Challenge-VI-07

While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.


Settings:

• Victory Condition: Conquest (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Monarch
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Continents
• Speed: Epic
• Required: Always War, No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
• Civ: England
• Opponents: Must include Babylon (Hammurabi), China (Mao Zedong), Greece (Alexander), Mali (Mansa Musa), Native America (Sitting Bull), Sumeria (Gilgamesh)
• Version: 3.19.003
• Date: 6th October 2011 to 6th February 2012

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

As (roughly) suggested by Ronald in the discussion thread.

Ozbenno said:

As (roughly) suggested by Ronald in the discussion thread.

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You made the game a lot harder than I intended it to be by selecting a weak early civ and some of the worst opponents for AW. Especially Sitting Bull and Mansa Musa are terrible early neighbours.
Mansa is the worst in my opinion:
If you have him on your continent, skirmishers are terrible to deal with. One skirmisher destroyed several times my captial defended by 2 warriors.
If he is not on the starting continent, he will be difficult to outtech.

This looks like a game where you want to draw Alexander and Mao on your continent with high seas. Quick kill Alexander first, then Mao. Then tech your brains out show up on the other continent with advanced units where being at war with everyone won't matter.

Epic, monarch should make this work. I like Elizabeth to bulb your way to rifles.

shulec said:

This looks like a game where you want to draw Alexander and Mao on your continent with high seas. Quick kill Alexander first, then Mao. Then tech your brains out show up on the other continent with advanced units where being at war with everyone won't matter.

Epic, monarch should make this work. I like Elizabeth to bulb your way to rifles.

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Mass bulbs w/o trades? I don't like it at all...I see some appeal with FIN for cottage play and I'd probably only bulb education to get oxford going sooner. Settle hill cities and get longbows ASAP and you can hold the AI off until whatever you want.

Counterintuitive, but churchill isn't a bad pick here at all. His archery units get scary quickly and he has an early boost which is no joke when you can't resource trade. Farm up 5-6 drill IV CG III combat GG longbows and upgrade them to redcoats for some offensive firepower.

Although I guess on a small continent with only 2 opponents you can easily pull the double chariot rush against pretty much anybody but mansa. A lot of the opponents are protective but on monarch it should still be doable, especially if you roll BFC horses and choke.

The hard part will be the other continent, which will probably have to be a razing spree since colonies go to war with you also...

I got a couple of games going for this challenge. The problem is that I inevitably go back to my builder mode.

The most recent game I built the Oracel, Gwall, Mids, GLib in the capital, The GLH in captured capital of Hammy (gone from the game) and about to finsh the Colosus in a secondary city.

I had 3 AI on the continent and Alex (got 4 cities and 5 workers) and Hammy (1 city and 4 workers)are dead. Gilga is being abused to a crazy extent so I can get a few GG. Got two so far and they are settled in the capital.

I have an academy in the capital and a shrine for judaism from the GP I got. The land is big and generous so I will win this.

Does anyone know what is a good date for a conquest game for AW?

Also like to advise to keep the starting warrior in the capital. I ended loosing about 7 awsome starts because of an ungarded capital.

My capital was nothing great. 1 each of gold, cow, corn and ivory. Did get horses in the BFC. But took a long time to develop it due to AI archers. Finally teched archary to get the site secured for a worker to build the pasture. After that founded 2 more cities before going on the offensive. However, I did send 2 warriors to greece and babylon to keep them under house arrest. Alex already had 3 cities but I was able to steal a worker each with the warrior.

Just got the Music artist and considering launching a GA to switching to several different civics or might build the MoM before doing so. There is a Scientist waiting around and he will be used to bulb Philo or Edu.

I think the way to go with this one is to use a "toroidal" world-wrap. According to "The Complete Guide to Map Creation" that will generate "4 continents every single time." With four continents, chances are we'll only have one AI on our continent to rush -- and sometimes even be blessed (or cursed) with an isolated start. Check out the sample maps here.

So, I'd suggest the best plan might be:

1. Liz with a quick rush against one opponent
2. Scientist bulbs to Astronomy, with "Financial" and "Philosophical" trait support
3. One by one invasions of each continent, culminating in Redcoats for the coup de grace?

