npg and megabolt), Auto Blasters at that level, it's not something I usually research even if I DO have good missiles before then.

jmas said:

Sorry. Here.

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In that case, GOT IT! I start work shortly (yes, on a Sunday) but I'll try to get a pre-flight plan up during a break and then to play and post later today.

I agree about the patch -- I thought you were the sadist masochist purist who wanted to play all the public games with the unpatched game.

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I must have communicated very poorly on this one. I was hesitant to run Imperia under the patch when kyrub regarded it as incomplete/unready, but the main reason we haven't done anything with it latetly is sheer inertia ... and not knowing how many people use the thing. I also suspect it's a lot easier to showcase the patch (and ensure there's a quorum of players who want to use it before we start) in an SG than an Imperium. But I love the work kyrub has done, and I'm eager to play an RB event with his latest patch!

I'm definitely up for using it in the next SG, looking forward to that. On that note, is everybody gobsmacked at how outlandishly horrible my SG suggestions on the RB forum are?

Okay, inherited-turn activity:

- F8 shows nothing incoming. Good.

- Replace the GovtWasste design with an even more expensive GiantWasste dreadnought, per jmas's suggestion.

- Switch Jinga and Maalor to full IND spending to start getting their facs caught up with their population - terraforming can wait for now, as we lizards will grow fast enough without it, we have too little production on those worlds so far to terraform efficiently, and they're not close to their size caps.

- Order most planets to just do one thing at a time since we lizards just aren't clever enough to do two things efficiently on the same world. (Actually, of course, this is by no means unique to lizards...)

- Reduce overall spying and switch it over to the Meks. I'll make sure to keep at least one spy on the Humans at all times, but I won't do much more than that until I have reports on everyone else.

- Plan to design a bomber later in my turns, but not right away. It'll probably be a dedicated monkey killer, intended to cost the least total resources for a fleet that can take out the human worlds. Though it goes against all my MoO instincts (ECM on a ship? Just one bomb when I could fit two with the same engine?) I might even go with something like jmas's design - since human targeting accuracy is so lousy, we could probably take Sol in a battle of attrition with about twenty of the things. By the time we get rid of the monkeys, we'll have the technology we need for real bombers - nothing we can make yet has enough tactical speed - so the real question is how to do the most damage to the humans at the lowest price in BCs, before scrapping whatever we use to accomplish the feat. That said, I don't expect to build any ship with less than two AMBs: If nothing else, I'll be trying to trade for some tech right away, before hitting Next Turn.

Goals for my turn set (as always, these are NOT in priority order) - 2329 until 2340:
1) Get factories up to thrice the population on all non-Kailis worlds and terraform all planets to +30.
2) Land Atmospheric Terraforming.
3) Get II6, Class 5 shields, and Fusion Beam at least into decent percentages.
4) Either get Fusion Drives into the percentages ... or acquire Impulse Drives by other means.
5) Acquire Planetary Shields and a missile capable of doing >6 damage, plus more computer technology. For extra credit, get a beam and/or bomb that can fit on a fighter hull.
6) Have fun playing the turns and writing the report!

I'll check back here for comments when I get home in a few hours, then play and report.

I still think AMR is better than a Jammer. It's almost the exact same size, and will wipe out 32% of Hyper-X missiles.

I also highly suggest trading with the humans for the techs I mentioned upthread: H-X, Planetary V, IC (so we can make fighters) or Fusion Bomb (so we can make smalls) .

ToddMarshall said:

I still think AMR is better than a Jammer. It's almost the exact same size, and will wipe out 32% of Hyper-X missiles.

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Actually, we happened to be at the perfect sweet spot when my turns began - because of our maneuverability and Human ECM - for a Jammer to be slightly better: It's fully a 1/3 improvement, and like 2 BC cheaper or something. The difference is microscopic, obviously.

Anyway, don't worry: I'm not putting ECM on my bombers. As mentioned, I wanted to get some more tech and design something that at least carries two bombs. I've done that. Also some other things. Unfortunately, I won't be able to finish my turns tonight, as various things came up and it got too late - but I'm more than half way through, and I'll post a report tomorrow.

Oh. And a sneak preview:

I also highly suggest trading with the humans for the techs I mentioned upthread: H-X, Planetary V, IC (so we can make fighters) or Fusion Bomb (so we can make smalls) .

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The Humans declared war on us as soon as I hit Next Turn. I'd done a (very) little tech trading with them already by then, but they didn't have patience for much talking.

But we have all four of those techs now anyway.

(And I'm still hoping against hope for new techs coming in to make an F-Bomb small design worthwhile, but right now we can't build one that can punch a hole in a paper bag unless it moves like a tortoise on tranquilizers.)

