Rat43 CCM - Every Knee Shall Bend

Northern Pike · Oct 10, 2011

Our buildup for the Greek war is going well, but as usual the need to garrison earlier conquests is diverting units wed rather have at the front. Its also a concern that well be fighting mostly defense-three Hoplites. I wouldnt launch the attack until all the fast units we now have on the roads have reached the front, and at least four pikemen are available to anchor our SoD. This would mean that wed be invading Greece about halfway through the next round, and attacking Sparta towards the end.

The next player should feel free to rush pikemen in Angkor to give our stack more defensive backbone. Once we start taking Greek cities, well get the gold back manyfold. You may also prefer to upgrade more chariots to knights than the three Ive promoted; its a matter of taste whether the extra attack point is worth sacrificing the chariots blitz attack and easy promotion to elite.

The settler were about to receive should found a city south of Tikal, at 1 on the screenshot. Weve already built the road to this site.

The worker stack now servicing Yazi should move south to Uxmal after completing its present mine. Uxmal will never have fast growth, so we need to keep up with irrigation there, especially of the two furs tiles.

We should start clearing the jungles around Palenque soon. This isnt as labour-intensive in CCM as in C3C.

Our worker coverage around Tikal is shaky, because I wanted to keep pushing pikemen towards the front, but it should be possible to correct that next turn.

Engineering remains the only tech in circulation that we don't have, so there are no twofer opportunities yet.

Northern Pike · Oct 10, 2011

Northern Pike
Greebley - UP
Elephantium - On Deck
ThERat
CommandoBob

ThERat · Oct 10, 2011

Nice progress and great job taking out Indochina :goodjob:

I like the tech trading a lot and finally we're a theocracy though we are not making any use of the special building (we don't want to do inferior research right now).

Elephantium · Oct 10, 2011

The special building acts as a barracks, too.

I think it has a third effect, but I'd have to double-check.

Greebley · Oct 11, 2011

Ok, I got it.

Greebley · Oct 11, 2011

Preturn: I have a cold and if this was AW I might consider doing a swap because I don't play as well when sick. I should be able to handle this though.
Built 3 embassies for Portugal, Turkey, and Netherlands to get some more idea what the continent looks like.

I considered a coastal city S of our capitol, but spotted we do have 1 coastal city already. Decide to build 2 ships before the 18 turn harbor.

500 AD: Greeks are clearly heading somewhere North. I lose an Enslaver to s def 1 unit and kill 2 units gaining a slave.

525 AD: Greeks head Southish again.

550 AD: Navigation and Engineering are out there. I get Nav for most of our gold and GPT (105 gpt + 1450 from Poland. Getting Engineering for 15gpt + 132 gold (sold some techs to get this) from Carthage. Get back 41 gold and 20 gpt from Netherlands for Navigation. Got 151 gold from Rome.
We end up with 326 gold and 16 gpt.

Attack Greece because their Catapults and such are on the border and may retreat next turn. I declare war and attack. We do pretty horribly, losing 2 Knights and ACav vs def 1 units as well as a unit vs a Pike. We gained 4 more gpt from the dead units. Got a Monk.

IBT: Greek units move forward.

575 AD: Attack the new units. Lose a Catapult and Knight to 2 Pikes. Kill 3 Pikes, Cat, and some Archers.

600 AD: We lose yet another Knight. Battles are not going well. We now have a second Monk. We have not yet advanced into their territory.
I suspect our Scout up north will die. It was blocked by an invisible unit and ended next to it.

IBT: Yup our Scout near Italy is killed.

625 AD: We are mostly healed to advance but it is not a good turn to do so.

IBT: Russia declares war on Italians.

650 AD: A single Pikeman kills 2 Catepults and lowers our Elite* to 1 hp. Finally move forward

IBT: Egypt and Portugal sign Peace Treaty.

675 AD: Only a few Greek to kill - Advance.

700 AD: Advance again. Nothing to attack.

IBT: A dangerous number of Italians show up near our border to the North

725 AD: Attack and Capture Sparta losing a Knight. Lose another Knight to a Pike. Lose a Priest to a def 1 longbow. We get 2028 Gold. Use one of the Monks on Sparta.