Feels like kind of a let-down/work-around for the "always war" requirement, but I think it would be legal according to the HoF rules, right? (I've played lots of xotms, but I'm kind of new to the HoF forums.)

Balthalion said:

Feels like kind of a let-down/work-around for the "always war" requirement, but I think it would be legal according to the HoF rules, right? (I've played lots of xotms, but I'm kind of new to the HoF forums.)

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Yes, this is legal, refer to the rules for what options you can and can't use on legal map types.

Problem with this approach is having to invade 3 continents rather than 1. Would take longer but I guess you get more time not being harrassed to prepare.

Ozbenno said:

Yes, this is legal, refer to the rules for what options you can and can't use on legal map types.

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Thanks for the reply. I did see the rules but I wanted to make sure I was interpreting them correctly.

Ozbenno said:

Problem with this approach is having to invade 3 continents rather than 1. Would take longer but I guess you get more time not being harrassed to prepare.

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I haven't actually played this one out yet, but I remember playing an Always War GOTM some time ago and finding the harassment to be, well, more than distracting to say the least. Without that pressure for unit production, I suspect great people and certain key wonders will be easier to crank out faster. I wonder, too, if having three continents to invade will really slow things down much? Coastal cities are often easier to attack if you have the sea power to ferry units quickly, and with smaller continents I'm guessing there will be fewer non-coastal cities to capture? Won't separating the AI with oceans also keep their tech rate down because of having fewer trades available, at least until optics? If so, that could make any potential "technology gap" start wider and last longer than it might with only one other continent.

Of course, this is all just hot air until I can find some time to actually test the ideas. How far apart are the four continents in a toroidal setup, anyway?

Balthalion said:

........
Of course, this is all just hot air until I can find some time to actually test the ideas. How far apart are the four continents in a tyroidal setup, anyway?

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I do not know if it was a fluke, but, the 2 BOTM's we had with this wrap had high maintanance cost at 4 cities. So you may not want this.

Watch out for Bowman and harras the AI with your first built warrior and next 2-3 archers. Keep the first warrior in the city and the harrasing units on hills and forest/jungles. AI wont develop well. Oracle Construction to kill off about 2 AI very early.

Its due to how distance maintance is calculated. Ie on most maps its like this, Flat the max distance between cities is NE - SW corner, on Cylindrical its NE-S, on Toroidal its NE-Center. So on Toroidal the maintance for distance is twice that of Flat, with Cylindrical being somewhere between.

Htadus said:

I do not know if it was a fluke, but, the 2 BOTM's we had with this wrap had high maintanance cost at 4 cities. So you may not want this.

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I see you got at finish in the 1300s. Congratulations! I assume that was with normal (cylindrical) continents? It beat my date (1680) by a mile. I fear my poor skills are probably more to blame than the toroidal setup tho... One thing I can say is that going with the toroidal set-up certainly changed the "feeling" of the game. Once the initial rushes were done, the rest of it was a pure "builder" game aimed at launching overseas invasions.

Habitus said:

Its due to how distance maintance is calculated. Ie on most maps its like this, Flat the max distance between cities is NE - SW corner, on Cylindrical its NE-S, on Toroidal its NE-Center. So on Toroidal the maintance for distance is twice that of Flat, with Cylindrical being somewhere between.

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Thanks for the detailed explanation. I did run into high maintenance problems, but mostly I think the issue was really just my poor empire-management skills. I'm sure a better player could improve the date immensely.