Catwalk said:

I'm definitely up for using it in the next SG, looking forward to that. On that note, is everybody gobsmacked at how outlandishly horrible my SG suggestions on the RB forum are?

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Sorry - just haven't had time to respond to these yet. Right now, I'm working on making time for my turns (after I manage to finally get some sleep) but I'll look at them when I have an opportunity.

Sounds good How about a Medium bomber? At speed 4, it can dodge missiles easily. We could use 2 or 3 different designs and keep the bases from hitting us.

Seeing that we've acquired my entire laundry list I think we're in good shape for the foreseeable future. I really thought we were in a lot of trouble at the beginning, but it looks really good now.

RE: next SG. If we play the next one on the patch, I think we should do something a bit more vanilia for the first patch game. Maybe Impossible with one of the 4 worst races with maybe just one restriction. The way the AI expands so much better, Impossible w/o variants is pretty dern hard on the patch as is. After that, we could look into more variants.

[The following are key excerpts from "The Offiscial Transscript of Gunsslinger RefSsteel III's Sspeeches, Declamations, Pronounscementss, and Vague Mutterings," Camera Obsscura Publisshing Corporation, Sssla, 2440]

2430: If you please, Emperor Bladrov, I sshould like to trade technolo...
Yess ... yess ... I see you do have Hyper-X rockets available, and I know exs-Gunsslinger Maniac was threatening to perssonally behead me if I don't acquire them, but I've requessted a resstraining order, and I perssonally conssider Planetary Ssshields a better place to sstart negotiations. What'ss that you ssay? You'll accept an Antidote for them? Very wise; very wise. Those death sspores that my predescesssors accsidentally allowed to fall into Meklar and Silicoid hands are a nassty businesss.



And you ssay you're sstill willing to trade those Hyper-X rockets? Fantasstic. And what do you assk of uss in exschange?

...

Computer tech, you ssay? Like, Robotic Controls at a minimum? Hang on; let me check ssomething.

Oh, good. My resstraining order has gone through. I ssay thee nay! Now, let'ss ssee if we can make ssome other ... what? You're going? Already? (ssssigh) Very well. Good day.


2431: Yess, Bladrov? I ssee thiss time, you have come calling on me! What did you wissh to ssay?



Maybe I sshould have given him those robotic controls after all, then? War it is, I'm afraid. I guesss the only thing to do is to build another of our Sscannas at Trax, sso we can have a look at the Human fleet.


2432: Brave pilot, brave crew, as you depart through the unknown reaches of the Antaran Nebula, remember your altruisstic goal: To sspy disscretely on the sspace defensses of Sol sso we can desstroy them all and exsterminate all the humans there at our liesure!


2433: I read you, Sspecial Agent Ssecretname. You're where? At a ssecret lab on the Human Rigel colony? Excsellent. They have databases for every technological field there excsept for Propulsion? All the better. Let'ss ssee. Sshall I take computers to improve your chances in the future, or Planetology for the scertainty of economy-boosting Enhanced Eco? It'ss a tough choice but ... wait, you did what already?



Fusion Bombs?! Why did you choose weapons without my permisssion?! And why are you ssticking your tongue out at me?! Hssssssssss! I'll sshow him! My ssubordinatess musst not believe they can make fools of me! Nothing sshall disstract me from ... what'ss thiss? A report from my sscience teams? Ooooooh! YESSSSSS! Ssend them in!

YESS! Yessssss! YESS, YESSS, YESSSSSSS!!! I commend you all on your sswift ressearch of Atmospheric terraforming! I'll even forgive you for pretending the odds as of lasst year were "only 10%." And as for having Advanced Soil Enrichment in our tree ... I'm sspeechlesss. You all are brilliant! Go ssee if you can teach our other sscientissts how to do things properly. (Esspescially ssince I don't actually have the resoursces to fund an Advanced Soil project right away....)

Now, what exactly was I doing before they came in? Hmmm ... talking to somebody ... or planning to talk to ... Kikitik, maybe?



I ... may have gotten a little carried away. But I like Automated Repair Systems, even if the bugs do learn Atmosspheric Terraforming in exchange. Thiss is going to be worth it ssome day; believe me. Hmmmm ... but Maniac might not be too happy with all thisss. He might even ignore the resstraining order. Let'ss ssee. He wanted to trade ssomeone Mass Drivers ssince he thinkss they're totally lame, sso how about if I offer it to the M5-35? I'm sure he won't mind that all I get back is a Mark II ECM Jammer. My sspies could use the help, and I need more miniaturization! ... Hmmm ... sspies.... What was I ssupposed to do with ... oh, well. It'll come to me.


