Random events, Global Warming and the like; enjoyable? Or annoying?

Back to random events, I've decided that I while I like the idea, I don't really like their implementation.

Firstly there are just too many annoying events. I've had the same 'volcano' erupt three times in around 20 turns near the start of the game trashing all my cottages. I now just build farms on any square near a volcano instead.

Farms disappearing and roads being destroyed is just creating pointless busywork.

If you're going to have bad events then you should have proportionally more good events as well. I'd go for a ratio of 3:1 to avoid frustration.

Also the events should create interesting gameplay choices, rather than just be good or bad events that you've got no control whatsoever over. Create some risk and reward possibilities that you can choose whether to go for (the greed quest is a bit like this, but the risk is normally far too great and the reward too low).

Obviously events aren't going to be suitable for high level multiplayer games, but since you can turn them off I don't have a problem with that.

I hate global warming and always turn it off. Why is it always negative? How about turning tundra into grassland and ice caps melting?

I wonder how a Multiplayer game would turn out if everyone always got exactly the same event at the same turn in a game with no AI. Some events will still hurt/benefit some more than others, but still.

XRW175P6MQ4 said:

The Pope at the height of his power had similar power to the AP. Starting of wars, and manipulation of politics. Personally I wouldn't call the AP religion a world religion. It's more like one particular religion that thinks they are more important than all the others.

Confucianism is a religion according to the game and it functions exactly the same as any other religion in game.

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A diplo victory involves being proclaimed "leader of the world", and for it to be truthfully leader of the world, the religion would need to be a world religion and practically everybody would have to be in that religion, which hasn't happened.
In the modern sense, Confucianism isn't a religion. I'm simply debating the accurate portrayal of religions in-game.

duckstab said:

So I have a question for you (and anybody else who cares to comment). If random events actually had potential, what should Firaxis have done differently to make it something you'd actually want to have in your games? If it's simply a matter of nerfing or removing the most egregious events that's one thing (maybe even moddable), but if the mechanism by which events are triggered is brain-damaged to begin with, that's quite another.

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A bad random event should discomfort you, but not kill you.
Losing a forest tile to a fire? OK.
Have 4 barbarians spawn right next to you on turn 5? No.

A good random event should give a slight advantage, but not allow you to win automatically.
A single forge in your empire gaining +1 hammer? OK.
All melee units getting cover at turn 20? No (in case you were wondering, this is autowin via I rush 3 civs with a couple of axes each and take over their archer guarded capitals).

Quests are another kettle of fish. They are pretty OK at the moment, with some exceptions (like Roman being asked to build Praetorians; well DUH!). Some of the rewards need tweaking, though (Holy Mountain, I am looking at you!).

I began switching off events and huts as an automatism after I see most of the games in the forum doing so. Later I wondered why... CIV is a strategy game, so I don't want random "hutvents" ruin or boost my strategy.
Think about having random events in chess, like "Vicious tornadoes wiped out your left rook" or "your h-pawn has been taught the secrets of bishopric"

jordiflor said:

I began switching off events and huts as an automatism after I see most of the games in the forum doing so. Later I wondered why... CIV is a strategy game, so I don't want random "hutvents" ruin or boost my strategy.
Think about having random events in chess, like "Vicious tornadoes wiped out your left rook" or "your h-pawn has been taught the secrets of bishopric"

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Two moves in and you get a message "Your king tripped and broke his neck. Sorry".

GGracchus said:

Two moves in and you get a message "Your king tripped and broke his neck. Sorry".

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so true. But don't forget the one where you have 2 moves until checkmate and then you lose 3/4 of your pieces at random.

Or all your opponent's pawns could automatically promote into queens.

Mr. Sulu said:

random events
A. Love them!!!!!
B. Eh......... Okay?
C. Hate them! They must burn.........

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Depends on how I want to play a particular game. Imo you can play Civ4 in three main modes:
1. Strategy: I turn off events and huts, for reasons well said by TMIT. There is already plenty of randomness built in anyway for variation.
2. Adventure: Leave them on [with raging barbs, on a huge random map ].
3. Role play: Turn them off.

Overall I agree with TMIT though, events are a good concept poorly realized.

Global Warming
A. So realistic!!!!!!
B. Okay...... I guess?
C. No! Keep Al Gore out of my video games!!!!!!!

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C. Bad implementation. Maybe -1 health in a city, or -1 food for a serious 'event'.

Colonies
A. Awesome!!!!!!
B. Fine, maybe?
C. An annoying waste of my time

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C. Unless it's late game, where it's an alternative to razing.

Vassals
A. Great way to get power
B. Sometimes useful
C. To expensive!!!!!!!

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A on balance. I am almost always glad to accept capitulation to avoid having to finish a tedious war. Getting resources, and setting their research path are also useful factors. The downside is Shaka on another continent, ie Shaka IS the other continent But that's something I can play around if I want--eg early Optics to get the key intel with enough time left to do something about what I find.

