SGOTM 13 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
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BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Haha Kossin ^^
I'd do my best but Duckweed is watching me...
testgame is updated.
Food and hammers are exact.
We have 2gpt more of maintenance in the testgame (not sure why... inflation ?).
And... that is it. Exploring workboats are still on auto explore.
I'd do my best but Duckweed is watching me...
testgame is updated.
Food and hammers are exact.
We have 2gpt more of maintenance in the testgame (not sure why... inflation ?).
And... that is it. Exploring workboats are still on auto explore.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Here's my first draft :
Tech : Metal Casting.
T124 : Paris and Orleans : Axeman
T125 : Paris and Orleans : Catapult. Lyons : whips Galley
T126 : Paris and Orleans : whip Catapult.
T127 : Paris : Axeman (complete). Orleans : Catapult.
T128 : Paris : Axeman. Orleans : Whips Catapult.
T129 : Paris : Catapult.
T130 : Orleans : Catapult.
T132 : Paris : whips Catapult. Lyons : whips Galley.
T133 : Paris : Axeman
T134 : Paris : Settler. Lyons : Whips Galley.
1 galley is lacking. The end result is 5 axes, 5 cats and 5 galleys.
Whip anger is awful... I guess I whip too soon.
(61 turns of unhappiness in Paris : 1 unhappy at size 4
56 turns of unhappiness in Orleans : 1 unhappy at size 4)
I'll try to delay the whips to gain some more production
ps : not much happens in Rheims and Tours. The Granary in Rheims can be whipped on T134.
Worker roads the pigs, roads 1 desert tile, then improves the pigs. If we get some more culture, it improves the pigs earlier.
Tech : Metal Casting.
T124 : Paris and Orleans : Axeman
T125 : Paris and Orleans : Catapult. Lyons : whips Galley
T126 : Paris and Orleans : whip Catapult.
T127 : Paris : Axeman (complete). Orleans : Catapult.
T128 : Paris : Axeman. Orleans : Whips Catapult.
T129 : Paris : Catapult.
T130 : Orleans : Catapult.
T132 : Paris : whips Catapult. Lyons : whips Galley.
T133 : Paris : Axeman
T134 : Paris : Settler. Lyons : Whips Galley.
1 galley is lacking. The end result is 5 axes, 5 cats and 5 galleys.
Whip anger is awful... I guess I whip too soon.
(61 turns of unhappiness in Paris : 1 unhappy at size 4
56 turns of unhappiness in Orleans : 1 unhappy at size 4)
I'll try to delay the whips to gain some more production
ps : not much happens in Rheims and Tours. The Granary in Rheims can be whipped on T134.
Worker roads the pigs, roads 1 desert tile, then improves the pigs. If we get some more culture, it improves the pigs earlier.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
A bit better...
Same unit count.
Paris is size 3 and will grow to 4 on T135 when whip anger fades.
Orleans only has 41 turns of whip anger so it is happy at size 4.
T124 : Paris and Orleans : Axeman. Paris hires 1 citizen. Orleans hires 2 citizens (questionable, yes). Lyons whips Galley.
T125 : Lyons starts another galley.
T126 : Paris starts a Catapult.
T127 : Paris Whips cat (works 2 mines). Orleans starts Catapult (works 3F2C).
T128 : Paris starts Axe. Orleans whips Cat.
T129 : Orleans starts Cat. Lyons whips Galley.
T130 : Paris starts Cat. Orleans starts Axe.
T131 : Paris whips Cat (works 2 mines, size3). Orleans starts Axe.
T132 : Lyons whips Galley. Orleans whips Axeman/Cat (both can be 2pop whipped with 48/49 overflow ... maybe the 6th galley should come from Orleans).
Paris is done building units and can grow to 4 in 3 turns : builds ???
T133 : Orleans overflows into last unit.
T134 : Paris works 2 seafood.
Army is assembled 2S1E of Orleans (all galleys having 3 available moves).
1 galley still lacking...
