SGOTM 13 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Alright Kossin, I can take the set 
The issue to be debated is the location of city 4.
Settling the desert hill on the stone island yields the better return, I believe.
I've made another test settling city4 there and city5 on the Copper. We can then settle city 5 on the copper on T112, which is early enough for military production.
Result : army ready to be shipped on T136. That's quite the same date as copper first but the eastern cities are better developped.
A thing we could do in any case, regarding the military build up, is to send a few galleys in advance to take Moscow's cultural defenses down.
Hence the 2 screenshots below :
Soooo...
Some voting issues :
- Location of city 4 : my vote is Desert hill.
- Location of city 5 : my vote is Copper (that's for the next set).
- First build in city 4 : my vote is Monument.
I'll write up a plan shortly
The issue to be debated is the location of city 4.
Settling the desert hill on the stone island yields the better return, I believe.
I've made another test settling city4 there and city5 on the Copper. We can then settle city 5 on the copper on T112, which is early enough for military production.
Result : army ready to be shipped on T136. That's quite the same date as copper first but the eastern cities are better developped.
A thing we could do in any case, regarding the military build up, is to send a few galleys in advance to take Moscow's cultural defenses down.
Hence the 2 screenshots below :
Spoiler :
Soooo...
Some voting issues :
- Location of city 4 : my vote is Desert hill.
- Location of city 5 : my vote is Copper (that's for the next set).
- First build in city 4 : my vote is Monument.
I'll write up a plan shortly
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Other voting issue :
- Do we do anything about Open Borders ?
Compromise suggested we close borders with Catherine... Pro : she may get less traderoutes (GLH) ; Cons : we certainly can't scout her.
- Our galley has 13 spare moves (from T102 to T108) : where do we scout ? I would say towards the 2 clams site in the NE (link to post with pics).
- Do we do anything about Open Borders ?
Compromise suggested we close borders with Catherine... Pro : she may get less traderoutes (GLH) ; Cons : we certainly can't scout her.
- Our galley has 13 spare moves (from T102 to T108) : where do we scout ? I would say towards the 2 clams site in the NE (link to post with pics).
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Duckweed :
If we whip the settler on T105, we get like no overflow into the Oracle and we're forced to invest a chop into it to complete it in time.
The good points are :
- Whip anger fades 3 turns earlier (that may matter).
- 1 turn earlier city 5 (does it matter ? I don't think so ; 1 turn earlier because we load the settler on the galley 2S1W of Paris instead of 2SE : longer travel time).
If we whip the settler on T106, then we complete the Oracle on T107... Too early.
If we whip the settler on T108, then we get 26H from Oracle overflow (strangely, that amount doesn't seem to change if we chop the forest on T107 instead of cottaging - I don't get it EDIT : got it : Hammers don't go to Paris but to Lyons ; that chop is worth 20H, by the way, which can be cool to get the 6th galley earlier).
--> Amounts to : 4F+26H in Paris vs 1 turn earlier city5 and 3 turns less of whip anger.
--> I'm not so enthusiastic about the T105 whip unless we give some high value to the 3 turns less of whip anger.
If we use the worker to pre-chop,
In my testruns, I had the worker cottage 1SW of city 4 and 1S of city 5.
Those tiles don't give a very good return compared to coasts. At least short term.
City 5 may use a cottage if it doesn't have multiple seafood.
I get the logic, though : cottaging is kinda worthless, here.
If we pre-chop, the worker will be stuck on a 2 tiles island until a galley fetches him again. The return doesn't seem very high either...
If we don't cottage but work coasts, then I guess LH > Granary, at least for city 5. If we do cottage, I'm unsure.
Others : good points
(OB with Cathy ; WB sent to clams ; research 0% for 2 turns)
If we whip the settler on T105, we get like no overflow into the Oracle and we're forced to invest a chop into it to complete it in time.
The good points are :
- Whip anger fades 3 turns earlier (that may matter).
- 1 turn earlier city 5 (does it matter ? I don't think so ; 1 turn earlier because we load the settler on the galley 2S1W of Paris instead of 2SE : longer travel time).
If we whip the settler on T106, then we complete the Oracle on T107... Too early.
