SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Thanks, Xcal. I'll take a look and post a plan later today (after I run some errands). I will try to get the spreadsheet up to date, as well.

I've done a little testing. Bollywood building FW --> warrior --> warrior lets it grow to pop 3 with perfect timing before starting a settler. If we settle as planned and start a monument, mining the gold (but working the unpastured sheep until the gold mine is done), working that mine while pasturing the sheep, and then working the sheep gets us BW on T44 with 6 beaker overflow. We also grow to pop2 on T44 and finish the monument on T45. Obviously we should check how that compares with pasturing first.

FWIW, in that game, