RAND 1.76 Balancing and Suggestions

I realy dont feel any acctual difference in the civics, i can have every civic give me some bonus towards stability and still they revolt like thers no tomorrow only because they used to be part of a different nation a thousend years ago or some rather random financial trubble, as much as i love the revolutions mod component, it gets very very frustrating sometimes, especaly if i do pretty much anything i can to prevent revolutions and it has absolutely no effect, so i might as well run despotisem or monarchy.

It also is a real issue for the AI.

Now if the civic penaltys and bonusses do indeed work as intended despotisem might not be as overpowered as i first claimed it to be, but i still say it comes to early, also some one should realy document the revolutions feature, right now all i can do is share my thoughts on the games i have played, without any acctual knowledge of what is intended to be the way it is and what might be a bug/unbalanced.

Can't help you with that. I don't play with Revolutions on .

in war time when you capture a city, and you realize, that the enemy forces coming are going to take the city back, you could have an option to raze the captured city and retreat before they arrive. there are a bunch of times where i captured a city, then realized, i should have just razed it.

os79 said:

One thing I noticed time and again.
I got myself Heavy Cavalry unit. OK, great.
But one problem is this: I only need three technologies before I get to Mailed Knight that Heavy Cavalry upgrade to.
Armor Crafting--->Armored Cavalry--->Chivalry
Because few other requirements for Mailed Knight (Chivalry) are already satisfied for Heavy Cavalry.
Now that wouldn't be a problem for Snail or Eternity player so this is not really a big suggestion. If it is ignored, I can live with that, no problem.
I suggest that you add tweaks to AND prereq tech for Chivalry to make it even more distant from Heavy Cavalry.

Other than that, so far in the latest SVN version, the game is awesome except for these other bugs reported by other users.

Click to expand...

I played some more...
And realized I had the solution all along right in front of me! So I updated the SVN with Mounted units upgrade paths that better suit. Now Heavy Cavalry is no longer awkward.

New upgrade paths:
Warrior --->Archer (Not so sure about it being a default. It is my preference. So open to correction later on.)
Javeliner ---> Spearman, not Archer.
Horseman ---> Light Cavalry, not Mounted Infantry
Horse Archer and War Elephant ---> Mailed Knight, not Cuirassier (That is where I had the enlightenment that Mailed Knight took the place of Cuirassier in Rise of Mankind universe.)
Heavy Infantry ---> Cuirassier, not Mailed Knight (Bingo, the unit is relevant is for a long while!)

os79 said:

Warrior --->Archer (Not so sure about it being a default. It is my preference. So open to correction later on.)
Javeliner ---> Spearman, not Archer.

Click to expand...

My opinion is keep the Warrior upgrade versatile. Having the Warrior upgrade to Javeliner/Spearman or Axeman is fair considering it keeps different game speeds in mind and deals with the Warrior being a melee unit. I also think having an option for the Warrior to upgrade to Archer is also fair since chances are players will have Warriors as city guards, and IIRC in theory could have the ability to train Archers before Javeliners depending on their civ's starting tech. Also, IIRC, the Javeliner -> Spearman was introduced with the Javeliner, which was simply a way to lessen the gap from Warrior to Spearman.

Javeliner is enabled by Hunting. That is before Archers always.

How about upgrading to spearman in addition to archer? Javeliner is way too close to Warrior. Axeman is way too far. I personally don't like that spreading out to diverse units in upgrade path. But considering that Warrior is a starting unit, I may agree with that for default for other players like you and others.

os79 said:

Javeliner is enabled by Hunting. That is before Archers always.

Click to expand...

For some reason, I thought it was Stone Tools. I know that was the tech for Javeliners at least.

How about upgrading to spearman in addition to archer? Javeliner is way too close to Warrior. Axeman is way too far. I personally don't like that spreading out to diverse units in upgrade path. But considering that Warrior is a starting unit, I may agree with that for default for other players like you and others.

Click to expand...

I agree that diverse upgrade paths should be avoided, but in the case of the Warrior it is a starting unit and should have some diversity of upgrade options. Spearman and Archer do make the most sense since it does not force the player to pursue a specific tech path to upgrade a starting unit. I also have to agree that not allowing the axeman upgrade, the more I think about it, the more I think that having that upgrade option gives the message that RAND is designed to be played at faster game speeds (which of course it is not).

Already commited the said changes.
I'm now trying to create a temporary beta6. If I succeed in creating it, I will set up a temporary thread with that file for everyone to play with. Until Afforess return, I guess I can make series of beta versions every month or so if necessary.

1 I think that some promotions for units should be given from technology not for XP. Example
Herbalism -> poisoned arrows promotion
Chemistry -> chemicals promotion for siege units and so on.

2 When some technology absoletes some building ti should give the same bonus in all cites
Example Paper absoletes School of scribes but it gives +10% science in all cites (in reality it is very logical). It is imprtant cause now we have situations when you avoid some technologies as long as posible cause it absolete some bonuses that you like.

