Dune Wars 1.9 Final Release Feedback

Atredies Ducal Guard/Order of Agamemnon

These were originally meant to not cost any xp, but I tend to agree with David's concerns there (I'll find the post, where ever it was if anyone is interested). The problem at present however is that they just aren't that great compared to other potential promotions, especially in the late game.

For any who don't know, these are max player instance limited promotions for the Atredies meant to encourage the idea of them using a small number of highly skilled units. At present, each adds 1 to the units combat strength. That means giving ducal guard to a bladesman brings him from 5 base strength to 6, or a 20% increase. Plus any combat bonuses apply to the new 6 base strength. So, not too shaby.

Now, apply that same ducal guard promo to a kindhal soldier, 16->17. Big whoop, right? A combat promo adding 10% strength gives more. What I've done is combined that +1 strength with a % bonus as well so that it acts like having an extra combat promo and then, adds the extra base strength on top of it.

I'm also about to look at the promo help for them to make it say how many more are available, just like when building a unit with a max instances (saudakar for instance), not just the total number that can be built.

@ Chris : I would also suggest a minor tweaking of Ginaz Training as well. Right now you need combat II on a unit to be able to take GT I on the next promotion. As a result, I have never taken it since CR3 (+75% city attack) is better than +40% strength although the +20% bonus to experience is nice. I almost never use melee units for defense (the exception being fishspeakers of course) so you would almost always benefit more from just sticking to CR3 and taking a different offworld resource.

If you could take GT I as the first promotion, I could see where the long term benefit would outweigh the initial lower usefulness. I would suggest GT I have +15% strength instead of +20% so CR2 (+45% city attack) compared to GT II (+35% strength/+40% experience gained) would actually be a good tradeoff.

How about we give ginaz training some city attack bonus as well. That way, it's an interesting decision to go for the easier CR 1-2-3 promos, or build up to the Ginaz line, taking the combats first before getting to the really good stuff.

I agree that taking the trade contract should give you access to something really worth the trade off. I find ginaz training right now a fun direction to go, but not really an optimal one. This would help.

I also think that the idea of ginaz training is that just any green bladesman shouldn't be able to get it, you need some experience first, so I don't like having no prereqs.

Another idea would be an FfH'esque minLevel req, so you don't necessarily need to take combats, any unit of enough experience could get ginaz training. This is my favorite option of what I've proposed, but more work for me, so, we'll see

If I go this route, it would work slightly different. Using Ginaz 1 as an example, I might set the minLevel to 4 (you need three promotions), and keep the prereq of combat2. This means that if you have combat2, you don't need to be level 4 to get it. However taking any other promotion line, level 4 is necessary. Or, in other words, it'd act as an 'or' prereq instead of an 'and'. A few other promos tied to the combat line could benefit from this as well, medic comes to mind.

clearbeard said:

I remember it being discussed a while ago (this thread, back at post 91), but it seems interceptors (locusts anyway, don't have any of the others right now to check but I don't imagine they're different) still cannot perform intercepts while loaded in a suspensor carrier.

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I fixed this locally before my disappearance. Not sure if it was C++ change or an XML fix. I'll try and dig it out by comparing 1.9.1.2 with my local code.

Edit: Just saw that Chris says he's fix this now.

Delivator's, uh, administrative leave .

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ChrisAdams3997 said:

I actually like the fact the there are different strategies that can work. If we nerfed everything except units specifically designated to be 'city attackers' in their ability to attack cities, we'd have a more one dimensional game.

Now, that's separate from the issue of wether they should be able to take cities or not. Taking that ability away still wouldn't nerf their ability to attack cities, you'd just have to have some more combined arms for actually occupying the city. Which isn't a bad compromise.

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If you think about the Dune fiction, thopters are uses for raiding settlements but generally conquest requires additional ground forces. So, theme-wise having thopters not able to capture cities but only attack them would work IMO. However, any change would be conditional on how the AI copes as Jester Fool says.

One idea left over from my work log that I quite like is making sandstorms more of a threat by making them say 2x2 tiles or a random 4-5 tiles out of a 3x3 square. Also, they should be a more severe threat to Thopter units IMO.

Also, assuming that Arrakis is the most commonly used mapscript, the movement of sandstorms should be in a spiral pattern around the polar centre. At the moment, they move horizontally because when the Python code was written by David we only had the Archipelago map.

It would be good to have Coriolis storms that more accurately match the fiction.

