We can get Aesth and Lit in 9 turns, even without any failure gold or more specs. Realistically it is probably 6 (including that we'll probably have a revolt to Caste in there). Boston will have 21 hpt, 42 with the marble bonus, so that's 15 [Edit: Alzheimer's starting a bit early--make that 8 or 9] turns to build the GLib. Nobody has Lit yet. I think we have a good shot at it.
On trades I would say take Cal or Constr in a trade if they become available (and pick up the minor techs at that point) for CoL.
So you are in favor of sending our galley west right now and taking our chances with the barbs? That's 2 for, 1 against. As for the paratroopers, didn't you read about my clever ploy above?
I'd like to get the Great Library, but not sure it's worth the gamble. Besides delaying bureaucracy and an extra anarchy turn it sets us back on the Liberalism race. So I will reluctantly caste my vote for CS.
btw, how do you use a Great Scientist for Liberalism? I've never managed to spend a GP on it.
Besides paratroopers, potentially we could use Great Artists to culture bomb into the mountains and with [captured] Great Wall, wouldn't any Barbs be teleported out?
hmmn, if this were practical it would be doable well before paratroopers. Maybe XCal's sneaky method is easier.
so, yes - exploration should be a priority; maybe even build a scout
================
Edit - cross post; replyed without seeing Xcal's
... I rarely take advantage of that--how many cities is that usually good for?
really depends on how much espionage you have, with our disadvantage not that many
of course, one key city could be enough
I often put all my espionage against my next target, eliminate them, and it was all to waste.
Plus we could probably use cat's vs our first target, so I'm ok with switching Esp to a later target or a team that might be around to the end and we want to influence civics...
Tech to Aesthetics? And see if anyone has Lit yet? Maybe start an Aesthetics wonder for fail gold?
I made a well-thought out and eloquently worded reply to all concerns... and the forum locked up when I submitted. So you'll get this crap post instead:
CoL will easily net Cal or Constr or both from a TEAM. From an individual civ its often enough. WFYBTA is a good argument not to trade for Med. It is a bad argument not to trade for Cal/Constr, though. Friendliness and forgetfullness mean the actual limit is not "fixed".
GWall/borderspread gambit is not likely to work across a mountain range. Try it yourself in WB and see. The other gambit, teleportation, is also not likely to work as Murphy's Law states quite clearly they will be sent where you'd least like them to go. Try it in WB and see. The fastest way to see the other side of the mountain is CS -> Paper and buy some maps. But I would send the galley. If a galley can find an opening, some other team will win this over us easily unless we find it too. Galleon would also be faster than Paras. So like the bear in the song, we need to see the other side of the mountain to see what we can see. I'd hate to have to wait all the way to Physics to see it with an airship.
GLib is for wonder-whores, and wonder-whore never win SGOTM's. It Lit was on our critical path or we trade for it somehow, then sure... it would pay off in a longer game. But we're going to win this before it would pay off, aren't we? 9 turn delay from critical path is too much. And if all we got for it was failure gold we'd really have shot ourselves in the foot.
HG should not be whipped... that's self-defeating way of saving one turn. The point of HG is to increase pop for whipping OTHER stuff (or using as specialists).
EP can stay where it is... on the closest civ. Its the only chance our meagre EP have of ever being useful. After coutrhouses we can re-evaluate if we need to see someone elses tech or demographics.
Those are my thoughts. Lets hope the forum accepts them.
I agree with kcd. Do not divert for wonders. Explore now. If we delay the revolution until after Hanging Gardens, we should definitely get a 2-for-1 with bureaucracy. Keep espionage on Asoka/Ragnar. Remember that tech trading is with teams, so we can get more than the usual ratio in trades.
Play ~10 turns. Stop before changing civics (unless directed otherwise). If we lose the Hanging Gardens, be sad but keep playing. I can play tonight (~9pm Eastern US) if given the green light.
City builds (no whipping):
Wash--scout(3), axe(7). Work spice when grow.
NY--archer(4), courthouse or military? Spy for India. Work quarry when grow.
Bos--aque(1), HG(5), worker? Chariot when we hook up horses?
Phil--scout(4?), archer(7). Work ivory when grow.
Atl--worker(3), galley
Chi--worker(5), granary
Sea--lighthouse
SF--monument(4), granary
LA--granary
Houston--granary I've stuck in a couple cheap scouts to be ferried by our northern galley. One will fogbust the NE England coast to prevent barb galley spam, the other can be carried by the galley and dropped off when needed to reveal more cities, etc.
Workers:
Farm when in doubt.