This two things make technological progress more powerfull so i think it should be 10% more expensive starting from classical era.

I recall few people complaining about Bakery not being buildable when you get Modern Granary some time ago.
Anyway, I investigated the available data (XML tags, buildings' stats, etc)
List of things I found:

• Granary and Bakery never obsolete
• Modern Granary replaces Granary, and thus "obsolete" Granary
• When Granary is no longer available in the city, Bakery can not be built
• XML for making a building being needed for Bakery to be built is "AND" list, not OR list. So that means that I cannot make Modern Granary being required for Bakery because that would make both it and Granary required, and that is not intended.
• That leave few people who complained feeling strange, I believe

So I'm wondering if I should make Bakery obsolete at Modern Agriculture (the tech Modern Granary becomes available)? That way, people do not feel strange when upgrading to Modern Granary because Bakery is simply no longer available. Plus, by then, you will have tons of food sources and then several tech columns later, you get to the tech that give you Food Processing (that requires Modern Granary), plus it is roughly the same time range between getting granary and then getting bakery in early game.

Nimek said:

1 I think that some promotions for units should be given from technology not for XP. Example
Herbalism -> poisoned arrows promotion
Chemistry -> chemicals promotion for siege units and so on.

Click to expand...

I would say keep the XP, but just have the option to upgrade units to those with tech (since Poison Arrows is granted with a random event IIRC).

os79 said:

I recall few people complaining about Bakery not being buildable when you get Modern Granary some time ago.
Anyway, I investigated the available data (XML tags, buildings' stats, etc)
List of things I found:

• Granary and Bakery never obsolete
• Modern Granary replaces Granary, and thus "obsolete" Granary
• When Granary is no longer available in the city, Bakery can not be built
• XML for making a building being needed for Bakery to be built is "AND" list, not OR list. So that means that I cannot make Modern Granary being required for Bakery because that would make both it and Granary required, and that is not intended.
• That leave few people who complained feeling strange, I believe

So I'm wondering if I should make Bakery obsolete at Modern Agriculture (the tech Modern Granary becomes available)? That way, people do not feel strange when upgrading to Modern Granary because Bakery is simply no longer available. Plus, by then, you will have tons of food sources and then several tech columns later, you get to the tech that give you Food Processing (that requires Modern Granary), plus it is roughly the same time range between getting granary and then getting bakery in early game.

Click to expand...

If Modern Agriculture gives a Food bonus to farms, obsoleting the Bakery seems like a good idea since it is likely the two will closely enough cancel out. The other option I see is removing the Granary requirement from the Bakery since IIRC it requires a "grain" resource to be built anyways, requiring "fruit" resources to gain Commerce bonuses, as well as requiring a Medieval Age technology (all of which I see as good restricting aspects of a moderately expensive, dynamic building).

Oops, that was supposed to be Agricultural Engineering.
Anyway, yeah it give a food boost to farm, apple and olive orchard. Plus commerce to Winery and others listed above if if I recall correctly.

I think I like your point about removing Granary requirement better...
So I'm removing Granary requirement until several more people have anything to say about it. Committing it to SVN. It should be in the next alpha build of beta 6 next month.

EDIT: Plus, I found when editing the file, that Food Processing building will replace Bakery later on. So that is good. It keep Bakery useful even when Modern Granary comes along.

Greetings Afforess,I m much obliged to you for bring ROM_AND.

I have some suggestions below
General:1,Increase foot soldier MP to 2,mounted troops 3(or 4) for it's too slow to conquer the wide tracts of a huge map(Roma never can be Roma).Or maybe make it user-defined in custom options?Of course navy units MP should be adjusted too.

2,if General 1 is hard to do,how about this?roads cost 1/3 MP instead of 1/2 MP,and paved road cost1/5 MP instead of 1/3 MP. Enemy can use roads too.Player can stop enermy's army by destory the roads,and the forts on border can stop enermy too,no problem.
3,How about make military units can't pass through forest(jungle,marsh etc) plots except those ones which have road(not path) on them?
4,I think AI'empire sability is a big problem.Only a few AI can make a large empire without disruption while player's empire never be disrupted(Perhaps i built too many wonders?Did wonders matter?).It was easy to win a deity game when AI's empire was disrupted into small ones.I hope player's empire stability much harder to control while AI's empire much easier to control.
5,AI never use fixed borders.Could you fixed it?
6,AI rarely change civics,I saw AI have 13 cities with chiefdom(for god's sake it s impossilbe in history).And AI with chiefdom is weaker than with despotism,monarchy or republic.
7,because of 6,AI offen leave units to balance red faces ,so AI can hardly orgnized a huge army as AI always do in CIV4 deity games.That makes game easier.

Resource:Lead +1 unhealthy is enough,isn't it?