Deliverator said:

Also, assuming that Arrakis is the most commonly used mapscript, the movement of sandstorms should be in a spiral pattern around the polar centre. At the moment, they move horizontally because when the Python code was written by David we only had the Archipelago map.

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Good idea, not that hard to do. This thread gives a little navigational assistance for the python. Don't try to make them move in actual circles, a diamond is good enough. In the sandstorm code today, a given storm moves one plot horizontally, and has a chance of moving -1,0,+1 plot vertically. Change this to first check which quadrant of the map it is in. If in the northeast quadrant for example, then it should move +1 horizontally and +1 vertically, with a chance of moving +1/0 or 0/-1 instead. This means that a particular storm, viewed over many turns, will move in a somewhat circular path around the map but it may spiral in or out. The code for removing storms that touch each other or cross mesa terrain would not need to be changed.

OTOH, making one storm cover a larger area would be very hard.

davidlallen said:

OTOH, making one storm cover a larger area would be very hard.

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Perhaps make them rather more common then? I'm not sure I've ever actually seen a sandstorm in the game, certainly not one that affected me in any significant way.

clearbeard said:

I'm not sure I've ever actually seen a sandstorm in the game.

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Really? That is surprising. They do not cross mesa so you do not see them over "land" often. To test, you could turn on cheat mode ("chipotle") and then reveal the map. At any time, there should be a number of them out there.

lol, I've never 'seen' one either, but it's because the graphics for it don't show up for what ever reason on my older computer with only an on-board gpu (or at least this has always been my assumption). They do destroy improvements and kill workers on occasion though, so I know they're there . It's rather odd as It's the only thing I can't see, and effects are turned on.

This is of course a problem for me with adding anything to the code controlling them. I won't have much of an idea of what they are doing .

davidlallen said:

Really? That is surprising. They do not cross mesa so you do not see them over "land" often. To test, you could turn on cheat mode ("chipotle") and then reveal the map. At any time, there should be a number of them out there.

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Not a one in sight, in either my most recent save, or one from a hundred turns or so prior. A couple of spice blows, plenty of sandworms, but no storms. Could be coincidence, but I certainly have never noticed them having an impact on my game. I've played exclusively on the Arrakis script, generally the default settings. I also haven't really been looking for them, so I'll try and keep a better eye out in future games, particularly in the early exploration stages.

As noted in the hints, and in a way by David in his post, they move from west to east, and they break up as they hit land. So, in the Arrakis map script, they really effect you mostly on the western side of the map. Like I said, something about the way they are graphically represented prevents it from showing up on my computer (or my graphics settings, not quite sure here), but every once in a while, they'll destroy spice harvesters, workers in the desert, or an improvement or two on the western side of a land mass.

p.s. David or Deliverator, any idea what's different about how it's graphically shown that could explain this issue. As a referece, spice blows, which I believe are primarily particle driven (right?) show just fine with effects on. Why wouldn't the sand storms? I'm relatively sure I'm not the only one this happens to.

davidlallen said:

Really? That is surprising. They do not cross mesa so you do not see them over "land" often.

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I remember in earlier versions (1.7/1.8) sandstorms were fairly common. In 1.9, I have never seen one. My guess is something changed in the code/map setup/terrain system(typing) which prevents sandstorms from spawning in the new version.

ChrisAdams3997 said:

Atredies Ducal Guard/Order of Agamemnon

These were originally meant to not cost any xp, but I tend to agree with David's concerns there (I'll find the post, where ever it was if anyone is interested). The problem at present however is that they just aren't that great compared to other potential promotions, especially in the late game.

For any who don't know, these are max player instance limited promotions for the Atredies meant to encourage the idea of them using a small number of highly skilled units. At present, each adds 1 to the units combat strength. That means giving ducal guard to a bladesman brings him from 5 base strength to 6, or a 20% increase. Plus any combat bonuses apply to the new 6 base strength. So, not too shaby.

Now, apply that same ducal guard promo to a kindhal soldier, 16->17. Big whoop, right? A combat promo adding 10% strength gives more. What I've done is combined that +1 strength with a % bonus as well so that it acts like having an extra combat promo and then, adds the extra base strength on top of it.

I'm also about to look at the promo help for them to make it say how many more are available, just like when building a unit with a max instances (saudakar for instance), not just the total number that can be built.