If we whip the settler on T108, then we get 26H from Oracle overflow (strangely, that amount doesn't seem to change if we chop the forest on T107 instead of cottaging - I don't get it EDIT : got it : Hammers don't go to Paris but to Lyons ; that chop is worth 20H, by the way, which can be cool to get the 6th galley earlier).
--> Amounts to : 4F+26H in Paris vs 1 turn earlier city5 and 3 turns less of whip anger.
--> I'm not so enthusiastic about the T105 whip unless we give some high value to the 3 turns less of whip anger.
If we use the worker to pre-chop,
In my testruns, I had the worker cottage 1SW of city 4 and 1S of city 5.
Those tiles don't give a very good return compared to coasts. At least short term.
City 5 may use a cottage if it doesn't have multiple seafood.
I get the logic, though : cottaging is kinda worthless, here.
If we pre-chop, the worker will be stuck on a 2 tiles island until a galley fetches him again. The return doesn't seem very high either...
If we don't cottage but work coasts, then I guess LH > Granary, at least for city 5. If we do cottage, I'm unsure.
Others : good points
(OB with Cathy ; WB sent to clams ; research 0% for 2 turns)
Whip the settler on T105 enable the founding of 5th city on T110, so that's 2 turns earlier. With currency, it's still a gain even on commerce.
On the contrary, what's the good if whipped on T108?
Are you sure?
Cottaging is out of my consideration in this game. Comparing to coastal tile, cottage has 1 less commerce in the 1st 15 turn, then even in the next 30 turns and needs another 15 turns to pay the shortage in the 1st 15 turns, so working a cottage requires 60 turns to become better than a coastal tile. Do we need research at that time? Worker is better to do pre-chop of forests and pre-road.
Edit: I agree with your worker move as it's better to work on 2F1C tile than 1F2C tile before the border pop in 4th city.
On the contrary, what's the good if whipped on T108?
Are you sure?
Cottaging is out of my consideration in this game. Comparing to coastal tile, cottage has 1 less commerce in the 1st 15 turn, then even in the next 30 turns and needs another 15 turns to pay the shortage in the 1st 15 turns, so working a cottage requires 60 turns to become better than a coastal tile. Do we need research at that time? Worker is better to do pre-chop of forests and pre-road.
Edit: I agree with your worker move as it's better to work on 2F1C tile than 1F2C tile before the border pop in 4th city.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Here's how I understand the galley's movements :
Spoiler :
Which leads to a settling on T111 vs T112.
Regarding hammer overflow after the Oracle is complete, I am sure we get 26H if we whip on T108. The +4F come from working the corn instead of the mine on T109... Although... whipping earlier means we regrow earlier as well...
Maybe I was wrong regarding the food !I am not sure, however, of the overflow we get if we whip on T105. It is less than a grassland mine. This is for sure.
So, hammer wise we come ahead by 20+H with a T108 whip.
I'll retry your micro for the Oracle
And then... to make things a little more complicated, there is the Currency vs Construction issue
I am kinda ruling out Currency if we want to start a war asap.
See post 522 : We can send 4 galleys on T126 and 2 more on T136 ; or send 6 galleys on T136 (even T131-5, if we put a chop into Lyons).
I don't think there is a way we get 8 units + 4 galleys before T130 if we Oracle Currency.
@ Worker moves :
Errr... Cottages are useless, I agree, although grassland is valuable before we have a Lighthouse, I agree as well.
Maybe whipping LH at size 2 and then starting on Granaries is what we should do for cities 4&5 ? I'll inquire what the better option is, food wise.
Getting the chop into Lyons can come in very handy to complete the last galley. Lyons produces 4H/turn so it should gain us 5 turns... And maybe Paris + Orleans can follow that schedule. Not sure for this.
@galley move
Go through southern route, which is clear in the real save. T110 city 5 for sure.
@Oracle freebie
Construction should be completed in 13 turns maximum with currency, with more foreign trade routes and some cash demand and resource trade, could be faster. Should not be a problem to produce 5 cats before T130.
@ Paris build
You neglect the pop size. 1 pop = 45H. Paris is size 5 on T110 if whipped on T105.