2434: According to my latesst galactic review, Jinga is now the only hostile world in Sakkra sspace! Ssadly, it'ss going to remain that way for a while; that planet has practically no production capability. What it needs is more factories!

2435: I read you, Traxian Sscanna; yess, I undersstand you've reached the Sol ssysstem. They've got 38 Hyper-X Bases, do they? Each with ten layers of sshields? Well, that was more or lesss to be exspected. Let'ss have a look at their fleet.



I ssee. ... I ... ssee. Sso, these new bombers I've just designed without actually building any aren't ever getting built, are they? And the whole idea of small Fusion Bombers is bassically a no-go for today. That Dreadstar and itss Energy Pulsar have as much combat sspeed as we can hope for at present. Uh. Carry on then, Sscanna. Head on home, okay?

What are we going to do about that fleet? We'll have to ... eh? Yess, I'm available to my Vasst Legions of Sspy. He's on Artemis, now? In another ssecret human lab? And all fields are available there? Ssweet! Now, computers, or planetology, or ... you know, if we pick propulssion, we'll either get Impulse Drives right away (Yessssssss! Please!) or get that Pulsar they put on their dreadnought and get it out of the way. I think ... wait, you did what again?!



(Sssssputter!) Hyper-X Rocketss?! When there were ssuch incredible choisces available in other fields?! Are you crazy?! Why didn't you wait for my orders?! And WHY ARE YOU STICKING YOUR TONGUE OUT AT ME?! I remember now! You did thiss lasst time! You're doing thiss on purpose! Why, I'll ... I'll...

Really? You think I can build a new bomber design with those things? Like with two actual AMBs, and a Mark-5 computer and our besst maneuverability? Let'ss have a look!

...

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute! It doesn't matter what designs I can build with that Human fleet! (Ssssssigh) Well, back to building sstarsship partss at Beta Cygni....


2436: Why, hello again, Special Agent Ssecretname! What kind of a name is that, anyway? I've figured out who you are now, you unsspeakable traitor! Don't even tell me: We had a choice of variouss fields, and you jusst stole their sstupid Ion Cannons. Is that it? Yessss, I thought sso, Exs-Gunsslinger Maniac! Did you think you could fool me? And now, for your inssolensce, I'll ... What? The Meklar or Silicoids? What do you mean? We can frame them?! Oh, goody! I'll ... wait! They're both at war with the Humans anyway! Why would we bother framing? You jusst get out of there sso they won't sstep up counter-sspy effortss and catch you! You hear me? Good! Farewell, then! ... ... Waiiiiiiit.


2437: Sso you dare to appear on my viewscreen again, Exs-Gunsslinger Maniac?! What have you sstolen thiss time? Class III sshields? I ssee. I ssupose it was worth the chance of getting Class Vs and obviating the need for our leasst advanced ressearch project ... either now or soon enough. And at leasst it'ss not more sstupid weapons technology. I've thought about it, though, and I think it'ss ssafe to let bygones be bygones. You've already sstolen all the techss you ssaid I sshould trade for, sso you can't be angry about that anymore. And did a pretty good job, for that matter. And ssinsce it was our top-ssecret line, I can forgive you for ssticking your tongue out at me. Good thing these converssations will never be publisshed by ssomebody for everyone in the galaxy and ssome Sol 3 games forum to read! Anyway, I jusst got another report, and it'ss a beauty!



Fusion Beams hit at just (ssupposedly) 5% - and we can ressearch a Megabolt Cannon nexst! Thiss makes me very, very happy.


2438: I need to ssend some sspies to hide among the bugs again. I keep sswitching my sspy sspending around each year to keep our reportss as nearly up-to-date as I can. Information is power ... if you know how to use it, at leasst.


2439: I'm sstarting to lose faith in my sscientisstss. Maybe they're disssapointed in me for failing to sstart up funding for Adanced Soil or Megaboltss? But I could hardly afford any new programs on top of the old ones, really. They keep claiming Consstruction is ready to come in - and now Propulssion too - but sso far ... nothing. Even sso, I've done ssuch a good job with thiss empire, there's no way I'll lose my third-term election.

2440: .....
.....

I can't believe the people are so flighty. Lose ssixs sstupid factories to "unknown" ssabotage (Ha! Humans!) down on Esper, and ssuddenly there are all these votess against me. The voting was sso close, I almosst demanded a recount, but that wouldn't exactly make me popular with anybody. Gunsslinger Catwalk III it is then. I'm retiring. Maybe I can work with Maniac in the esspionage department - heeheehee.

So in the end, I didn't build any bombers at all! I do have a design in mind for one though - and yes, I said one!