Religions
A. Crush the heathens/Awesomness!!!!!!
B. Sometimes useful, sometimes not.
C. Annoying gameplay element that makes you enemies quickly.

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B. I turn off diplo victory to avoid the imo broken AP mechanism. I often target Theology for the Hagia, with great side-benefits of founding a religion and a win guarantee via the AP bonuses. Often the AP going elsewhere is a loss guarantee too, so too big an influence imo.

Upside is that Religion is a genuine strategic choice, you can forge significant economic and diplo paths with it, at the cost of other strategic routes. However big opportunity lost due to all seven being exact clones of each other.

I also don't like how acquiring religion is tied to techs. If I've founded one, I don't want Taoism when I bulb Philosophy. Couldn't it be an option, same as civics are--"You can now adopt Pacifism".

Corporations
A. Great!
B. Useful in certain situations.
C. Offshoot of the religion engine that has too little benefits for the cost.

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C. Imo Corp is too much a religion clone, too little strategic alternative. Nice for some fun in Adventure mode though, and does provide a career path for spare GPs in late game. Unemployed GPs can be so subversive.

Perhaps it works in large/huge maps with late-era starts, so you can shoot for one if you miss out on a religion, and there's still plenty of time for it to have a significant strategic impact.

Tech Trade
A. Awesome!!!!!!
B. Trade okay, Brokering not okay
C. Broken

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B. Thought I'd add this in, imo tech trade was broken before they introduced 'no brokering' [in BtS I think?]. Since that, it works well imo.

Espionage
A. Awesome!!!!!!
B. Fine, maybe?
C. An annoying waste of my time

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C. Had fun with it for a while, but seemed too exploitative holding Music / Liberalism etc completion until one turn before AI would complete them. Granted also there is an Espionage Economy route, which seems like a genuine strategic choice.

Apart from that, seems to work like a milder version of random events. If I could fortify a Spy in cities and key tiles to 'immunize' them against all except a Great Spy, that might work--I pay a cost to avoid a strategic problem. Even if building the later building(s) would immunize the city... But no, build these extra buildings which seem relatively useless.

Maybe I'm being unfair, I turned Espionage off as soon as I could.

C. Bad implementation. Maybe -1 health in a city, or -1 food for a serious 'event'.

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The problem with GW is that not only is it unrealistic, it does *nothing* in practice. Flipping equal-ratio tiles to desert, with few (and minor) exceptions, keeps everyone in the exact same relative position...so why the *non* punishment? It just serves as an annoyance, not an actual gameplay detriment...and that's BEFORE we get into how stupidly it works (triggered and effects).

C. Unless it's late game, where it's an alternative to razing.

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Colonies can play with the capitulation mechanics and magically generate defenders out of nowhere...among other uses that unfortunately are restricted immortal/deity only because otherwise the AI is too sucky.

Imo Corp is too much a religion clone, too little strategic alternative.

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Most of the best space-win times involve corps. I agree the mechanic feels too much like religion, but there ARE strategic alternatives/uses there. Replacing a resource you lack (and farming the GP for it) is an option, but corps also really increase the resource trade game and can allow for some utterly ridiculous city bonuses nothing else can touch.

Espionage is a special poison. You can rob entire tech paths with it and not spend a single slider point, if you have the infrastructure and a big empire. If you game the modifiers, the tech stealing can be insanely cheap (leading to my best streamed game ever, where I got pottery/writing at 1000 AD (not bc!) after a failed rush on immortal and still won by abusing EP modifiers!). Spy revolts for city defense ---> 0 are incredibly useful in mounted warfare (and medieval). Poisoning water + systematically destroying health buildings can starve a city to pop 1 post-haste, even if it's a culture city trying to reach legendary. Spread culture mission can flip cities faster than standard culture push ever could.

Contrary to what many realize, the EP spending + security bureaus make it very costly and difficult for spies to do anything except very basic/silly missions. Remember, ever hammer an AI puts into a spy (and replaces once its caught) is something it isn't spending on other units, infra, or wonders. Spy usage is anything BUT comparable to random events; each one is a dedicated investment into something, though obviously the AI is stupid with them .

It's a staple of the deity guys in AW games too.

If there's any expansion mechanic that truly is strategically dynamic and powerful when used well, it's espionage. Nothing else even comes close...not even vassal states.

And I stand by the assertion that tech trades/RA/whatever are too powerful. A tech trade for-value (and good players can easily get much more brokering or not) is like having oxford in every single city. Really good tech trades in a game where enough AI are available are like having multiple oxfords. In every city.

For no hammer cost. Screw tech trades; they are beyond overpowering compared to standard empire management mechanics. If EVER a feature needed toning down......