@ City build
I'm not very sure whether Granary or LH come 1st, need test though.
Go through southern route, which is clear in the real save. T110 city 5 for sure.
@Oracle freebie
Construction should be completed in 13 turns maximum with currency, with more foreign trade routes and some cash demand and resource trade, could be faster. Should not be a problem to produce 5 cats before T130.
@ Paris build
You neglect the pop size. 1 pop = 45H. Paris is size 5 on T110 if whipped on T105.
@ City build
I'm not very sure whether Granary or LH come 1st, need test though.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
You've got me convinced
I slowly understand that whipping earlier can be better than maximizing whip overflow. Yet an example of micro-management being useless when one has the wrong objectives ^^
I still doubt about Currency. I wouldn't be surprised if you were right again, though.@Oracle freebie
Construction should be completed in 13 turns maximum with currency, with more foreign trade routes and some cash demand and resource trade, could be faster. Should not be a problem to produce 5 cats before T130.
@ City build
I'm not very sure whether Granary or LH come 1st, need test though.
Is it only a cute trick to 2pop whip an Axe, overflow into a Cat, then 2pop whip another Axe ? If it is, then you're certainly right !
I haven't run a test for the military build up after Oracling Currency. I guess I should do one.
City build : I'll Excel the results for city 4.
I'm afraid I won't do so for city 5 since I do not know where we will build the workboat (Paris if Oracle -> Currency, I suppose ; maybe city 4 if Oracle -> Construction... That's what I did), hence I do not know when the seafood will be improved, hence I do not know the food output.
Since Moscow's culture defense will be 60 when our stack arrives, I'd like to have 5 cats in stack so that it could remove 40 culture in the 1st turn and then 16 or 20 in the next turn. Hence we will have at least 2 cats available to attack in the next turn and guarantee that we can take Moscow in 2 turns.
Another reason that I don't favor the 4 galley rush is that we need at least 1 empty galley for possible barbarian galley. Better cautious than seeing the sunk of 2 land units.
In conclusion, we'd better have at least 6 galleys before sending our stack, that leaves plenty of time to produce cats. I think the build in gold city after warrior should be a galley.
I'm pretty sure now that LH before Granary is better, so NO COTTAGE. Send the worker to chop.
Regarding the WB for the Copper city, Lyons could built it in T111, right?
Another reason that I don't favor the 4 galley rush is that we need at least 1 empty galley for possible barbarian galley. Better cautious than seeing the sunk of 2 land units.
In conclusion, we'd better have at least 6 galleys before sending our stack, that leaves plenty of time to produce cats. I think the build in gold city after warrior should be a galley.
I'm pretty sure now that LH before Granary is better, so NO COTTAGE. Send the worker to chop.
Regarding the WB for the Copper city, Lyons could built it in T111, right?
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Fair point
I took the screenshot on T126 because I found it was very early and hoped the rest of the army would follow quicker than it did (T136).
T106, Fish is improved.
T121, we have a border pop (pigs worth 3F ; 2nd seafood worth 3F if LH)
T126, Pigs are improved.
Getting confused with maths as usual, I find that Granary first comes ahead by 1F on T140. I wouldn't trust myself on that matter, though
Lyons has about 40+ overflow from the Granary whip so I guess yes
Either T110 or T111.I had Rheims whip it but that is T118 at the earliest if we prioritize the Monument (whip available from T11). In any case, Lyons will be able to provide a WB much faster than Rheims.
I had it on Galley duty but it isn't the soundest option;
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
That's good to hear, Snaaty
If you run a test, using Duckweed's modified plan is the way to go (post 524)
Hmmm...
And let me ask this question again :
Is it only a cute trick to 2pop whip an Axe, overflow into a Cat, then 2pop whip another Axe ?
Do you happen to do this in solo play ? Is it efficient/inefficient under certain circumstances ?
If you run a test, using Duckweed's modified plan is the way to go (post 524)
Hmmm...
And let me ask this question again :
Is it only a cute trick to 2pop whip an Axe, overflow into a Cat, then 2pop whip another Axe ?
Do you happen to do this in solo play ? Is it efficient/inefficient under certain circumstances ?
