ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Agreed. Quick tests on my test game save file showed this works better. Mine hill for two turns, then farm corn. Not sure what is optimal for the worker to do after that.
SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Agreed. Quick tests on my test game save file showed this works better. Mine hill for two turns, then farm corn. Not sure what is optimal for the worker to do after that.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Thanks, Chris. Ref post now updated with latest test gave and WB save. Yes, AAA is strongly encouraged 
to play with the test game in order to optimize his PPP. Assuming that getting the corn farmed ASAP is better than finishing the mine (a conclusive demonstration of this would be welcome, though--Xpost with Chris--let's consider it proven), I think the main item yet to be decided is our next tech after Agriculture. DH and I vote for BW. AAA suggested Wheel. Others?
to play with the test game in order to optimize his PPP. Assuming that getting the corn farmed ASAP is better than finishing the mine (a conclusive demonstration of this would be welcome, though--Xpost with Chris--let's consider it proven), I think the main item yet to be decided is our next tech after Agriculture. DH and I vote for BW. AAA suggested Wheel. Others?
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Bronze working. We need to follow Saruman's advice:
Fast workers for the win.
And just to be sure it is understood, the expectation is that AAA will play his entire turnset at least once all the way through, hopefully more than once, using the test game file. Only after he is sure everything is planned correctly (and gets a green light) should he play using the official save file.
Off to the airport, will be online for the next 8 days, but no access to a Windows box with Civ on it.
Fast workers for the win.
And just to be sure it is understood, the expectation is that AAA will play his entire turnset at least once all the way through, hopefully more than once, using the test game file. Only after he is sure everything is planned correctly (and gets a green light) should he play using the official save file.
Off to the airport, will be online for the next 8 days, but no access to a Windows box with Civ on it.
AAA
Warlord
Thanks for the vote of confidence, and yes I can play very fast games, but I play a much more intuitive style and only do occasional rough calculations in my head. I have limited experience being this rigorous with a game start and analysis ----- SOOOOOO, if it alright we you guys, I think I'll follow your lead here and make crazy suggestions about my gut later on, on issues that defy calculation
.Thanks for the information ChrisShaffer
3. There are two logs.
The BUFFY log is enabled by using CTRL-ALT-O (that's an oh, not a zero) and then go to the Logging screen. You can specify the log folder path. If you don't specify, you will find it at C:\Documents and Settings\[username]\My Documents\Beyond the Sword\Autolog\Gandhi.txt. Please test this using a different game with the BUFFY Mod enabled. Make sure it works before you play the real game. The file created is plain text and you can just copy/paste it into the forums.
The CivFanatics log is created on the web site when you upload your file. You just copy the text and paste it into the forum. It does have some good information, including detailed combat logs, but it's nowhere near as useful as the BUFFY Mod.
4. Remember to set Autosave to every turn. Open C:\Documents and Settings\[username]\My Documents\Beyond the Sword\CivlizationIV.ini and set AutoSaveInterval=1 and MaxAutoSaves=99.
That is exactly the sort of information that I needed, and please on technical issues you CAN NOT over estimate my incompetence
. So please keep the suggestions coming.Also thanks for the test game saves I'll play around with the saves for a day or two (and see that I've got the technical issues straightened out) and report back my opinion.
Thanks everyone for your patience as I climb the steep newbie curve
.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
It's better to post a partial plan and get feedback as you develop it, rather than going away for a day or two preparing a finished plan. We aren't patient enough to wait a whole day!
Trystero
Deity
The spreadsheet should be available here.
Anyone can view it, but you need to be logged in to edit the spreadsheet. Please PM me your email if you want to be added for editing. If we want to make it completely private (only those who send me their email would be able to view), I can change settings accordingly.
I've input the most recent values, from the screenshots, but I'm at work so somebody should double check those.
Edit: I agree with BW after Agriculture
Anyone can view it, but you need to be logged in to edit the spreadsheet. Please PM me your email if you want to be added for editing. If we want to make it completely private (only those who send me their email would be able to view), I can change settings accordingly.
I've input the most recent values, from the screenshots, but I'm at work so somebody should double check those.