EDIT : we can get that galley with the following adjustment :
T129 : Orleans starts Galley (29H, iirc)
T130 : Orleans completes Axeman
T131 : Orleans starts Axeman
T132 : Orleans whips Galley
T133 : Orleans overflows into Catapult
T134 : Orleans whips Axeman.
T135 : Army ready to ship and assembled 2S1W of Orleans.
Same unit count.
Paris is size 3 and will grow to 4 on T135 when whip anger fades.
Orleans only has 41 turns of whip anger so it is happy at size 4.
T124 : Paris and Orleans : Axeman. Paris hires 1 citizen. Orleans hires 2 citizens (questionable, yes). Lyons whips Galley.
T125 : Lyons starts another galley.
T126 : Paris starts a Catapult.
T127 : Paris Whips cat (works 2 mines). Orleans starts Catapult (works 3F2C).
T128 : Paris starts Axe. Orleans whips Cat.
T129 : Orleans starts Cat. Lyons whips Galley.
T130 : Paris starts Cat. Orleans starts Axe.
T131 : Paris whips Cat (works 2 mines, size3). Orleans starts Axe.
T132 : Lyons whips Galley. Orleans whips Axeman/Cat (both can be 2pop whipped with 48/49 overflow ... maybe the 6th galley should come from Orleans).
Paris is done building units and can grow to 4 in 3 turns : builds ???
T133 : Orleans overflows into last unit.
T134 : Paris works 2 seafood.
Army is assembled 2S1E of Orleans (all galleys having 3 available moves).
1 galley still lacking...
EDIT : we can get that galley with the following adjustment :
T129 : Orleans starts Galley (29H, iirc)
T130 : Orleans completes Axeman
T131 : Orleans starts Axeman
T132 : Orleans whips Galley
T133 : Orleans overflows into Catapult
T134 : Orleans whips Axeman.
T135 : Army ready to ship and assembled 2S1W of Orleans.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
After several other attempts, I can't seem to do better than the edited above post.
(T135 departure).
So much for the micro.
General lines :
- What tech do we want ? My understanding is that Duckweed and Snaaty, you want Metal Casting. I've lost us a galley already so I won't complain. Would Code of Laws be next ? City maintenance will rise very fast once we start invading the Dutch...
- AI relationships : do we give in any kind of demands ? Such as... close borders with Cathy ? Give a minor tech ?
Polytheism will be sold this turn. Should we then sell it "at a discount" ? From 30g ? Or stick to 40-50g ?
Pleased AI = demand for gold. How about gpt ?
The deal with Cathy (Marble) can be cancelled from T128 so, at that point, we may get something else (hopefully a happy resource).
- What else should we consider ?
Of the two scouting workboats, one tries to come back home using the northern route. The other tries to find Isabella's lands.
- Stopping the turnset ?
If another classical era tech (Monarchy) becomes available ?
If we get our hands on a happy resource ?
(T135 departure).
So much for the micro.
General lines :
- What tech do we want ? My understanding is that Duckweed and Snaaty, you want Metal Casting. I've lost us a galley already so I won't complain. Would Code of Laws be next ? City maintenance will rise very fast once we start invading the Dutch...
- AI relationships : do we give in any kind of demands ? Such as... close borders with Cathy ? Give a minor tech ?
Polytheism will be sold this turn. Should we then sell it "at a discount" ? From 30g ? Or stick to 40-50g ?
Pleased AI = demand for gold. How about gpt ?
The deal with Cathy (Marble) can be cancelled from T128 so, at that point, we may get something else (hopefully a happy resource).
- What else should we consider ?
Of the two scouting workboats, one tries to come back home using the northern route. The other tries to find Isabella's lands.
- Stopping the turnset ?
If another classical era tech (Monarchy) becomes available ?
If we get our hands on a happy resource ?
I had seen enough of those stinky yellow cloud in the last game, so no nuke! If you want to produce some fancy troop, I'd be happy to see some 9 movement transports and March Marines, that will surely fresh my eyes and help to speed the conquering.
Will update my comments on the plan tonight, T134 SOD sailing is still doable. 2 Things could change the plan.