Notes:

I rushed Monastary in our Northern towns. They are not very well defended. I would rush walls next turn or defender if it appears Romans are after us. I would upgrade troops defenders and build walls next turn. If they go for the North town, then upgrade Spear, Warrior (move workers in) and move Javelin North. If they go for the South town, then it may be worth moving the Spear toward the Southern town (if we can get there in time).

Also note that there are towns on the far side of ours so they may be just passing through to go after Russia or something. I would defend, but not boot them.

Put many units in Sparta to lower resistance. Flip chance may be high so move out afterward.

I also tried to defend an Enslaver. I don't think many Greek units will be able to attack.

Northern Pike · Oct 12, 2011

Starting the war while a lot of Greek units were vulnerable outside their cities was a good idea :goodjob:

, even if the RNG didn't really reward us.

Given the timing, I think we can assume that the Roman units are passing through our northern lands on the way to Russia, but I'm glad you took precautions.

Greebley said:
650 AD: A single Pikeman kills 2 Catepults and lowers our Elite* to 1 hp.

I've changed my mind a couple of times on how to use catapults in CCM, so this isn't a criticism. But I think now that they're too valuable in softening up tough city targets, with their enhanced retreat, to be risked otherwise unless the odds are 4-1. If these were just ordinary 4-3 attacks in the open, I would have used our easily replaced knights, not cats.

Elephantium · Oct 12, 2011

I'm up, I've got the save, and I'll plan to start playing tomorrow night, probably finishing Thursday night. I'm planning to attack Athens first, then Piraeus (and anything west of there) before moving on Corinth -- we'll head south from there, so it makes the most sense to take Piraeus first.

If the Roman units start any trouble, I'll fight a defensive war and slow down operations in Greece, but it sounds like they're focused on Russia.

Through all this, I'll keep an eye out for tech deals. I see that Poland has Theology, but they're the only tribe with any gold to speak of -- we'll have to wait for others to make new discoveries before trading.

For builds, I'll build veteran units anywhere I can and emphasize Monasteries otherwise.

Anything else to consider?

Northern Pike · Oct 12, 2011

A cross-post, saying largely what you've just said:

The layout of the Greek lands is such that once we take Athens, the rest will be a long mopping-up operation. Athens will be a tough objective, though, with 7-9 Hoplites a normal garrison, so we should make that attack in massive force. And as Greebley suggests, flips in the Greek core look almost inevitable, so we should make our dispositions accordingly--garrisons we can afford to lose and recapture forces right outside.

Greebley doesn't mention it, but Copán will be capable of two-turn knight production after it builds its windmill this IT, and of course Chichén Itza can return to knights after its present pikeman.

The Greeks and the Poles have Theology, but there's no other tech we don't have in circulation, and hence no possibility yet of a twofer.

Northern Pike · Oct 12, 2011

Elephantium said:
For builds, I'll build veteran units anywhere I can and emphasize Monasteries otherwise.

Anything else to consider?

I would emphasize normal city development (NS --> Stonehead --> granary --> town centre if necessary --> slavery/windmill/town clock --> aqueduct if necessary --> marketplace) more than this implies. The four monasteries Greebley has building plus the three already completed will be enough for the moment. We're getting most of our military production from our fully developed core cities, and that's fine for this point in a CCM game.

Uxmal, in particular, is a high-commerce city that should build its marketplace next.

Incidentally, the vessels we sent out from Bonampak have established that that town is on a small inland sea, so we still don't have a coastal city in the sense of one from which we can send ships to other continents.

Athens --> Piraeus sounds good.

Greebley · Oct 12, 2011

I think a 'real' coastal city south of our Capitol and sending out boats would be a good plan for our next settler. I like to know the shape of the continents and there is likely more civs we can find.

I assume catapults and Knights have the same retreat chance? Is the advantage of the cats the fact they can be upgraded to high(er) attack units? Currently their attack is the same. This makes Knights currently better with their real movement of 2.

I would also move 1-2 Knights up north even if we are not attacked. We should have some offense in that area as it is hard to reinforce.

ThERat · Oct 12, 2011

Agree with NP on the build order...no point to rush 'barracks' in cities that are not productive.