@ bic:
yup, i would do the same regarding the army:
1. 2 pop whip of axe (1 turn of building it, max ov)
2. ov into cat
repeat 1, if cat is finished with ov, ov into next cat so we can keep 2pop whipping axes
(based on a bit of mp and a bit more sp experience, including deity aw
)
...
-> i´m strongly in favour of the oracle-construction pick, btw. but i have to have a look at the testgame myself and do a bit of simulating to voice a clear decision here (mainly depends WHEN we will have construction after picking currency and WHEN we start to go full army, using the whip+ov thingy)
yup, i would do the same regarding the army:
1. 2 pop whip of axe (1 turn of building it, max ov)
2. ov into cat
repeat 1, if cat is finished with ov, ov into next cat so we can keep 2pop whipping axes
(based on a bit of mp and a bit more sp experience, including deity aw
)...
-> i´m strongly in favour of the oracle-construction pick, btw
. but i have to have a look at the testgame myself and do a bit of simulating to voice a clear decision here (mainly depends WHEN we will have construction after picking currency and WHEN we start to go full army, using the whip+ov thingy)im working my way through city by city
...
i would do quite some things different. i start with the cities that are already done and will edit in the cities tested later:
1. gold city (orleans):
whipping the granary right now makes no sense due to food storage not beeing half full (it will be emty after growing, since it is empty now).
-> changes i would do:
switch to monument asap (t100), whip monument t102, ov into granary, granary done t103 with max. food stored for next growth (21 of 42), next build warrior for happy. the wb for the clams comes from marble/lyons
2. marble city (lyons):
same problem as with orleans. whipping the granary when growing to size 4 means having the food storage half full at t113. so whipping the granary t112 with food half full would do the same and we can build other stuff first having the same overall food.
my proposal:
switch to wb t100
whip wb t101 (goes to clam near gold city, will be there t104)
whip granary t112 (food half full, size 3, only 1pop whip)
...
reims:
plan seems good (monument - whip asap, lh - whip asap, gran 2popwhip t132)
...
capital
t100:whip settler
t101: oracle
t102:1 turn into next settler (growth needs to be slowed for 1 turn)
t103:back to oracle
t105:whip settler
t106:mine->corn (to grow back within 1 turn), ov into oracle
t109:corn->mine (to finish oracle t110)
we dont need to chop anything to finish the oracle in time. so our worker should use the turns to build a road towards the pigs. building a cottage somewhere also seems weird given our settings, so roading the pigs seems the best to do cause we will need them anyways.
...
we might send the worker later towards the copper for roading it (if we decide to settle 7 from the copper and not onto it, so we already have the road and only need to get rid of the jungle + mine the tile... ...but here i havent tested anything, just guessing, settling on the copper might be (way) better, but cant say without testing
...
testing for t110 done. sorry for the delay, but i really didnt have time earlier.
...
quick clicking towards t125:
bronze online when settling next to it and researching ironworking after picking construction from the oracle.
settling on bronze will get it online t113
...
i would like to postpone the decision where to settle this city exactly, up to the end of the next set (end of t109), since we neither need to decide now where to settle this city nor what to pick from the oracle. for deciding this we need to do lots of testing whats best to get our army out fastest...
...
i would do quite some things different. i start with the cities that are already done and will edit in the cities tested later:
1. gold city (orleans):
whipping the granary right now makes no sense due to food storage not beeing half full (it will be emty after growing, since it is empty now).
-> changes i would do:
switch to monument asap (t100), whip monument t102, ov into granary, granary done t103 with max. food stored for next growth (21 of 42), next build warrior for happy. the wb for the clams comes from marble/lyons
2. marble city (lyons):
same problem as with orleans. whipping the granary when growing to size 4 means having the food storage half full at t113. so whipping the granary t112 with food half full would do the same and we can build other stuff first having the same overall food.
my proposal:
switch to wb t100
whip wb t101 (goes to clam near gold city, will be there t104)
whip granary t112 (food half full, size 3, only 1pop whip)
...
reims:
plan seems good (monument - whip asap, lh - whip asap, gran 2popwhip t132)
...
capital
t100:whip settler
t101: oracle
t102:1 turn into next settler (growth needs to be slowed for 1 turn)
t103:back to oracle
t105:whip settler
t106:mine->corn (to grow back within 1 turn), ov into oracle
t109:corn->mine (to finish oracle t110)
we dont need to chop anything to finish the oracle in time. so our worker should use the turns to build a road towards the pigs. building a cottage somewhere also seems weird given our settings, so roading the pigs seems the best to do cause we will need them anyways.