1. Good one -- you see Monarchy!
2. Bad thing -- you lose more galley.
@ The plan
T124 -- Lyons (whip Galley)
T125 -- Lyons (2 Galleys), Paris (cat), Orleans(cat)
T126 -- Paris and Orleans whip cats
T127 --
T128 -- Paris and Orleans starts new cat
T129 -- Paris(Galley), Orleans (whip cat), Lyons(whip galley)
T130 -- Paris(whip Galley)
T131 -- Paris(Clam to hill), Orleans (start 3rd cat), Lyons (whip Galley)
T132 -- Paris(Settler AUTO citizen), Orleans(whip Cat), Lyons (Warrior or Galley), Tour(Warrior)
T133 -- Tours(whip warrior)
One thing needs test -- Which galley in a stack will be picked for defense against barbarian galley? Randomly, number dependent, or the empty galley?
BTW, how's your attempt on BOTM40?
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
I sure hope I won't lose us another galley 
- Why would you whip a warrior in Tours ? Will it allow a Granary whip at size 2 ? Asking this... I realize it is the case... Neat trick ! It can be done 2 turns later to gain some commerce.
- Your build orders from T127 to T130 make a lot of sense
I keep on doing some cute and inefficient shuffling when trying to micromanage... Most probably because I do not have a clear enough view of what each city is meant to produce. At least partly because of that.
- Which galley is selected as defender ? I have no clue...
I assumed it was randomly picked but maybe it isn't... I thought we could just send 1 galley a turn ahead of the others so it could attract the barbs.
There can be some trouble with this, though, if a barb galley comes at us from the rear. There are some small islands constellations where it would be possible.
@BOTM 40 :
As a matter of fact, I dislike water maps and got bored with it, hahaha !
This SG, I do not really like the map either but teamgame is fun.
I made a big blunder, trading a monopoly tech with a wonder associated and, therefore... lost that wonder to my trade partner... I also carelessly wasted a food resource on our starting island. Apart from that, things are/were going well. I'm on par with the AIs tech wise and I could settle overseas. My cities could be better developped, though.
I'll try to post a report in the official thread.
Did you finish your game ?
- Why would you whip a warrior in Tours ? Will it allow a Granary whip at size 2 ? Asking this... I realize it is the case... Neat trick ! It can be done 2 turns later to gain some commerce.
- Your build orders from T127 to T130 make a lot of sense
I keep on doing some cute and inefficient shuffling when trying to micromanage... Most probably because I do not have a clear enough view of what each city is meant to produce. At least partly because of that.
- Which galley is selected as defender ? I have no clue...
I assumed it was randomly picked but maybe it isn't... I thought we could just send 1 galley a turn ahead of the others so it could attract the barbs.
There can be some trouble with this, though, if a barb galley comes at us from the rear. There are some small islands constellations where it would be possible.
@BOTM 40 :
As a matter of fact, I dislike water maps and got bored with it, hahaha !
This SG, I do not really like the map either but teamgame is fun.
I made a big blunder, trading a monopoly tech with a wonder associated and, therefore... lost that wonder to my trade partner... I also carelessly wasted a food resource on our starting island. Apart from that, things are/were going well. I'm on par with the AIs tech wise and I could settle overseas. My cities could be better developped, though.
I'll try to post a report in the official thread.
Did you finish your game ?
Compromise
Emperor
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I did some worldbuilder tests. It looks like the empty galley is targeted even if it is damaged. I did this by adding barb galleys one by one near a stack. After one of our galleys was sunk, I deleted one or two units off each galley (and named it so I could see which one it was....)
And if one galley has one unit and the rest have two units, the galley with only one unit is targeted *unless* it is damaged. If a damaged galley has one unit on it, another galley with two units will suffer the attack.
Great turnset plan, by the way. Love the whip-a-warrior to whip-a-granary-sooner technique!
@Compromise
Very thorough tests. The defense order programmed makes sense, so group empty galley in the stack is the way to go. There's 1 galley 1 tile behind the stack, we'll see whether it's possible to let the major stack delay 1 movement to wait for it without delaying the landing. If not, we have to let it follow the major stack, then all cats should be in the major stack.