Highlights from my first attempt:
I started with Elizabeth on what turned out to be the largest of the four "toroidal islands" (NW corner) with Hammurabi and Sitting Bull as neighbors. 1 Gold, 1 Corn, 1 Cow in the BFC. Horses were five tiles away and not in the greatest location -- City #2 went on top of the horses because of pressure from Hammurabi's wandering archers. (Probably should have ditched the game at that point, but I was curious to see how the whole "toroidal" thing would work. ) First choked then rushed both of my neighbors with chariots. Kept both capitals and an additional city from Sitting Bull. Added one more city to get Marble, for a total of six -- and began to notice the whole the city maintenance problem. Worked my way through it, but I'm sure that could have been managed much better. Got Oracle, Parthenon, & eventually Pyramids as a kind of afterthought. The Oracle was a mixed blessing, as I got hit with no fewer than three Great Prophets for my first three great people. Then came a long period of building. Practically no pressure from barbs, despite having only settled about half the continent. Didn't even hook up metal until very late -- only warriors in cities with a few chariots to keep the barbs at bay and steal workers from their settled cities. Invaded the SW island (Mansa & Mao) first with Trebs and Knights. Botched the fighting somewhat though. Later invaded the NE island with Trebs and Grenadiers. The SE island was empty with just a few small islands and some barbs. The other "islands" were all pretty close... just a 2 turn journey to the southern island with galleons (+1 from circumnavigate bonus) and a 3 turn journey to the eastern islands. The SW island had only 2 or three non-coastal cities and the NE island had only 1.

Things to remember for the next attempt:

• Limit initial expansion to only 4 cities until economy is secure.
• Get at least two food, one commerce, and horses in the BFC.
• Try for (at least) two neighbors & grab their capitals. Raise non-optimal cities.
• Get access to marble from somewhere.
• Use Pyramids to solve happiness problems in the early game.
• Don't poison the GS gene pool with Oracle

Experimental Ideas to try?

• Maybe add leaders to crowd the other islands and provide another fat capital to poach nearby? Perhaps Monte, GK, & Gandhi to try to encourage infighting on the other islands before the English arrive?
• Anyone have any other suggestions or advice?

Balthalion said:

I see you got at finish in the 1300s. Congratulations! Thank you but can be improved. This is the first time I really used cuirassas. They are impressive. So not many cats next time.I assume that was with normal (cylindrical) continents? YesIt beat my date (1680) by a mile. I fear my poor skills are probably more to blame than the toroidal setup tho...I would disagree. You had a uphill battle. One thing I can say is that going with the toroidal set-up certainly changed the "feeling" of the game. Once the initial rushes were done, the rest of it was a pure "builder" game aimed at launching overseas invasions.I went builder mode the moment the Alex and Hammy was dead and had Gilga on the defense

snip

Highlights from my first attempt:
I started with Elizabeth on what turned out to be the largest of the four "toroidal islands" I found it easier with having just 2 continents, Kill 3 or 4 AI's before having to do naval attack...........
The Oracle was a mixed blessing, as I got hit with no fewer than three Great Prophets for my first three great people. What did you Oracle? I got construction and 2 GP's; ...............
Later invaded the NE island with Trebs and Grenadiers. Can't remember exactly but I had MT before Astro and then to Chem and Steel. I was a turn away from Rifle at the end.

Things to remember for the next attempt:
Don't worry about the GP's and build the Oracle. I ran 4 GA's back to back with the Marble boosted Taj

Experimental Ideas to try?

• Anyone have any other suggestions or advice?

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If you did not last time, Oracle Construction, it boost the offensive that much. It was better than the CS sling I did in my firdt try which I abandoned.

Htadus said:

I found it easier with having just 2 continents, Kill 3 or 4 AI's before having to do naval attack...........

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Alas, it looks like you are probably right about this. Maybe the toroidal setup would be a better choice at a higher difficulty level? I'll probably beat my head against the wall once or twice more before giving up on the idea entirely though. That maintenance thing is a pain...

Balthalion said:

Alas, it looks like you are probably right about this. Maybe the toroidal setup would be a better choice at a higher difficulty level? I'll probably beat my head against the wall once or twice more before giving up on the idea entirely though. That maintenance thing is a pain...

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On monarch/epic couldn't you roll a commerce start, put out some axes to kill the (very few) neighbors, and still pick up something like code of laws from oracle?

I guess with monarch you can just roflstomp a much larger continent though...hell if you get a lucky-ish 2 continent draw and BFC horse it's conceivable to wipe a continent with chariots, let alone horse archers (I like chariots here despite starting techs, because babylon and NA are both weaker to them than axes making only mali/greek truly problematic, but the latter only with metal in time which on epic isn't likely).