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I also play Master Of Mana a lot, It's a modmod to FfH2. Sephi coded something there that might be useful here. He has promotions that are depended on the tier of the unit. A tier 2 unit gets +2 str, a tier 3 +3 str, and a tier 4 +4 str... It could also be useful for the Ducal Guard Promotions... That way it remains about the same percentage bonus for all units. And the unit tiers in DW are fairly distinct, so it might be easy to implement... Numbers ofcourse can vary, on a bladesman, +1 str would be enough to qualify as a good promo... Another benifit of this would be that it might be worthwhile to upgrade your units and still have a reasonable benefit from the promo itself.

Lord Katana said:

I also play Master Of Mana a lot, It's a modmod to FfH2. Sephi coded something there that might be useful here. He has promotions that are depended on the tier of the unit. A tier 2 unit gets +2 str, a tier 3 +3 str, and a tier 4 +4 str... It could also be useful for the Ducal Guard Promotions... That way it remains about the same percentage bonus for all units. And the unit tiers in DW are fairly distinct, so it might be easy to implement... Numbers ofcourse can vary, on a bladesman, +1 str would be enough to qualify as a good promo... Another benifit of this would be that it might be worthwhile to upgrade your units and still have a reasonable benefit from the promo itself.

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That would certainly work if you guys can code it this way. Otherwise I think the +str/+% combination would be the way to go, though it may require more tweaking to get the numbers right.

On Ginaz Training:
I like these promotions a lot, I usually go for them already, if only for flavor reasons! Haven't really seen how they work with fractional xp (should be stronger), but if they're still on the weak side it would be okay to simply bring them up a notch.
I really like the idea of an elite promotion that you have to invest in (in this case, one of the landing stages).
Along that line I think it's the Weirding Way that needs attention even more, though.
I almost never get around to picking that up, as Ginaz is clearly superior and by the time you're over that the unit is lvl 5 and I've (usually) already won the game.

On sandstorms:
I have rarely noticed them to affect anything. Occasionally they will 'eat' a Harvester but that's about it. Anything to make them have more of an impact ( and make Weather Control worth at least considering) would be good, IMO.

Also, random idea #1: a change to Spotter Control. As it is now, I find it on the weakish side as a city will rarely be able to work over 3 desert tiles (maybe that's just my play style though). And then to have its full effect those tiles have to be superior to the 'land' tiles available.
How about an effect that gives your Spice Harvesters a 50% chance to 'survive' a worm attack? The worm would still disappear after the attempt.

I remember in earlier versions (1.7/1.8) sandstorms were fairly common. In 1.9, I have never seen one. My guess is something changed in the code/map setup/terrain system(typing) which prevents sandstorms from spawning in the new version.

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I know they are spawning, as I have mentioned I can't see them, but they do destroy stuff on occasion . Wether they are spawning in proper numbers or not... I'll have to review the code.

I also play Master Of Mana a lot, It's a modmod to FfH2. Sephi coded something there that might be useful here. He has promotions that are depended on the tier of the unit. A tier 2 unit gets +2 str, a tier 3 +3 str, and a tier 4 +4 str... It could also be useful for the Ducal Guard Promotions... That way it remains about the same percentage bonus for all units. And the unit tiers in DW are fairly distinct, so it might be easy to implement... Numbers ofcourse can vary, on a bladesman, +1 str would be enough to qualify as a good promo... Another benifit of this would be that it might be worthwhile to upgrade your units and still have a reasonable benefit from the promo itself.

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I'm familiar with Sephi's work , I'd considered doing some heavy duty FfH modding before moving into this project. The Tier tags are actually base FfH, though Sephi and others have undoubtable refined it. I know it's very heavily involved in his equipment code, and I think he might have a separate Weapon Tier tag, though following the various tag additions in FfH modmods would require a dedicated historian . At any rate, Sephi's isn't ready to release any new code, which I respect as he's got a lot of sweeping changes going on at present.

But even if the newest code was available, I'm not sure that this would really be what we need, as the tier tags are primarily for detirmining if a promo (or equipment promo) is valid for a unit, it doesn't change the value of the promo's bonus. Here that's primarily being controlled by when you research the tech prereq's. The main issue is just that it wasn't any better than any one of some of the standard promo's, so no real plus for the Atredies. I think the approach I've taken should make it worthwhile and make it scale better.

Along that line I think it's the Weirding Way that needs attention even more, though.

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Agreed! I've already got some plans here, when I get time to get to it. At present, it's a moderately stronger version of the combat promo line that requires a lot of research, and if you take it, you lose access to any promotions that require the combat promos as prereq's. Also, by the time you research it, you have very few low level units who can easily get the promo. It's just not worth it.

