SGOTM 14 - Plastic Ducks

@Deity : Duckweed didn't express any doubt on our research capacity,he merely pointed out that in the PPP, Compass is researched twice. It should read "T97 Compass done,..." and "T99 Aesth done, ..." or the other way around, it's for kossin to clarify that.

Also, the plan is slightly different from anything that has been posted before, especially regarding the tiles worked.
To sum up the number of Sci hired in every city (Wash/Bos/Atl/Chi/Sea) :
T93 : 4/4/0/0/4
T94 : 4/4/1/5/6
T95 : 4/4/6/6/6
T96 : 5/4/6/6/6
T97 : 5/4/6/6/6
T98 : Boston pops a GP, I'm also in favor of pausing then



I've run the PPP in game, and everything seems fine regarding city management. I confirm that the 4th GPP will come out of Wash on T100, just as planned.
The only thing still worth debating is the worker micro around NY/Atlanta on one hand, and Seattle on the other hand.

In Seattle, since this city will pop its GP last, whatever happens, I'd say that we'll be needing the road sooner than the farm, so my vote is on the road.

In NY/Atlanta, I'm undecided.
If we follow kossin's plan, we would need Calendar on T102 if I'm not mistaken. Based on my tests, the chance that we're able to trade Calendar by then is > 50% and that's without accounting for the faster tech pace of the AIs in the live game. It will also have the sugar improved just when Atlanta pops its GP and needs to work it, so I'd say that this option is interesting.
OTOH, we lose two worker turns, + a few more when these workers have to make their way back to other cities. So maybe only 1 worker around Atlanta would be enough.
If it comes to this, I think I'd vote for kossin's option

Bebekija said:

@Deity : Duckweed didn't express any doubt on our research capacity,he merely pointed out that in the PPP, Compass is researched twice. It should read "T97 Compass done,..." and "T99 Aesth done, ..." or the other way around, it's for kossin to clarify that.

Click to expand...

Oh, I see now.

Duckweed said:

Originally Posted by kossin
On mobile, I'll edit later.

Forgot T93 Seattle gets 4 scientists.

I did not mean to ask Seattle, but reminded that you mixed Chicago with Seattle.


T94
All 3 GP cities will grow to 9, see previous page, you agreed.
The other worker roads... Dunno where the line went.


T95
Yes yes
Road vs farm: no strong opinion. Although we may want the extra food, the 1t of farm would mean it's improved 1t earlier. Road could be added afterwards.

As I mentioned, that road also facilitate the movement to silk tiles.
I still prefer the option of +1F over +3C. I know the road is needed, but between a 3F1C or 2F4C tile in a whipping world, you'd take 2F4C?


T97
The idea was to improve sugar with 2 workers while helping movement back to the forest later. The sugar is chopped on the same turn, improved 2t earlier if we get Calendar.

In the best case, you get 2F2C with the cost of 2 worker turns. What if we can't get Calendar in time?

I'll look into this before commenting.

I know you aren't doing tests but I am. Tech will be done with large overflow into Aesthetics.

Quote:
T97 Compass done, start Aesthetics
Quote:
T99 Compass done, start Metal Casting
This was why I asked.

Click to expand...

There were still a few things unclear or confusing in your plan. It seems that you let Washington pop the 7th GP, I don't like this approach too much since it means that we will use the GP from Boston to launch the GA even it's a GS. I prefer to let Washington produce 4th GP since we can use it to bulb Machinery or launch the GA if it's a GE and the one from Boston is a GS. As I have said all the time, I'd like to reevaluate when the Boston produce it's GP.

Click to expand...

Comments and
GPP is posted below. Boston->Wash->Atlanta->Chicago->Seattle

The only reason to stop here is if we decide to not trigger a GA with the GPs from either Boston or Washington. It doesn't change anything otherwise, the GA is not triggered before both GPs are out.

Bebekija said:

I'll have to run the PPP to get a clear view, cause I can't figure it all just by reading, but I can already tell that this PPP is in line with the last GPP plan that kossin posted earlier : it will lead to Wash popping the 4th GP.

Click to expand...

GPP is posted below. The main change is in Washington to let the settler out earlier.
Now that I look over it, it makes switching to 8-GP plan very complicated, because Washington is losing more food than it would require. So either we bite down or delay the settler?

Deity player said:

Only to be sure:

a) the worked tiles on T93 are these:
Atlanta: sheep, clams, crab, 4 coast
Chicago: pigs, sheep, 2 lakes, 4 coast
Seattle: pigs, fish, clams, FP, 4 scientists
Yes. Sorry, I can never remember real names, which is why I usually say 'Canal', 'Silver' and 'Silk'

b) You plan to settle San Francisco 1S of dye.