Watch our for Romans...

I am not around tomorrow but will be back Friday night, so that shouldn't be an issue

Northern Pike · Oct 12, 2011

I agree with Greebley that we need to get ships out on the (real) sea, but Athens and Piraeus appear to be on the open ocean. So once we've taken those towns, we may be able to avoid wasting a settler on the mediocre coastal sites of our core.

There could still be a good coastal site in the fog east of Yazi, though--perhaps Elephantium could send a unit to investigate that.

Greebley said:
I assume catapults and Knights have the same retreat chance?

No, catapults have a special, enhanced retreat chance to give them something of the ability of Civ IV bombardment units to deplete enemies they don't destroy, while surviving themselves. This is useful in the worst city attacks we have to make, for example against towns with castles. Civinator only explained this once and you may not have been playing in that game.

ThERat · Oct 15, 2011

Elephantium, it has been 4 days already. Are you able to play or do you need a skip?

Elephantium · Oct 16, 2011

I'm so sorry - this completely escaped me :|

I'm playing now.

Edit: Turnlog, save, handoff notes

Spoiler :

There's a twofer opportunity with Alchemy and Theology, but I didn't make the trade -- we can probably get both techs from Greece in exchange for peace relatively soon. Speaking of Greece, we might want to leave Knossos alone for now -- it's a good place for us to leave to them as we clear their other holdings before taking techs for peace.

And again, sorry it took so long to get my turnset played! :blush:

Northern Pike · Oct 16, 2011

A great result at Athens. :thumbsup:

The Greeks are largely crippled now.

Elephantium said:
Battle of Athens:
Catapult retreats, no damage
Catapult retreats, 2 damage to vHoplite
Catapult retreats, 2 damage to vHoplite
Catapult retreats, no damage vs. rHoplite

This is exactly what the enhanced retreat of catapults is supposed to achieve--not :wallbash:

at all.

We have to eliminate the Greeks without allowing them an extra twenty turns of life, given the high flip risk and massive resistance in their cities. Pointy-stick research normally yields very disappointing results after the AA anyway; this is one outright error in the design of Civ III that was never corrected. So we should definitely take the Alchemy-Theology twofer, rather than waiting.

It may be a while before Athens and Piraeus are out of resistance, and it'll only be safe to send ships out of them when Greece is eliminated, so we should probably revert to Greebley's idea of founding a coastal city with the settler we're about to receive. I'd choose the site SE-SE-SE-SE-S of Chichén Itza, which might be reasonable after some marsh drainage (and this is faster in CCM than in C3C). Accepting overlap with CI to take in the one tobacco tile would be quite wrong, in CCM.

Uxmal needs worker attention and a marketplace.

Northern Pike
Greebley
Elephantium
ThERat - UP
CommandoBob -On Deck

ThERat · Oct 16, 2011

Pre turn
sell Spain engineering for 25gpt and 125gold
our capital will get unhappy, swap to theater
since we got some money, I rush some town centers

buy alchemy from Poland for 3400gold
get theology from Rome for alchemy and 18gpt

3 nations have clockworks in the meantime
send the army towards Knossos

IT Greece unloads a whole armada next to Piraeus, including 2 priests

Turn 1 - 1000AD
attack LB outside Knossos, then defeat 2 hoplites, lose 2 knights in the process, we take 1845gold from the Greek coffers
culture bomb the place, culture bomb Athens too
take out the Greek stack of 9, the rest of our units is moving forward or healing

Turn 2 - 1025AD
defeat LB and create a monk, set up attack on Corinth

rush a few more buildings

Turn 3 - 1050AD
Blitz attack of Corinth, get workers to lay a road so we can swiftly attack the city
take out 3 hoplites, lose a knight and gain a MGL,

this fellow can rush the great guild once we have gunpowder
then lose a AC and knight, defeat 1 LB, 1 hoplite and an invisible unit and we take Corinth

bomb the city...we need more culture to prevent flips

Turn 4 - 1075AD
lose a cuahic in the open attacking a LB, take care of it and a crusader
move forward splitting the troops so we can attack two cities

