Stacks being damaged or destroyed when near enemy cities

EldrinFal · Oct 22, 2011

JosEPh_II said:
I had an Assassin Hiding on a hill with rocky outcropping next to an Australian city and I had to move him because of the damage he was taking.

I was waiting for the Settler in that city to finish as Curin was starting to crowd my border with new cities and I wanted to put a stop to it by assassinating his settler and guards.

I think Invisible units, since they are "special" units should be exempt from tower and pit damages. No matter if they are mine or AI.

JosEPh

I agree. If an invisible unit approaches a wall, the defenders wouldn't see them to attack. If they can't be immune due to coding issues, then make the chance extremely small.. like 1 in 20 at least. Invisible units are trained to avoid traps too, as Hydro said, so I think it can apply to all defensive structures.

Necratoid · Oct 22, 2011

If your buildings never go obsolete... then by modern age your going to have 6 towers doing damage, pit raps, mechanical trap, landmines... and more. So YES, math will kill all approaching troops outright. Then again all those outdated housing units are going to suck all the happy out of the city and make them toxic... that is ignoring the massive upkeep costs. :crazy eyes: basicallly that seems like a terrible idea to me.

In the end towers can't shoot continiously for decades at a time... so if they can't see the unit the towers can't be damaged by active defenses like towers unless your willing to constant risk cities obliterating their own terrian improments and risk reducing what survives into a blast crater filled desert. They got detectors in the city they can take those pot shots. You have a stealth unit on a tile where units are getting shot at anyway... your going to risk getting hit.

Though I suppose you could have a promotion (tree) that reduces or negates defensive fortification damage.

EldrinFal · Oct 22, 2011

Necratoid said:
If your buildings never go obsolete... then by modern age your going to have 6 towers doing damage, pit raps, mechanical trap, landmines... and more. So YES, math will kill all approaching troops outright. Then again all those outdated housing units are going to suck all the happy out of the city and make them toxic... that is ignoring the massive upkeep costs. :crazy eyes: basicallly that seems like a terrible idea to me.

In the end towers can't shoot continiously for decades at a time... so if they can't see the unit the towers can't be damaged by active defenses like towers unless your willing to constant risk cities obliterating their own terrian improments and risk reducing what survives into a blast crater filled desert. They got detectors in the city they can take those pot shots. You have a stealth unit on a tile where units are getting shot at anyway... your going to risk getting hit.

Though I suppose you could have a promotion (tree) that reduces or negates defensive fortification damage.

I believe an Upgraded building is supposed to replace it's predecessor. That means instead of a building just STOP working when you get a tech, it continues to work, sometimes at a worse benefit, until you upgrade it to the modern version.

Necratoid · Oct 22, 2011

Does that work with as the poster said... buildings go obsolete turned off? That was what I was responding to.

Thunderbrd · Oct 22, 2011

EldrinFal said:
I agree. If an invisible unit approaches a wall, the defenders wouldn't see them to attack. If they can't be immune due to coding issues, then make the chance extremely small.. like 1 in 20 at least. Invisible units are trained to avoid traps too, as Hydro said, so I think it can apply to all defensive structures.

After some consideration, this is my stance on the matter for now as well. Though, the only question on my mind there is what if there's a rogue or dog unit in the city that CAN see the 'inivisible' unit? Would it then be subject to attack by city defenses? If so, would that include traps, as we've isolated how good they are at getting around traps? Or can we say that as soon as seen, they wouldn't have the luxury to be cautious enough to get around said traps with such ease?

Anyhow, on the matter of the building obsoletion, what Eldrin was trying to say there matched, as well, what I was thinking. There's a difference now between obsoleting a building and upgrading/replacing the building. Most of the buildings on these defensive chains replace buildings which doesn't 'obsolete' them as a tech may but rather considers those buildings the same building but improved.

This means that even if obsoleting has been disabled, the pit traps shouldn't be active when a mechanical traps are built in the city. It hasn't been obsoleted, its been improved.

As designers, I think we're warming up more and more to the concept of upgrading buildings rather than obsoleting them. And this should get around the only problems I can think of with the theory of obsoleting buildings that would inspire one to turn the function off in the first place.

EldrinFal · Oct 24, 2011

Thunderbrd said:
After some consideration, this is my stance on the matter for now as well. Though, the only question on my mind there is what if there's a rogue or dog unit in the city that CAN see the 'inivisible' unit? Would it then be subject to attack by city defenses? If so, would that include traps, as we've isolated how good they are at getting around traps? Or can we say that as soon as seen, they wouldn't have the luxury to be cautious enough to get around said traps with such ease?
.

Spy/invis units spotted in your territory are automatically killed though aren't they? It's only when outside of cultural borders are they simply revealed.

Thunderbrd · Oct 24, 2011

EldrinFal said:
Spy/invis units spotted in your territory are automatically killed though aren't they? It's only when outside of cultural borders are they simply revealed.

Tell that to my rogues and ambushers who have been ravaging my enemies countryside, hiding in his cities whenever things get rough

He sees me with his dogs and rogues but can't attack me when I hide in his cities and leap out to ambush his units when they stand adjacent to them. Heh heh...

So yeah, if seen doesn't auto kill any normally hidden troops, just puts them in danger of attack if they aren't hiding in a city.

EldrinFal · Oct 24, 2011

Thunderbrd said:
Tell that to my rogues and ambushers who have been ravaging my enemies countryside, hiding in his cities whenever things get rough He sees me with his dogs and rogues but can't attack me when I hide in his cities and leap out to ambush his units when they stand adjacent to them. Heh heh...

So yeah, if seen doesn't auto kill any normally hidden troops, just puts them in danger of attack if they aren't hiding in a city.