Edit: I agree with BW after Agriculture
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Trystero's spreadsheet is now linked in the Reference post under Test Maps and Spreadsheets. I've also updated and clumsily renamed the "Rules, Logs, PPPs, and Reports" section---AAA (and everyone else), please let me know if you have suggestions for additions and clarifications. Sounds like a strong preference for BW after Agri.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, and yes I can play very fast games, but I play a much more intuitive style and only do occasional rough calculations in my head. I have limited experience being this rigorous with a game start and analysis ----- SOOOOOO, if it alright we you guys, I think I'll follow your lead here and make crazy suggestions about my gut later on, on issues that defy calculation
Thanks for the information ChrisShaffer
3. There are two logs.
The BUFFY log is enabled by using CTRL-ALT-O (that's an oh, not a zero) and then go to the Logging screen. You can specify the log folder path. If you don't specify, you will find it at C:\Documents and Settings\[username]\My Documents\Beyond the Sword\Autolog\Gandhi.txt. Please test this using a different game with the BUFFY Mod enabled. Make sure it works before you play the real game. The file created is plain text and you can just copy/paste it into the forums.
The CivFanatics log is created on the web site when you upload your file. You just copy the text and paste it into the forum. It does have some good information, including detailed combat logs, but it's nowhere near as useful as the BUFFY Mod.
4. Remember to set Autosave to every turn. Open C:\Documents and Settings\[username]\My Documents\Beyond the Sword\CivlizationIV.ini and set AutoSaveInterval=1 and MaxAutoSaves=99.
That is exactly the sort of information that I needed, and please on technical issues you CAN NOT over estimate my incompetence
Also thanks for the test game saves I'll play around with the saves for a day or two (and see that I've got the technical issues straightened out) and report back my opinion.
Thanks everyone for your patience as I climb the steep newbie curve
I followed those instructions of Chris... and they do not work for me if I cut/paste the path into the path. You gotta type it. So checking on a test game that it works was very useful for me. Here it is my 9th SGOTM and I finally (think) I have the BUFFY log working. Amazing... I learn something every game, that's for sure.
Good discussion, guys. My initial reaction to the "finish the mine" suggestion was the same as Rustens. Glad you guys worked it out without my having to do any math.
I'm good with the plan. I also agree that BW would be more immediately useful than roads. I could say that our worker will be doing other stuff (farming/mining) so cutting trees could wait a little bit. Maybe we should think about PH first or something else like ? pottery for granery and writing pre-req.... I still believe the AP will be big this game and sooner we get it the better.... but I'm ok with BW. Just throwing it out there. Think outside the box. OK... time to go back into my box.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
We need to Rex. Cutting trees should be higher priority than mining.
SteelHorse
Deity
A few quick comments/questions:
Bronze after Agri - yes. Chopping and whipping will come soon.
The thought of pairing the exploring warriors is:
1. Eliminate double attack risk where one animal wounds and a second kills the warrior.
2. If one warrior is killed, second can kill the attacker.
Test game walk through with plan is encouraged to get move timing correct.
Questions:
Stop after Bronze?
Stop if another AI is met?
Immediate flip to Slavery?
Is there a view on a worker steal if the option presents itself?
Do we have sample PPP that we want to use as a style-guide?
Bronze after Agri - yes. Chopping and whipping will come soon.
The thought of pairing the exploring warriors is:
1. Eliminate double attack risk where one animal wounds and a second kills the warrior.
2. If one warrior is killed, second can kill the attacker.
Test game walk through with plan is encouraged to get move timing correct.
Questions:
Stop after Bronze?
Stop if another AI is met?
Immediate flip to Slavery?
Is there a view on a worker steal if the option presents itself?
Do we have sample PPP that we want to use as a style-guide?
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
There are two sample plans lined in Xc #2 post in this thread. Either style is fine. The main thing is the content.
Definitely stop at Bronze Working, maybe before that. We haven't even researched Agriculture yet. Turn set should be 10-15 turns or so
Definitely stop at Bronze Working, maybe before that. We haven't even researched Agriculture yet. Turn set should be 10-15 turns or so
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
and 3: If we steal a worker, there will be two warriors to protect it.
I'd guess we'll want to stop before BW is done--certainly there will be a pause or two in there from meeting another AI or scoping out Toku's land. I'd love to (have somebody else decide it's safe to) try a worker steal, but there's no way to predict when/if that'll happen, and we'll definitely have to stop to talk about it before trying.
On the PPP, as Chris said, my examples were mostly to show what kind of info we're looking for, but if someone has an awesome format or template please share. (I should trawl old SGOTM threads but I'm lazy.)