This monster, along with its sister ship, the Blasster3.0 (a fleet-buster ship with 15 Fusion Beams and another Ion Cannon in lieu of this dread's AMBs) is already designed, but not yet built. I might have built them already if this were a single-player game, but I wanted to leave the choice to you, and part of me wants to wait for new tech, since both Construction and Fusion Drives are in the percentages now (and Computers are close). If you do wait though, be aware that Beta Ceti and Dolz are both VERY close to finishing a GiantWasste placeholder. You'll have to redesign the placeholder (to make it more expensive) each time ANY new tech comes in, or risk having it built in the next interturn. (Even if the game doesn't think it'll be finished, it might be; the game doesn't update build costs for old ships until the beginning of the interturn, though new ship designs have the correct costs right away.)

I left you over a thousand BC in reserves, with Beta Ceti already doubled for this turn (I dumped in twice as much as it needed in 2429, having temporarily forgotten that I was going to hand over the save in 2430) - I would recommend feeding Maalor and/or Jinga if you're not building a fleet, but that's your call, obviously. Here's a look at the empire overall:



Notice that everywhere except our still-developing worlds (and Ultra-Poor Kailis) has at least one missile base, while our most-forward stars and Rich worlds have planetary shields already. Tau Cygni has most of a shield completed as well, but with no immediate threats, I've been putting research first everywhere else for the time being. Jinga has started its Atmospheric Terraforming, but still has a ways to go. Maalor finished its terraforming out of sheer frustration with a slider that wouldn't cut down to "CLEAN" - and as a result, its population is still well ahead of its factories - but it's making up for that rapidly. (Esper is the place that lost 6 facs to sabotage in my final interturn.)

I've made NO investment so far in Adanced Soil or Megabolts. You can decide when and how much to seed them.

All our spy reports are up to date; we just lost our Klackon spy in the 2328-9 interturn. Here's an example - and proof that the Meks are still very scary:



They're also likely to be our election opposition in 2450 (your final interturn). Yes, I said ours.



This is one reason to go after the Humans right away: Reduce their voting power against us! The Humans will certainly vote for the Meks in spite of being at war with them, because we're at war with them and the player! The Bulrathi will probably vote for us in spite of being allied to someone at war with us, because they haven't met us yet and they're at war with the robots. The 'Coids and Klacks will both vote for the 'Bots unless their alliances are broken between now and then.

Or, of course, population numbers might change drastically between now and then.

Finally: How'd I do on my goals?
1) Almost; Maalor's still short of factories, and Jinga still lacks 13 points of terraforming (and about 3 facs) but that's 100% fine considering the way events during the turns themselves forced changes in my priorities.
2) Very much so.
3) Class 5 Shields?! I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that bit. But II6 and Advanced Scanner are both now in percentages, and Fusion Beam is already in, so I'm counting this as a success.
4) Done.
5) Done, Done, Done, Done...
6) ...and Done!

Good luck, Catwalk - the save is attached!

Catwalk said:

Sounds good How about a Medium bomber? At speed 4, it can dodge missiles easily. We could use 2 or 3 different designs and keep the bases from hitting us.

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That was the original plan. The problem is, they've got this dreadnought sitting in orbit with lots of beams and an Energy Pulsar - and they can't outrun it, as it has a combat move of 3! (Plus they have a bunch of other ships to run interference for it and the missiles.) Their fleet never left Sol (rather getting reinforced there) throughout my turns. I like the Huge designs better at this point.

ToddMarshall said:

Seeing that we've acquired my entire laundry list I think we're in good shape for the foreseeable future. I really thought we were in a lot of trouble at the beginning, but it looks really good now.

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Still lots of ways for things to go wrong - starting with the vote in 2450 - so I wouldn't get too cocky yet, but yeah, this is definitely starting to look like a winnable game.

RE: next SG. If we play the next one on the patch, I think we should do something a bit more vanilia for the first patch game. Maybe Impossible with one of the 4 worst races with maybe just one restriction. The way the AI expands so much better, Impossible w/o variants is pretty dern hard on the patch as is. After that, we could look into more variants.

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I'm on board for this - but a spectacular loss with a variant wouldn't be too bad either if we wind up winning the current game!

Not sure about atmospheric to the Klackons, but otherwise looks good.

That energy pulsar design is really annoying. I think we'll need 2 of those bomber dreads to be safe in doing it in 1 run.

I'm really worried about the next vote. Are we allowed to grow pop on our planets or not. If we are, we should make sure we get Adv scanner, then Invade the Human worlds with most of our planets right before the vote to get our pop down enough to not be nominated.

GOT IT and looking forward to playing.

Off to work, commenting later.

How about Large w/Fusion Beam or Medium w/Hyper-X (or a mix) to take out their fleet while using 3 bomber designs to confuse missiles? I agree with making it very high priority to take out the pesky humans in a hurry.