Those are hidden nationality though right? Not invisible. (I might be remembering wrong though)

OR... maybe I'm just thinking of Espionage units. :mischief:

Koshling · Oct 24, 2011

Thunderbrd said:
Tell that to my rogues and ambushers who have been ravaging my enemies countryside, hiding in his cities whenever things get rough He sees me with his dogs and rogues but can't attack me when I hide in his cities and leap out to ambush his units when they stand adjacent to them. Heh heh...

So yeah, if seen doesn't auto kill any normally hidden troops, just puts them in danger of attack if they aren't hiding in a city.

I think this behaviour is bad (I guess it represents the unit 'hiding in amongst the population', but it's too easy to exploit. I would like to make a mechanic change that means any attempt by a hidden unit to move into an enemy city is considered to be an attack IF the unit is visible to that enemy at the time (regardless of whetehr the unit that sees it is itself in the city or not)

Thunderbrd · Oct 24, 2011

That's, I reluctantly admit, probably not a bad idea, but it could sure throw off the ability of a spy to ever get into a city... we'd have to figure out how to get the game to differentiate - even though our units themselves often encompass both espionage and hidden nationality/invisibility.

Retrospect · Oct 24, 2011

Koshling said:
I think this behaviour is bad (I guess it represents the unit 'hiding in amongst the population', but it's too easy to exploit. I would like to make a mechanic change that means any attempt by a hidden unit to move into an enemy city is considered to be an attack IF the unit is visible to that enemy at the time (regardless of whetehr the unit that sees it is itself in the city or not)

I have to agree, I don't like how they can absolutely ruin an AI civ. As a result I don't use them at all.

Is it possible to use the same system as spies. A chance that they may be discovered and either ejected from the city, or destroyed?

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 24, 2011

Koshling said:
I think this behaviour is bad (I guess it represents the unit 'hiding in amongst the population', but it's too easy to exploit. I would like to make a mechanic change that means any attempt by a hidden unit to move into an enemy city is considered to be an attack IF the unit is visible to that enemy at the time (regardless of whetehr the unit that sees it is itself in the city or not)

The AI does hide its rouges and warlords in forts, mine and theirs, so I can't attack them. Forts being the same as a city in this respect.

There are different types of invisibility. Changing the rules on one should not effect the others. In fact the spy does not use the invisible tags at all! So changing the rules based on the type of invisibility.

Code:

     		<Invisible>INVISIBLE_CAMOUFLAGE</Invisible>
		<SeeInvisible>INVISIBLE_CAMOUFLAGE</SeeInvisible>

Necratoid · Oct 24, 2011

I think your going into 'this idea needs to be beaten to death with a rock' territory.

Spy units have no HP... Theives, rogues, assassins, and the like are combat units with stealth. Your idea to make them die if they happen to have a dog... or a wretch battering ram anywhere in the area makes them useless.

Any idea which meakes a entire class of units completely useless for no reason, but the Great and Dread 'Because' needs to be vetoed preemtively.

Unless it has been removed as of v18 AI Civ stealth units often camp out in my cities and lie in wait. So the idea of making them useless because it doesn't do this is a malignant lie.

Koshling · Oct 26, 2011

Necratoid said:
I think your going into 'this idea needs to be beaten to death with a rock' territory.

Spy units have no HP... Theives, rogues, assassins, and the like are combat units with stealth. Your idea to make them die if they happen to have a dog... or a wretch battering ram anywhere in the area makes them useless.

Any idea which meakes a entire class of units completely useless for no reason, but the Great and Dread 'Because' needs to be vetoed preemtively.

Unless it has been removed as of v18 AI Civ stealth units often camp out in my cities and lie in wait. So the idea of making them useless because it doesn't do this is a malignant lie.

I agree - auto death would be a stupid mechanic. The problem mechanic for me is their ability to be entirely safe inside your town even if it is crawling with see invis units. The worst (from the invis unit's point of view) I would want to do is make it so that if it is visible and in a city (i.e. - some see invis unit of the city owner's team, can see it) it has a chance of being ejected from the city, whereupon it will probably get attacked, but should have no penalties in defending itself.

This should only apply to invisible COMBAT units (so not spies, which already have their own discovery mechanic)

EldrinFal · Oct 26, 2011

Koshling said:
I agree - auto death would be a stupid mechanic. The problem mechanic for me is their ability to be entirely safe inside your town even if it is crawling with see invis units. The worst (from the invis unit's point of view) I would want to do is make it so that if it is visible and in a city (i.e. - some see invis unit of the city owner's team, can see it) it has a chance of being ejected from the city, whereupon it will probably get attacked, but should have no penalties in defending itself.

This should only apply to invisible COMBAT units (so not spies, which already have their own discovery mechanic)

Maybe accomplish that via an Event? In some cases the unit escapes and maybe is sent outside cultural borders like Great Wall, or in other cases, they are caught, and a choice is given whether to...

1) Bribe the Unit : Pay X amt and the unit becomes yours.
2) Interrogate and Execute : + :espionage:

Thunderbrd · Oct 26, 2011

I like that Eldrin... wouldn't feel quite as irritating when it happens to you if it happens for you on occasion and when it does its nicer than just being now able to kill the enemy unit.

Stacks being damaged or destroyed when near enemy cities

EldrinFal

King

Necratoid

Warlord

EldrinFal

King

Necratoid

Warlord

Thunderbrd

C2C War Dog

EldrinFal

King

Thunderbrd

C2C War Dog

EldrinFal

King

Koshling

Vorlon

Thunderbrd

C2C War Dog

Retrospect

Warlord

Dancing Hoskuld

Deity

Necratoid

Warlord

Koshling

Vorlon

EldrinFal

King

Thunderbrd

C2C War Dog

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