The warrior whip trick has some disadvantages, besides the loss of commerce and 3 OF hammers, it adds 1 more whip anger. That's why I did not use it in Pig city. Considering that we will possibly get Monarchy this round (in 10 turns) or next round (in another 15 turns), happiness won't be a problem then.
@BIC
Yes, delaying the start (NOT whip, the maximum OF is 22H) of warrior for 1 turn to time the whip of granary makes sense.
A couple things needs your attention.
1. I realized that I forgot to use the WB CFB in the Pig city. The safe way to avoid such thing is to press space bar to skip it instead of putting it to sleep.
2. Don't include Hunting in the Polytheism trade, we need to produce quite a few warriors for happiness after the buildup of offensive stack.
On BOTM40
One of the reason why I played it is to practice domination in water map. I wrote a report in the official thread.
Very thorough tests. The defense order programmed makes sense, so group empty galley in the stack is the way to go. There's 1 galley 1 tile behind the stack, we'll see whether it's possible to let the major stack delay 1 movement to wait for it without delaying the landing. If not, we have to let it follow the major stack, then all cats should be in the major stack.
The warrior whip trick has some disadvantages, besides the loss of commerce and 3 OF hammers, it adds 1 more whip anger. That's why I did not use it in Pig city. Considering that we will possibly get Monarchy this round (in 10 turns) or next round (in another 15 turns), happiness won't be a problem then.
@BIC
Yes, delaying the start (NOT whip, the maximum OF is 22H) of warrior for 1 turn to time the whip of granary makes sense.
A couple things needs your attention.
1. I realized that I forgot to use the WB CFB in the Pig city. The safe way to avoid such thing is to press space bar to skip it instead of putting it to sleep.
2. Don't include Hunting in the Polytheism trade, we need to produce quite a few warriors for happiness after the buildup of offensive stack.
On BOTM40
One of the reason why I played it is to practice domination in water map. I wrote a report in the official thread.
Compromise
Emperor
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Thanks for the thoughts, Duckweed. Monarchy would certainly be a huge help if we could get it soon from an AI. At this point, if Cathy got it, we'd still be able to trade for it without delaying the taking of Moscow, right?
Another thing I noticed while doing the barb galley defense tests: I first put two barb galleys near each other so I didn't have to enter worldbuilder so frequently. They moved into a group together and then went away from my stack. So the first galley to move preferred to go toward its fellow barb than attack a fully loaded stack of my galleys. Weird.
Another thing I noticed while doing the barb galley defense tests: I first put two barb galleys near each other so I didn't have to enter worldbuilder so frequently. They moved into a group together and then went away from my stack. So the first galley to move preferred to go toward its fellow barb than attack a fully loaded stack of my galleys. Weird.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
@ Galleys : Nice tests, Compromise !
And Tours... Tours doesn't have enough food for whip anger to really matter, I think. That's about the same as Lyons.
2. I did think about that as well when we first traded Maths. I completely agree.
@ Snaaty :
What do you think of the plan ?
Could you go through it ?
I've had a very demanding day so I wasn't available and I'm now too tired to play tonight. I hope we'll be ready tomorrow
Rheims also has enough food to grow to 4 quick enough
And Tours... Tours doesn't have enough food for whip anger to really matter, I think. That's about the same as Lyons.
1. Right, the official save has to be handled that way.
2. I did think about that as well when we first traded Maths. I completely agree.
@ Snaaty :
What do you think of the plan ?
Could you go through it ?
I've had a very demanding day so I wasn't available and I'm now too tired to play tonight. I hope we'll be ready tomorrow
. i will try to find some time tonight, so you have some additional comments for playing tomorrow...im in favour of duckweeds mm (his last save to 650 BC)
...
some minor stuff:
if you keep paris at size 3 untill 135, as in your try, we avoid the
there. downside is loosing some more commerce from working the clams, so not sure if that would be better... ...i guess i still would delay growth...
so duckweeds mm for whipping, but with the growth in paris slowed as you did in your try
gogo
...
some minor stuff:
if you keep paris at size 3 untill 135, as in your try, we avoid the
there. downside is loosing some more commerce from working the clams, so not sure if that would be better... ...i guess i still would delay growth...so duckweeds mm for whipping, but with the growth in paris slowed as you did in your try
gogo
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Played and stopped at T129.