Civics:Caste is too weak to adopt:-50% GP birthrate and +2 unhappy is too heavy to border,maybe only one of them or only +1 unhappy.
slavery is much better than coinage,but AI like coinage.slavery should be weaked or coinage should be reinforced

Diplomacy:AI trade alcohol for nothing
Weak AI choose to became a powerful AI's vassal even it s too far away

Military:Longbowman is 8 strength,maybe archer should be 4?
AI rarely train mounted unit,including elephant unit

Technology:Glass blowing should not obsoleted pottery,or it's hard found why player should research this techology.
Sanitation.I think it s too expansive,maybe cut down 20% is better.

Bulidling&wonder
Apiary(early building) +1food +2 gold ,I suspect +1 food +1 gold is better
Pyramid of Magician,a golden age,+1 trade route in all city,+50% trade route yield,+2 free priest,750 hammer(double production speed with stone) ,too great,isn't it?Only a golden age worth 750 hammer.
Angkor Wat,The Hagia Sophia,useless,and 825 hammer,too expansive.
Barrack.There are so many unhappy could be made by barrack,strange,isn't it?Nobody care whether barrack located in theirown city or not.
Bakery,+2 food +1 gold with apple ,bannan,lemons is enough.
Courthouse.I think it should add -1 red face.

Aline, I find that Despotism is instead underpowered, compared to Monarchy. Also, I had a big empire that was falling apart because of instability, and when I switched to Federal, the problem was fixed, so I find that this part of the game is generally well balanced.

KrisButtar said:

in war time when you capture a city, and you realize, that the enemy forces coming are going to take the city back, you could have an option to raze the captured city and retreat before they arrive. there are a bunch of times where i captured a city, then realized, i should have just razed it.

Click to expand...

You can already abandon cities using a keyboard shortcut when in city screen.

Changing movement points of units is a very big change. You would need to rebalance the whole game around that.

yycy00 said:

Bulidling&wonder
Apiary(early building) +1food +2 gold ,I suspect +1 food +1 gold is better

Click to expand...

I know I edited it to give +1 Food, +1 Commerce, +1 Health, and raised the cost ~10% with what I play with.

Barrack.There are so many unhappy could be made by barrack,strange,isn't it?Nobody care whether barrack located in theirown city or not.

Click to expand...

The negative effects for barracks are for "Peace" civics, many of which give happiness for other buildings (at least the last time I checked).

Courthouse.I think it should add -1 red face.

Click to expand...

Why? Balance? Flavor? I could see flavor-wise having unhappiness with less democratic civics though.

Technology:Glass blowing should not obsoleted pottery,or it's hard found why player should research this techology.

Click to expand...

Story behind this one: Originally, the obsolete tech was Plastics, then I left it to Afforess who changed it to Glass Blowing. When I came back, I changed it to Metallurgy, but I think Afforess was getting to focused on wrapping up AND due to CiV to notice any chages I made.

Aline said:

I realy dont feel any acctual difference in the civics, i can have every civic give me some bonus towards stability and still they revolt like thers no tomorrow only because they used to be part of a different nation a thousend years ago or some rather random financial trubble, as much as i love the revolutions mod component, it gets very very frustrating sometimes, especaly if i do pretty much anything i can to prevent revolutions and it has absolutely no effect, so i might as well run despotisem or monarchy.

It also is a real issue for the AI.

Now if the civic penaltys and bonusses do indeed work as intended despotisem might not be as overpowered as i first claimed it to be, but i still say it comes to early, also some one should realy document the revolutions feature, right now all i can do is share my thoughts on the games i have played, without any acctual knowledge of what is intended to be the way it is and what might be a bug/unbalanced.

Click to expand...

The revolution mod is easy to handle: found a religion when you have 4+ cities. early monarchy is also a good idea (you already mentioned it). More happiness with more soldiers also stop any revolution. I play on king difficult. but I still think, revolution mod is the most difficult thing in and.

Acctualy i am more bothered by how good the early civs are even thoughout the later game, particularly when it comes to revolutions management.
I can easely keep monarchy thoughout the entire game and never bother to switch, especaly since it will mess up my capital, the same is true for despotisem.
I just see no reason to adopt any of the later civics, especaly the goverment ones, even with a large empire adopting federation is barely worth it if my uber capital can easely pay for those few bribes, why bother with it, i would need a realy large empire to have the upkeep make any difference, i loose fixed borders and it makes barely any differance in regards to revolutions.
Revolutions hurt smal empires to much and large ones to little, once you are fully set up an occasional revolution will be just free xp, while it is absolutely devastating if you are weak allredy, while this might be realistic it makes no sense from a gameplay perspective.

It would be great if, by the time one reaches nanobotics, there was a Wonder (or else) disabling the radioactive clouds pollution. It gets a little tiring managing an army of clones cleansing terrain and rebuilding improvements. Maybe the wonder that disables nukes worldwide could also stop radioactive pollution.

On a totally unrelated note, I can't access the M.A.D panel. Hope this is a known bug that will be corrected in the next version because I love the idea. Does targetting cities with nukes increase discontent in these cities or is it something else?