Espionage is a special poison. You can rob entire tech paths with it and not spend a single slider point, if you have the infrastructure and a big empire. If you game the modifiers, the tech stealing can be insanely cheap (leading to my best streamed game ever, where I got pottery/writing at 1000 AD (not bc!) after a failed rush on immortal and still won by abusing EP modifiers!). Spy revolts for city defense ---> 0 are incredibly useful in mounted warfare (and medieval). Poisoning water + systematically destroying health buildings can starve a city to pop 1 post-haste, even if it's a culture city trying to reach legendary. Spread culture mission can flip cities faster than standard culture push ever could.

Contrary to what many realize, the EP spending + security bureaus make it very costly and difficult for spies to do anything except very basic/silly missions. Remember, ever hammer an AI puts into a spy (and replaces once its caught) is something it isn't spending on other units, infra, or wonders. Spy usage is anything BUT comparable to random events; each one is a dedicated investment into something, though obviously the AI is stupid with them .

It's a staple of the deity guys in AW games too.

If there's any expansion mechanic that truly is strategically dynamic and powerful when used well, it's espionage. Nothing else even comes close...not even vassal states.

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In fact, my biggest gripe about espionage is that the AI has 0 idea of how to use it Espionage is ridiculously powerful if you build up things right ... and not only for tech thefts and spy revolts I've been working in my last 2 SGs ( the first was lost by winning via domination because I forgot to untick the VC ) in getting to get cities via espionage and one thing I've discovered is that espionage culture spread mission + AP/UN assign city vote makes for a very powerful move for the hammer and diplo cost , especially if you can start hammering early ( fun fact, some AI tend start running high culture slider if they feel culture pressure in their cap mansa is one of them ) ...

Espionage is indeed the better post vanilla mechanic in terms of adding meaningful content to the game ... too bad that most people don't get it because the AI still plays like it was Warlords

And I stand by the assertion that tech trades/RA/whatever are too powerful. A tech trade for-value (and good players can easily get much more brokering or not) is like having oxford in every single city. Really good tech trades in a game where enough AI are available are like having multiple oxfords. In every city.

For no hammer cost. Screw tech trades; they are beyond overpowering compared to standard empire management mechanics. If EVER a feature needed toning down......

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True, but again toning it down is hard, atleast without reducing it to impotence ( in fact, tech trading in Civ IV is already a tone down compared with civ III ). See the mess that RA in Civ V still are

I'm starting to realize that espionage is probably one of the weakest parts of my game. I manage to steal techs on occasion but I'm still looking for the right combination of techniques to abuse use it to best effect.

Does anyone know of any good guides, other than madscientist's?

What do you think about random events
A. Love them!!!!!
B. Eh......... Okay? Getting free Shock = Great, Having a building destroyed= sucks.
C. Hate them! They must burn.........

Global Warming
A. So realistic!!!!!!
B. Okay...... I guess?
C. No! Keep Al Gore out of my video games!!!!!!! I never want to use this! Ever!

Colonies
A. Awesome!!!!!!
B. Fine, maybe?
C. An annoying waste of my time I don't use this.

Vassals
A. Great way to get power
B. Sometimes useful
C. To expensive!!!!!!! Can be too easy to win or too annoying in a war, kept turned off.

Religions
A. Crush the heathens/Awesomness!!!!!! These add flavor to the game.
B. Sometimes useful, sometimes not.
C. Annoying gameplay element that makes you enemies quickly.

Corporations
A. Great!
B. Useful in certain situations. I use these, if, I have a GP at the time.
C. Offshoot of the religion engine that has too little benefits for the cost.

Oh, and I can't say how annoying inflation has been for me, for example in rhye's and fall as the americans for some reason I start in 3000 B.C., like the Babylonians and have to click the button "end turn" 346 TIMES( This is another question I have my turns don't auto-play the 346 turns, like I said I have to click to end them). Anyway, once I wasted an hour of my life doing this I have and inflation rate of 110%!!!!! This has made my economy go to the dumps and the only way to lower it is to hope I get the Random event that helps fight it but it still is only a 25% reduction. So,
A. Realistic!!!!!
B. Meh, okay?
C. DIE! DIE! DIE!

Ataxerxes said:

Identifying traits with religion is a death trap. The amount of ill-feeling that will generate isn't worth it. Besides, you're giving Christianity weak traits.

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Christianity in real life had the weakest trait of all: "Turn the other cheek." But Christianity also proved that you don't have to be tied down by your traits, you can overcome inherent weaknesses and become powerful.

Ataxerxes said:

Although I do agree that having Confuscianism as a religion is a little strange. Buddhism sometimes is and sometimes isn't a religion. I actually like the way religion works in RFC - different Civs are more likely to adopt certain religions but it isn't a guarantee.