I risked another fight against the same barb galley to protect our seafood (1.4 strength + combat promo) and we lost when we had 89% winning odds... I had stacked 2 galleys, so the barb galley is now gone.
Cathy has had Monarchy this turn and will trade it for Currency (didn't check for Construction but... do we even consider that trade ?).
We refused a demand from Joao for Construction.
Made a deal with Ragnar : clam for 1gpt.
In other news, we finally found Isabella. I scouted a bit inside her territory but our workboat could go back now.
All else went as planned... Except we're yet another galley short
Monarchy is a good news, though : we get a free whip if we choose to revolt. Should we revolt asap ?
Screenies :
Official log :
So... yeah... No galley... Sorry
I've been hosting a friend since 2 days and until thursday night, so I won't be available today and tomorrow.
I can take part in the discussions, but don't expect me to play the end of this set before friday
Duckweed, if you can/want to take it, please do ! I know you worry we're getting behind schedule.
I risked another fight against the same barb galley to protect our seafood (1.4 strength + combat promo) and we lost when we had 89% winning odds... I had stacked 2 galleys, so the barb galley is now gone.
Spoiler :
Cathy has had Monarchy this turn and will trade it for Currency (didn't check for Construction but... do we even consider that trade ?).
We refused a demand from Joao for Construction.
Made a deal with Ragnar : clam for 1gpt.
In other news, we finally found Isabella. I scouted a bit inside her territory but our workboat could go back now.
All else went as planned... Except we're yet another galley short
Monarchy is a good news, though : we get a free whip if we choose to revolt. Should we revolt asap ?
Screenies :
Spoiler :
Official log :
Spoiler :
So... yeah... No galley...
Sorry I've been hosting a friend since 2 days and until thursday night, so I won't be available today and tomorrow.
I can take part in the discussions, but don't expect me to play the end of this set before friday
Duckweed, if you can/want to take it, please do ! I know you worry we're getting behind schedule.
So you just proved my predictions, both good and bad!
The loss of one more galley was too bad, and there's no backup to compensate the loss, we have to delay the war by a few turns. We need some adjustments on the plan. Do you have time to come up a revised plan? kossin is also available soon.
I don't think the earlier HR is better than 1 turn earlier of taking Russian cities, it's better to hold on the trade. Instead we can get some cash from Vicky from Math trade.
The loss of one more galley was too bad, and there's no backup to compensate the loss, we have to delay the war by a few turns.
We need some adjustments on the plan. Do you have time to come up a revised plan? kossin is also available soon.I don't think the earlier HR is better than 1 turn earlier of taking Russian cities, it's better to hold on the trade. Instead we can get some cash from Vicky from Math trade.
Compromise
Emperor
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Ce la bottom-of-the-deep. Good turnset though, BiC.
I can't figure it out from a quick glance at the tech-trade screen, but we may want to trade for Monarchy sooner rather than later to keep Cathy from passing it around (she has Alphabet).
We don't have to revolt to HR until after the assault force has been created.
I was going to say "holy Spain-on-a-lake!" but then realized that it was Barcelona instead of Madrid....
I can't figure it out from a quick glance at the tech-trade screen, but we may want to trade for Monarchy sooner rather than later to keep Cathy from passing it around (she has Alphabet).
We don't have to revolt to HR until after the assault force has been created.
I was going to say "holy Spain-on-a-lake!" but then realized that it was Barcelona instead of Madrid....
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
I'm afraid : no.
Planning a turnset would take me 1-3 hours and I hardly have 1/2 hour available for today and tomorrow. I couldn't really plan ahead : I've known that myself only a few days ago.
Late at night I am available but without much focusing abilities (read after pub crawl).
I tend to agree with you in that revolting into HR asap isn't worth it. We have very high food cities in Orleans and Paris : better suffer a little unhappiness and revolt once the army sails away.
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