So, here's the idea. It becomes a 3 tiered promo (instead of 2) that after researching the tech is gained automatically, but in a (potentially) semi-random fashion. Let me explain. A civ with the tech has a python function that runs a check on each unit each turn. If they don't have WW1, they have x% chance of gaining the promo per turn, modified by experience, game speed, etc. You can expect a fair number of melee/guardmen units to get WW1. WW2 is tougher, but units with more experience again are more likely to pick it up, with WW3 continuing this trend. While it could still be given by traditional experience(possibly, still up in the air), the primary way of attaining it would be the random training route.

The whole idea is that it isn't so much an opportunity cost against other promo's, but rather it adds to what your current units already have, without having to sacrifice a promo level for it. That said, they'd be rebalanced to add only lets say 5% combat each (and some melee combat bonus), being a freebie(kind of) and all for researching the tech, more or less. It's supposed to make strong units stronger. I'd also like to bring back the instructress (requires the tech and the old Bene Gesserit trade good, 'bond of sisterhood' was it?) to increase the chances of gaining the promos.

I'd also like to use this ideology for the thumper promo, where higher level sandrider units will pick it up, again, semi-randomly. It falls in that same category of a promo that sounds nice, but in practice is too situational to sacrifice a more useful promo for it.

Another idea I'd like to begin discussion on is the Kwasitasz Haderash (I'm sure that's misspelled, just roll with it). I don't like how it's so tied into the simplistic system of how many hammers you can pump out. It's too much of a given that you'll produce one as the Bene Gesserit. The initial thoughts I've had are going towards giving each breeding project a chance to fail, requiring you to try building it again. I'm not entirely sure about this, but at least it would give the feel that it's not a certainty, and, much like the bene gesserit in the books, you don't really know when you might actually achieve it, or if you will.

Any other ideas and thoughts on this are quite welcome.

Agreed!

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Yay!

The whole idea is that it isn't so much an opportunity cost against other promo's, but rather it adds to what your current units already have, without having to sacrifice a promo level for it. That said, they'd be rebalanced to add only lets say 5% combat each (and some melee combat bonus), being a freebie(kind of) and all for researching the tech, more or less. It's supposed to make strong units stronger. I'd also like to bring back the instructress (requires the tech and the old Bene Gesserit trade good, 'bond of sisterhood' was it?) to increase the chances of gaining the promos.

I'd also like to use this ideology for the thumper promo, where higher level sandrider units will pick it up, again, semi-randomly. It falls in that same category of a promo that sounds nice, but in practice is too situational to sacrifice a more useful promo for it.

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Sounds interesting. Not sure how the Instructress would work, I never played DW while that unit was in, but it sounds cool.
As for the thumper promo, you're quite right there. I picked it exactly once in all the games I played and killed a worm just because I could. You could go the way of making it a 'free' promo like you mentioned, or it could perhaps be made more interesting in and of itself (or both...)
I read somewhere in these threads about an idea to give the thumper promo a function where you could actually plant a thumper to attract a worm. If that could be brought back it could possibly be used to:
- divert worms away from your spice fields
- ride the worm (Sayyadina graphic?), giving a fairly large combat advantage for a couple of turns (maybe with a % chance of losing the unit instead, and requiring Fremen Water Debt?)

Another idea I'd like to begin discussion on is the Kwasitasz Haderash (I'm sure that's misspelled, just roll with it). I don't like how it's so tied into the simplistic system of how many hammers you can pump out. It's too much of a given that you'll produce one as the Bene Gesserit. The initial thoughts I've had are going towards giving each breeding project a chance to fail, requiring you to try building it again. I'm not entirely sure about this, but at least it would give the feel that it's not a certainty, and, much like the bene gesserit in the books, you don't really know when you might actually achieve it, or if you will.

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It's 'Kwisatz Haderach'
If you go the route of making the projects failable, they could probably do with a stiff reduction in hammer cost and/or maybe some kind of of lesser reward. It's not a lot of fun to invest a lot of hammers and not getting anything in return
Another way of introducing uncertainty is to make the unit 'emergent' somehow: Dependent on how much you have invested in it (Breeding project 1-x completed), there is a % chance one of your melee units becomes the KH, gaining the Prescience promotion and aura effect as already in existence, but also retaining any previous promotions gained and base strength. Possible also tack on an increased XP from combat promo - Shortening of the Way indeed!

Along those lines: what happens to failed Kwisatz Haderachs? Would they just die? Or might they have a chance of becoming twisted mentats? Or going rogue, possibly changing factions (also barbarians?), or going berserk? Assassinating, performing hurtful espionage missions.. only the amount of work needed seems overwhelming.