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Maybe a "realistic religion choices" as a game option: Arabs choose Islam; Romans choose Christianity; Chinese could choose either Buddhism or Taoism or Confucianism; and so on. But then nobody would choose Judaism, which gets to a deeper discussion of why certain religions were chosen, for political reasons lol.

Ataxerxes said:

That's a very interesting point about Corps. I don't know if it's "conscious" but the AI does like to force civics on you via UN. A good argument in favor of SP.

AP does make one religion much better than the others so I guess there already is an imbalance.

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Lately I've been trying for cultural victory as it's out of character for me and a complete change of pace from my usual warmongering. And I'm failing miserably for now, lol, but it's still fun trying. Anyway as Saladin I managed to found 5 of the 6 religions (skipped Buddhism to go for the Hindu-Jew dual in the cap), and in spite of getting cathedrals for all of them in my 3 culture-monger cities, and some shiny artisty wonders to boot, I'm nowhere near Legendary in them and it seems stupid to waste GPPs on prophets. Fish out of water here and may have to break down and read a strategy guide for culture vics. I thought the Sushi culture would help but, I dunno. Back to the drawing board.

Anyway, AP: to me it's a matter of control and denying it to the AI when religion is integral to the strategy. You know if you build it, the AP religion will be your own. It also reduces the chance you could get AP nuked when at war, like "give away all your cities to the AI or else face angry people." Yeah like Catholics would have been angry for not giving away Jerusalem to the Arabs during the Crusades lol.

Does anyone know how I can eliminate global warming from the game? It's inaccurate, untrue, and annoying, and I really don't want to have to put up with propaganda when I'm trying to enjoy myself. Is there a technical trick or mod I can use?

Humanix said:

Does anyone know how I can eliminate global warming from the game? It's inaccurate, untrue, and annoying, and I really don't want to have to put up with propaganda when I'm trying to enjoy myself. Is there a technical trick or mod I can use?

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El read.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10651135&postcount=24

Skallagrimson said:

Christianity in real life had the weakest trait of all: "Turn the other cheek." But Christianity also proved that you don't have to be tied down by your traits, you can overcome inherent weaknesses and become powerful.

Maybe a "realistic religion choices" as a game option: Arabs choose Islam; Romans choose Christianity; Chinese could choose either Buddhism or Taoism or Confucianism; and so on. But then nobody would choose Judaism, which gets to a deeper discussion of why certain religions were chosen, for political reasons lol.

Anyway, AP: to me it's a matter of control and denying it to the AI when religion is integral to the strategy. You know if you build it, the AP religion will be your own. It also reduces the chance you could get AP nuked when at war, like "give away all your cities to the AI or else face angry people." Yeah like Catholics would have been angry for not giving away Jerusalem to the Arabs during the Crusades lol.

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I sense a certain inconsistency here. If you say Christianity has "the weakest trait" of "turn the other cheek", why did you make it Aggressive?

If you turn on "choose religions" at the start of the game most Civs will tend to found a religion they had historically. Izzy always founds Christianity. Judaism is a problem even in RFC, it's seldom any Civ chooses it as a state religion, although it is possible.

Control of AP is very important. Both for your own uses and for denial. I think it's too powerful in the game, but I've learned to work with it for the most part.

Ataxerxes said:

I sense a certain inconsistency here. If you say Christianity has "the weakest trait" of "turn the other cheek", why did you make it Aggressive?

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They talked the meek talk and walked the aggressive walk. My inconsistency is a consistent portrayal of Christian inconsistency.

Ataxerxes said:

If you turn on "choose religions" at the start of the game most Civs will tend to found a religion they had historically. Izzy always founds Christianity. Judaism is a problem even in RFC, it's seldom any Civ chooses it as a state religion, although it is possible.

Control of AP is very important. Both for your own uses and for denial. I think it's too powerful in the game, but I've learned to work with it for the most part.

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Mainly get big (via conquest) and stay friendly with the Pope, and he won't be quite so obsessed with giving away all your cities. Similarly so the U.N. and their trying to nerf your corporations with environmentalism.

This is an interesting poll.

1 = Random Events = B

The idea of random events is great, but some of the events themselves are not, or not properly balanced.

2 = Global Warming = B

Global Warming as a theory has evolved into a greater and deeper theory of Climate Change, where the climate of the world becomes more polarized and extreme. While the heating up of tiles was correct in previous games, in this game Climate Change should be more along the lines of incresing the changes of natural disater events occuring.

3 = Colonies = X

I've never used colonies before, so any opinion is wrong for me to post.

4 = Vassals = X

Same for Vassalage.

5 = Religions = A

Religion, and the incorperation of Religion into various aspect of the game, is Civilization IV's greatest invention and one of the greatest inventions of the entire Civilization series.

6 = Coperations = C

By contrast, Corperations are just another form of Religions, with the exception that you can't go to war as a Jeweler to destory the heathen Sushi Makers. It would be fun to try though!