Are we still trying to decide something that has to be decided in the next 10-15 turns?
I see the point of BW after agri to chop out the second settler and or more workers.
Worker starts on corn at first opportunity.
Do we save any time waiting until we are pop3 to start the settler, or is it quicker to start at pop2? Maybe you guys already answered that question by testing or by math? I did some tests that show settler is ready 3t sooner by doing at pop2. The only difference is that we have one more warrior. Is delaying a settler 3t worth getting another warrior? Probably not. Note, delay another 3t and do settler at pop4 we have 2warriors. Again, not a good trade.
If we accept this answer to that question, I think we are ready to summarize the outcome of discussion into a PPP (anybody can do this, doesn't need to be active player) for teammates to approve.
I'd suggest:
If that's the plan, you don't need to wait for me to chime back and approve it. AAA is absolutely essential to agree to this or offer alternative actions.
I see the point of BW after agri to chop out the second settler and or more workers.
Worker starts on corn at first opportunity.
Do we save any time waiting until we are pop3 to start the settler, or is it quicker to start at pop2? Maybe you guys already answered that question by testing or by math? I did some tests that show settler is ready 3t sooner by doing at pop2. The only difference is that we have one more warrior. Is delaying a settler 3t worth getting another warrior? Probably not. Note, delay another 3t and do settler at pop4 we have 2warriors. Again, not a good trade.
If we accept this answer to that question, I think we are ready to summarize the outcome of discussion into a PPP (anybody can do this, doesn't need to be active player) for teammates to approve.
I'd suggest:
If that's the plan, you don't need to wait for me to chime back and approve it. AAA is absolutely essential to agree to this or offer alternative actions.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Last thing we heard from AAA was that he was going to go away and cogitate on it and come back "in a day or two" with a plan.
If we are not growing to pop 3 before building the settler, I would rather have the worker:
* mine hill 2 turns, cancel
* farm corn
* farm floodplain
* finish mine
If we build worker -> settler, doesn't that mean one of the SE warriors has to turn around to escort the settler? Wouldn't it be better to build an escort warrior and grow to pop 3? Or is the choice between worker -> warrior -> settler (pop 2) vs. worker -> warrior x2 -> settler (pop 3)? Basically, I'd like to be sure we build an escort for the settler, so we don't have to turn around one of our exploring warriors to serve escort duty.
If we are not growing to pop 3 before building the settler, I would rather have the worker:
* mine hill 2 turns, cancel
* farm corn
* farm floodplain
* finish mine
If we build worker -> settler, doesn't that mean one of the SE warriors has to turn around to escort the settler? Wouldn't it be better to build an escort warrior and grow to pop 3? Or is the choice between worker -> warrior -> settler (pop 2) vs. worker -> warrior x2 -> settler (pop 3)? Basically, I'd like to be sure we build an escort for the settler, so we don't have to turn around one of our exploring warriors to serve escort duty.
OK. Looking at the time stamp that was less than 20hrs ago. We're not pressed for deadline, either, so its good if he gets some sleep.
Definitely agree with settler right after worker. Want that gold ASAP.
I think the answer to whether it's better to farm FP before finishing mine comes down to whether it saves a turn on the settler or not. If the settler is out a turn early with the hill mined it's definitely better to mine.
I think the answer to whether it's better to farm FP before finishing mine comes down to whether it saves a turn on the settler or not. If the settler is out a turn early with the hill mined it's definitely better to mine.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
A lot of what we do will be affected by what our exploring units find. Do we have copper? If so, a worker steal looks more attractive because we can defend ourselves. Will there be an opportunity for a worker steal? How long before our eastern warriors have to turn back? If not long, then we don't need to bother building another warrior to escort our settler. Etc....
I do like the idea of getting another settler out quickly.
I do like the idea of getting another settler out quickly.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
That will take some testing. Anyone want to play the test game and figure out if mine first is faster? If it doesn't speed up the settler, farm on floodplain first is the way to go.
If we are going worker -> settler, we are committing to have one of the SE exploring warriors return to escort the settler. That's OK with me, but I want to be sure everyone is on board with that.
I think we need to know where the copper is. We also need to chop trees. I think bronze working is more important than pasturing the sheep. If REX is our goal, we need to chop out settlers and more workers. And at worst, the worker can mine the gold while we wait for animal husbandry to come in. I still vote Agriculture -> Bronze Working -> Animal Husbandry.
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