Ok?
Yes

~~~~~~~~~~

I agree with Duckweed on the missionary:


I slightely prefer the road. (The farm can also be added later.)


I have no opinion on this but I think that the probability of trading for Calendar in time is rather high.

@Duckweed: The dates of researching Compass and Aesthetics are correct. We have lots of scientists to do it.

I would also stop after the Boston GP. Kossin, could you write the name of the spreadsheet you follow in the game (to save us some time while searching the correct one)?

Click to expand...

GPP plan posted below.

Deity player said:

A typo?

Click to expand...

No.

Bebekija said:

Also, the plan is slightly different from anything that has been posted before, especially regarding the tiles worked.
To sum up the number of Sci hired in every city (Wash/Bos/Atl/Chi/Sea) :
T93 : 4/4/0/0/4
T94 : 4/4/1/5/6
T95 : 4/4/6/6/6
T96 : 5/4/6/6/6
T97 : 5/4/6/6/6
T98 : Boston pops a GP, I'm also in favor of pausing then

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's a very clear view.

Regarding worker micro around Silk city:

Before we complete CS or even after, I rate 3C > 1F. Most of our cities are food abundant and enough to support the whip cycles.

Regarding worker micro around Sugar city:

I don't rate 2F2C > 2 worker turns. The worker working on the forest tile can be sent to help the silk city more conveniently.

Fine, I don't care much at this point, our cards are played.

Are we okay with fastest San Francisco and locking ourselves out of possible 8 GP?

Yes for me.

PPP-T104~105 GPP plan

Changes

Every turn:
-check tech screen
-check hub for barbs/galleys
-move missionary towards north witches 1 tile at a time unless the following tile is hill/forest

T93
Wash: cow,corn,sheep,2 mines, 4 scientists
NY: deer, wheat, gems, PH, 1 artist
Boston: rice, crabs, gold, 4 scientists
Philly: switch 2F to 2F1C
Seattle: 4 2F1C to specialists

Workers with a current job resume.

Toto to be sent 1SW of cows to replace the spawnbuster.

T94
NY: PH to Artist
Philly: 2F1C to mine, start LH
Atlanta: 1 coast to 1 scientist
Chicago: 4 coast 1 lake to 5 scientist
Seattle: 2F1C and fp to 2 scientist

Wash worker chops (done)
Seattle worker 1N2E goes to fp+farm
Seattle worker 1N2E roads

T95
NY: 2 artists to 2F1H and 2H
Philly: 2F1C to farm
Atlanta: 5 coast to 5 scientists
Chicago: 1 lake to 1 scientist

Wash worker to sugar
Philly 2 workers to finish farm
Seattle worker 2S2E moves NW, road+cancel

Spawnbusting warrior to NY

T96
Wash: PH mine to scientist
NY: PH to farm

NY worker to jungle
Philly 3 workers to 1W, farm
Seattle worker 1S1E to fp+farm
Seattle worker 1N2E to Ivory+road

T97
Wash: grass mine to 3F1C, starts barracks
Boston: starts barracks
Philly: mine to farm

Wash settler to Seattle PH
NY worker to forest
Boston wb to new clams
Philly worker 2W to 1N farm
Atlanta worker on sugar roads

Compass done, start Aesthetics

T98
Wash: 3F1C to scientist
NY: new pop to lake
Boston: 1 scientist to Oasis, 3 scientists to Merchants

NY worker farms over forest
Philly worker 2W to 1N farm
Philly worker 2W to 1N1E farm+cancel
Seattle worker 2N2E to Dye
Seattle worker 2E to 1W+farm

Boston GP pops, sleep.

Pause+save+upload

If there are any further changes, this post will be edited.

The 8GP plan lets us have macemans much earlier and the veteran macemans from the early war will help the late wars, where we will face LBs almost for sure. Not very sure whether 10~15 turns earlier macemans or 3~4 turns of earlier total war is better. I'm fine to stick to the T104-105 plan if the majority agree.

I have no more issue. Good luck!

I'll try to start/finish tonight.

First request... sent him packing. (actually tried pressing F4 but that cancelled the request... -1, no war)

Alright, minor problems.

Tech is way different than the actual game apparently, we have much less beakers in Aesthetics.
Our religion is pissing people off. 3 teams don't want to trade with us.
Good: Mansa & co. just got Calendar (no trade yet).

And barbs.


There is a spear under the marker (very likely).
How do we want to deal with this.

In the test game, when this situation arose, moving the archer to the forest made the warrior attack every time...

kossin said:

Alright, minor problems.

Tech is way different than the actual game apparently, we have much less beakers in Aesthetics.

Click to expand...

Yesterday, I realized this event in the test game: "575 BC - Chicago celebrates We Love the Prime Minister day." I wonder how big influence this has on our economy.

kossin said:

And barbs.

Spoiler :

There is a spear under the marker (very likely).
How do we want to deal with this.

In the test game, when this situation arose, moving the archer to the forest made the warrior attack every time...

Click to expand...

I think that moving to the forest is the best possibility. Letting the warrior pass is unthinkable and attacking him would mean encounter the spear earlier and possibly with more injuries.