IT Greeks are gassed judging by their abysmal unit movement

Turn 5 - 1100AD
attack Patras with fast units, lose only 1 knight taking out 3 hoplites, gain 2100gm and sink a whole
stack of ships

attack Pharsalos, lose 2 knights, take city for 2500gold
Greece now has only 2 cities left

Turn 6 - 1125AD
healing turn and preparation for the final assaults on Greece

IT lose a priest against a Greek LB

Turn 7 - 1150AD
set up attack on Byzantion, Delphi will have to wait another turn

IT Poland starts Holy Book Printed
our capital now makes 40spt and I start the temple of the moon

Turn 8 - 1175AD
so PP is out, but we can only trade clockworks. I rather wait for another tech for a 2 fer
sell a low tech to Spain

take Byzantion and gain 3600gold, we lose a knight
found Quirigua to get us some gems, horses and some of the dyes

IT Ploish finish Kaaba, I think we have our next target

Turn 9 - 1200AD
move up to the last Greek city, defeat a LB
establish the remaining embassies (3)

IT Egypt of all nations finishes the philosophers stone

Poland finishes the great Cathedral

Turn 10 - 25BC
Egypt has 2 techs over the others, including gunpowder

It costs us 3 attempts, but I manage to steal gunpowder from Egypt
sell it to Poland for clockworks and 1400gold
buy monopoly tech renaissance from Egypt for 8300gold :eek:

sell renaissance, gunpowder for Carthage for PP and 90gpt
sell renaissance to Poland for 2500gold
sell PP to Egypt for 5500gold

sell clockworks to Netherlands for 100gold and 49gpt

rush Great Guild in Rangoon, upgrade 14 pikes to firelancer

lose 2 trebs, 1 knight at the attack of the last Greek city

The situation:
The Greek campaign has ended and we are very rich, we have gained all known techs, we do have all resources

Athens has produced one ship and we should churn out more. I leave it to the next player to rush build,

I put our units in Greek cities to quell the resistance. We should complete a little more infrastructure and then head for Poland or France.

We also need to decide whether we continue to broker for now or to start building those science buildings.

Elephantium · Oct 16, 2011

Dang, ThERat, you are a machine! :salute:

Very nice work finishing off the Greeks and trading techs!

Northern Pike · Oct 16, 2011

Yes, great work. :goodjob:

I thought it would take more like two rounds to scoop up all Greece's scattered cities.

Our empire is growing nicely, but it's still pretty small for purposes of self-research in deity CCM, so I'd say we should stick with brokering for the moment. If the rival civs we know aren't aren't driving the tech pace at all, we can reconsider.

The Poles are weak relative to us and don't have saltpetre, so we should definitely attack them next. Unfortunately we can't account for their ninth city, so we may have to remain at war with them until we discover it behind France, or wherever it may be. Even so, we have to seize this opportunity.

We should invade Poland with close to thirty main attack units--knights, trebs, and cats--in addition to defensive and supporting units and a one-turn roading stack. We should be able to assemble this force about halfway through the next round. Some rushing in Greece to provide garrisons for the cities our attack units leave would be fine.

We seem to be out of monks, and we really want one so that we can culture-bomb the first Polish city we take. So safe shots against French workers with our priests would be a good idea--safe, in that the priest is always covered by a visible unit.

Delphi should rush its NS and Stonehead, even at double price, so that it will get a cultural expansion in time for the attack on Poland. It would also be useful to rush a scout somewhere near Poland, to clear some of the fog west of Wroclaw before we go to war.

As Rat observes, we can rush improvements pretty lavishly now. At a minimum, all our cities should have granaries by the end of the next round, and any that would benefit should get town centres.

We can also rush ships generously in our Greek coastal towns--a first wave of mixed galleasses and Quetzalcoatl ships to define the coastline of our continent without taking any risks, and a second of Q-ships for suicide runs.

Northern Pike - On Deck
Greebley
Elephantium
ThERat
CommandoBob - UP

ThERat · Oct 16, 2011

Am not a machine :lol:

Anyway, I agree with NP's assessment of the situation yet again. We do need to have some more defenders to accompany our troops. I always tend to build too many fast units.

Rat43 CCM - Every Knee Shall Bend

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