Mine the river grass hill by Wash/NY.
Road completed mine by Boston, pasture sheep.
Diplo:
No trades with Rag/Asoka.
Decline all wars.
Deny demands.
Trades:
Trade CoL at an appropriate time for Calendar, Construction, Metal Casting, PH, Aesthetics, etc., and gold. Do not trade for Meditation or Monotheism. If anybody gets Currency I may stop for discussion.
Techs:
Civil Service.
Civics:
No revolt until Civil Service. Shall I go ahead and revolt to Caste System and Bureau ASAP or pause for discussion and/or handoff?
Great people:
At current rate, next GP due in Wash in 18 turns, 75% Sci, 25% Eng. It'll come sooner when we run more specs.
Units:
Carefully move 2 warriors in the spoke a little farther out to fogbust, keeping to forests. Put a couple scouts, preceded by an archer if I can scrape one up, on the galley and then head west, leaving somebody on the NE of England to fogbust the coast and prevent barb galley spam. Yamps mentioned an exploring archer--have him try to find a mountain pass. Once we have horses hooked up we should build a chariot for exploration.
I can't imagine why we'd want to build scouts instead of spies???
The reason you should not revolt is that we don't want to upload the save while we are in revolution, where it's harder for us to make our next plans. The revolution is an obvious move, but the person who plays the next set can actually click the button.
Hmm, worth thinking about. Scouts are cheaper (15 vs 40 hammers) and faster (2 vs 1 movement). Spies can't be seen (so safe from barbs) but if detected in AI borders they can cause diplo unpleasantness. I think a fortified archer in England's unsettled NE ought to be pretty safe, and it's 5 fewer hammers than a spy. How about if I build a spy in NY after the archer that can be used to explore India?
I thought spies could only be detected in cities, and not on open terrain?
A significant advantage of a spy is that we can eventually use it on an espionage mission. As you note, we can also send a spy to Asoka and Ragnar's territory, where we don't have open borders. Scouts will be worthless soon, and will just have to be disbanded.
An archer for fogbusting is fine, it will eventually serve as a garrison.
A significant advantage of a spy is that we can eventually use it on an espionage mission. As you note, we can also send a spy to Asoka and Ragnar's territory, where we don't have open borders. Scouts will be worthless soon, and will just have to be disbanded.
True, spies will have additional future value. But so will archers, and sooner, since they can serve as cheap garrisons and for defense. Yes, scouts will soon be worthless for exploring unsettled land because of their vulnerability to barbs, but I was figuring to use them primarily for exploring settled land and revealing more cities for us to trade with. This will increasingly become the case as the AI expand and our galley slowly makes its way west. We'll soon be able to send out chariots (30 hammers vs 40 for spy, and twice as fast) to explore in both wild regions and settled areas to the south (where we don't have a galley); we really only need spies for peeking inside closed borders or possibly the Wizard's land if there's a way in.
Well, we definitely need a spy to explore Asoka/Ragnar, since they won't open borders. Beyond that, I'll leave it to you. Green light from me if you add a spy for A/R to the plan.
They can be detected in AI land, not only in cities. The chance is higher if we don't have open borders btw. Therefore, scouts are better if we don't have barb issues to get there.
And the chance is higher if they are in or next to a city or a spy. Posting defensive spies in cities and by borders where the enemy spies will be entering helps catch them.
I have OKs from all the active players other than kcd, and I'm following his suggestions in his latest post, so I'm assuming he'd give me a formal green. Forgive me for being presumptuous, but I'm playing now.
T108/175BC--Change builds in a couple places, change Boston gems to plains hill for extra hammers. Move Houston archer and warrior W.
IBT--WWN converts to Judaism, GWS converts to Christianity. Wash to pop 9, adds spice; NY to pop 7, adds quarry; Boston to pop 7, adds gems.
T109/150BC--Move Philly archer N-NW, move galley 1S. Move Houston archer and warrior W, etc. Dead [end] south of mountain range.
T110--Found Hastings. Philly grows to 7, adds ivory; Seattle grows to 2, adds crabs.
IBT--Southies will trade Calendar.
T111--Wash finishes scout, starts axe (5). NY finishes archer, starts spy(4). Atlanta finishes worker, starts galley (10). See an English settler and worker heading east, follow. Archer onto galley. Mansa will give PH, Mono, Cal, all gold (4) for Currency. Wait.
T112--Seattle grows to 3, adds grass cottage. Dump archer northish of barb Saxon. I decide to hook up a couple resources for possible trades. I'm going to come up 2 hammers short on finishing the HG in 5 turns--nothing I could have done better.