Will the difference in beakers have an influence on the rest of our research? i.e. are we still able to finish the techs needed on T104-105?

Similarly, based on the diplo standings and modifiers, are you still confident that we'll be able to do the trades needed? (Calendar? MC? Constr?...)

As for the barbs, I also agree to moving to the forest. Our archer probably doesn't even need a promotion yet, leaving Guerilla I available if the spear comes at us and we want to move back to the hill..

Deity player said:

Yesterday, I realized this event in the test game: "575 BC - Chicago celebrates We Love the Prime Minister day." I wonder how big influence this has on our economy.

I think that moving to the forest is the best possibility. Letting the warrior pass is unthinkable and attacking him would mean encounter the spear earlier and possibly with more injuries.

Click to expand...

The event just removes some upkeep from the city for a few turns. It's nothing too major to be a concern.

Bebekija said:

Will the difference in beakers have an influence on the rest of our research? i.e. are we still able to finish the techs needed on T104-105?

I am not certain but I believe so. Based on my earlier tests, finishing Machinery was not a problem by itself. Optics I could do by sacrificing a bit of food and building some research, but it wasn't all-out. Getting an extra 30 beakers over 3 turns shouldn't be too extreme to pull off, especially with the extra discounts on MC for the game.

Similarly, based on the diplo standings and modifiers, are you still confident that we'll be able to do the trades needed? (Calendar? MC? Constr?...)
We might have to gift some crappy techs around (Compass, Aesthetics). For now, it's not too bad because Construction is known only to the "Toku"-team and all the other techs are to Mansa - who can't trade until another (1,2) teams know the same tech.

What I find surprising is that Montezuma has already managed to accumulate -4 for us being in a different religion.

Worst case scenario, we can opt out of the religion after GPP is done and then trade, so it's not TOO bad.


As for the barbs, I also agree to moving to the forest. Our archer probably doesn't even need a promotion yet, leaving Guerilla I available if the spear comes at us and we want to move back to the hill..

Click to expand...

Alrighty. If Duckweed comments this morning I'll try finishing before leaving, otherwise it will be tonight (15~16 hours from now).

^^Funny, I checked the XML variables and it looks like -3 should be the worst religious penalty possible.

-4 is the minimum in standard games. What's surprising here is the speed at which it decreased... We've been in a religion for ~10 turns. I guess you get double penalties when playing teams.

The religious nuts (i.e. Isabelle, Justinian, Monty, ...) have the following XML variables :

iDifferentReligion = -2
iDifferentReligionLimit = -1
iDifferentReligionDivisor = -5

What I got from this is that you'd start with a -2 penalty the minute you adopt a different religion, then lose -1 every 5 turns , until you reach the limit -2+-1 = -3.

Obviously I'm wrong with the limit thing, but if I'm right with the rest then -4 in 10 turns should be the standard behaviour.

kossin said:

There is a spear under the marker (very likely).
How do we want to deal with this.

In the test game, when this situation arose, moving the archer to the forest made the warrior attack every time...

Click to expand...

If that spear indeed in that tile, then the missionary has to move 2 tiles to pass it. If that spear come at our archer, then the safe way way is to retreat to canal city.

Regarding the warrior, I'd usually just attack it, >98% winning odd? However, there's nothing wrong to do in your way.

Bebekija said:

The religious nuts (i.e. Isabelle, Justinian, Monty, ...) have the following XML variables :

iDifferentReligion = -2
iDifferentReligionLimit = -1
iDifferentReligionDivisor = -5

What I got from this is that you'd start with a -2 penalty the minute you adopt a different religion, then lose -1 every 5 turns , until you reach the limit -2+-1 = -3.

Obviously I'm wrong with the limit thing, but if I'm right with the rest then -4 in 10 turns should be the standard behaviour.

Click to expand...

He owns the holy city, which gives an extra -1.

Ahh I see, I thought the negatives accumulated as the positives (every 10 turns).

The missionary has already moved 1 tile. I've been unable to have him go any further because the barbs were dancing around.

Anyhow, I've left home so the update comes tonight...

i was thinking the same as kossin, meaning:

you get a -2 immediately when adopting a diff. religion, then every 10 turns you get another -1 up to reaching the limit of -5.

so the max. should be, in my interpretion, -2 + -5 = -7, adding the holy city making it -8 (so -4 in 10 turns is right, but i would have calculated it differently, e.g. -2 at start, -1 after 10 turns and another -1 for the holy city)