...
we might send the worker later towards the copper for roading it (if we decide to settle 7 from the copper and not onto it, so we already have the road and only need to get rid of the jungle + mine the tile... ...but here i havent tested anything, just guessing, settling on the copper might be (way) better, but cant say without testing
...
testing for t110 done
. sorry for the delay, but i really didnt have time earlier....
quick clicking towards t125:
bronze online when settling next to it and researching ironworking after picking construction from the oracle.
settling on bronze will get it online t113
...
i would like to postpone the decision where to settle this city exactly, up to the end of the next set (end of t109), since we neither need to decide now where to settle this city nor what to pick from the oracle. for deciding this we need to do lots of testing whats best to get our army out fastest...
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Nice testing, Snaaty
I'm really tired tonight so I'll look into the details tomorrow...
@ Granaries in Orleans and Lyons :
Maybe we can afford to wait, yes. Especially if we insert a Monument.
I just hope the Workboat improves the Clams near Orleans in time.
Duckweed's argument for whipping now in Orleans relied on :
1- the need for the WB ;
2- whip anger fading earlier.
Regarding Lyons...
If we whip on T109, the next build could be a workboat sent to city5.
Then again, I'm too tired to check the timing right now. What I know is that the hammer overflow is very nice on T109 and that speed matters.
Maybe your way has it all I hope so 
Oh : And I just realized I messed up my numbers again when comparing LH to Granary in Rheims... Border pop takes 15 culture on Epic speed, aaaarggh !!
I think we all agree LH first is best, though Especially true if we send another WB to improve the second seafood (builder habits... we should prolly wait for the war preps to be done to do so).
I'm really tired tonight so I'll look into the details tomorrow...
@ Granaries in Orleans and Lyons :
Maybe we can afford to wait, yes. Especially if we insert a Monument.
I just hope the Workboat improves the Clams near Orleans in time.
Duckweed's argument for whipping now in Orleans relied on :
1- the need for the WB ;
2- whip anger fading earlier.
Regarding Lyons...
If we whip on T109, the next build could be a workboat sent to city5.
Then again, I'm too tired to check the timing right now. What I know is that the hammer overflow is very nice on T109 and that speed matters.
Maybe your way has it all
I hope so Oh : And I just realized I messed up my numbers again when comparing LH to Granary in Rheims... Border pop takes 15 culture on Epic speed, aaaarggh !!
I think we all agree LH first is best, though
Especially true if we send another WB to improve the second seafood (builder habits... we should prolly wait for the war preps to be done to do so).
srad
King
Sorry guys for not showing up for so long. Mainly I have a lack of motivation (and time but I guess if I really want I would find some) to play Civ at all.
I don't want to drop out totally and maybe in a few weeks the interest is back...
Sorry!
I don't want to drop out totally and maybe in a few weeks the interest is back...
Sorry!
This game has been stuck for too long time, honestly I start to lose interest when there's no progress. Play as you like, BIC, you have my green light.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
I'll consider the micro for those 2 cities together. Getting the right timing for the Granary whips is indeed interesting.
What are the stakes ?
- When do we improve seafood ? There are 2 seafoods to be considered :
The clams near Orleans (your proposition has the WB on the clams on T104 but they're improved T105, against T104 in current plan).
And the fish near the Copper city. We could conveniently get a WB from Lyons with a 2pop whip of the Monument. The 1pop whip on T112 would delay the time we can improve that fish as well.
- Monument... you raise the issue. It is worth nothing for 15 turns (actually a net commerce loss, time to regrow). Then it gives Orleans +1F/turn (at size 4+) and +1happy. If our benchmark for the military build up is T140, then if we whip the Monument before T110, it will allow 2 whips (or is that logic flawed ?) - whipping earlier being better.
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