Then it becomes a game of "get astro and raze the other continent". Maybe use cuirasser for that?

TheMeInTeam said:

On monarch/epic couldn't you roll a commerce start, put out some axes to kill the (very few) neighbors, and still pick up something like code of laws from oracle?

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Yes. Htadus said he was able to get Construction from Oracle and I've even managed to get Machinery without trying too hard.

TheMeInTeam said:

I guess with monarch you can just roflstomp a much larger continent though... Then it becomes a game of "get astro and raze the other continent". Maybe use cuirasser for that?

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This is the bigger advantage to the regular two-continent setup, I think. Monarch/Epic just makes it too easy to choke and rush to make the toroidal setup pay off in terms of finish date. I still consider the toroidal setup to be the easier game to play for anyone who is just looking for a win on this one though.

I also suspect that a truly excellent player might be able to use Oracle and bulbs on a toroidal setup to get very early Astro and stomp the other continents with only knights and trebs, but that seems beyond my humble ability... so far at least!

Balthalion said:

Alas, it looks like you are probably right about this. Maybe the toroidal setup would be a better choice at a higher difficulty level? I'll probably beat my head against the wall once or twice more before giving up on the idea entirely though. That maintenance thing is a pain...

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I would consider, based on what Habitus said and level based mainatanance, the maintanance will get worst with the higher difficulty level. The real trick is to send pillage party. 1 archer per civ completely mess them up.

TheMeInTeam said:

On monarch/epic couldn't you roll a commerce start, put out some axes to kill the (very few) neighbors, and still pick up something like code of laws from oracle?I was able to Oracle CS on my first game with 2 gold and rice capital. It had 5 FP's. But it delayed sending out cat powered attack parties

I guess with monarch you can just roflstomp a much larger continent though...hell if you get a lucky-ish 2 continent draw and BFC horse it's conceivable to wipe a continent with chariots, let alone horse archers (I like chariots here despite starting techs, because babylon and NA are both weaker to them than axes making only mali/greek truly problematic, but the latter only with metal in time which on epic isn't likely).There is no real rush at this level to finish off the AI since they can provide more cities. On my first game I ended with 21 cities on the original continent and only 5 built by my self. I had all the techs I needed including MT anf GP. And I rarely use the whip/nationalism. I bet you can achieve better results.

Then it becomes a game of "get astro and raze the other continent". Maybe use cuirasser for that?

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It was always about getting astro asap . Cuirassers were the cherry on top.

rolfstomp?

There is an incentive to hurry to kill the AI though; as long as you avoid tanking economically you can manage the land MUCH better than the AI...

TheMeInTeam said:

There is an incentive to hurry to kill the AI though; as long as you avoid tanking economically you can manage the land MUCH better than the AI...

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True, but it is the tanking of the economy that does not happen as you take the good cities and leave the new cities for the AI to grow and develop for you that help the process to speed up both in science and power. In the mean while your advanced units keep on getting promoted.

This one proved difficult for me. A lot of experimentation needed before getting settings I could make work. Ended up with low seas to give me some time before the enemy is on me, and had to get lucky with only one AI on my continent.

Things I learned:
1) scouting enemy archers/bowmen/skirmishers will attack your city if it only has one warrior defending. They will not enter your borders if you have 2 warriors defending.

2) don't scout with optics until you are ready to open a can of whoopin'. Once you declare war on them they start making your life harder.

3) don't try to make a beachhead until you have first razed all the coastal cities. You can only hold it until the other civs get their stack there. Raze, evacuate, heal on ship, and repeat while you build another stack to do the same.

4) Mansa should be crippled first... requires some luck in map draw.

4) if you get bogged down anyhow... just nuke everything. Twice.



77 nuclear explosions later, you get a victory in about 1996AD.

Took me several tries here... had a number where I was killed in the first 20 turns. Had more that went quite a ways but after brutal battles to win my continent was too far behind. Mansa should be crippled first. Fun, but tiring.