T113--Chicago finishes worker, starts granary. SF finishes monument, starts granary. Philly finishes scout, continues with archer. Atlanta grows to 5, adds grass hill (mine next turn). Houston grows to 2, adds pastured sheep.
T114--Hanging Gardens complete! We have enough workers now so I set Boston on a library(4). Wasn't keeping track of AI gold reserves but it looks like Rag and Asoka are up (70 and 80). Others have 0 to 40--pretty much no change. No changes in what the AI will trade us in techs: still no MC or Aesth. Hmm, although everyone still "Wants" Currency, Mansa won't give us anything for it now. Shaka will give us 40 (Mansa wouldn't because he has no gold). Looks like it's time to get something for it while we can. We now have 90 gold in the bank with 4gpt @ 0%. Other AIs will still give everything they have (little stuff plus a bit of gold) for either CoL or Currency so I wait.
Adjust all cities with their added pop, emphasizing food and commerce. Can't add specs anywhere. I whip a granary in Chicago since it has 8 extra food and only 3 hpt. Whip Seattle lighthouse (otherwise would be working 2 bare grass next turn).
T115/1 AD--NY finishes spy, starts courthouse (14). Philly finishes archer, starts courthouse (24). Chicago finishes granary, starts lighthouse (50). Seattle finishes lighthouse, starts courthouse (119). These are all tentative builds--I am stopping here for discussion. Galley is carrying 2 scouts, just reached English shore.
We can get CS in about 6 turns--might be time to build some gold. SW warriors are in position for fogbusting; I can bring the archer back a bit toward SF. We just got the NY spy--he'll take over a dozen turns by land to get to India. I should probably build a galley in Boston to ferry him over. Sorry, I'm too sleepy for pictures but will upload the save. FWIW, we are now 1st in score. No visible entrance to the mountains yet.
Upload log:
Spoiler:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 175 BC to 1 AD:
Turn 108, 175 BC: Good Witch of the South converts to Christianity!
Turn 108, 175 BC: Wicked Witch of the North converts to Judaism!
Turn 110, 125 BC: Wicked Witch of the North adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 112, 75 BC: You have trained a Scout in Philadelphia. Work has now begun on a Archer.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Atlanta has grown to size 5.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Houston has grown to size 2.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Washington will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Seattle will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 113, 50 BC: San Francisco will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Dorothy has completed The Hanging Gardens!
Turn 113, 50 BC: Good Witch of the West has founded Ahmedabad in a distant land.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Michael Faraday (Great Scientist) has been born in London (Good Witch of the North)!
Turn 113, 50 BC: Good Witch of the East has founded Kolhapur in a distant land.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Washington has grown to size 11.
Turn 114, 25 BC: New York has grown to size 8.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Boston has grown to size 8.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Philadelphia has grown to size 8.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Atlanta has grown to size 6.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Chicago has grown to size 4.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Chicago can hurry Granary for 2⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Seattle has grown to size 4.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Seattle can hurry Lighthouse for 1⇴ with 2ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 114, 25 BC: San Francisco has grown to size 3.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Los Angeles has grown to size 3.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Houston has grown to size 3.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Good Witch of the East has 80 gold available for trade.
Turn 114, 25 BC: The borders of Washington are about to expand.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Boston will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Philadelphia will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Chicago will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Seattle will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 114, 25 BC: The borders of Washington have expanded!
Turn 114, 25 BC: Wicked Witch of the South has founded Nongoma in a distant land.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Boston has grown to size 9.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Boston can hurry Library for 2⇴ with 31ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Philadelphia has grown to size 9.
Abject apologies on not cashing in Currency for Calendar, etc when we had the chance. I got greedy (didn't want to give Currency away too soon and figured other AI would soon be willing to trade good techs), waited, and somehow Mansa/Shaka nearly teched it in about 2 turns. Lesson learned.
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That's 2 for, 1 against. As for the paratroopers, didn't you read about my clever ploy above? 
my vote for CS. 
So you'll get this crap post instead:
but it looks like Rag and Asoka are up (70 and 80). Others have 0 to 40--pretty much no change. No changes in what the AI will trade us in techs: still no MC or Aesth. Hmm, although everyone still "Wants" Currency, Mansa won't give us anything for it now. Shaka will give us 40 (Mansa wouldn't because he has no gold). Looks like it's time to get something for it while we can. We now have 90 gold in the bank with 4gpt @ 0%. Other AIs will still give everything they have (little stuff plus a bit of gold) for either CoL or Currency so I wait.
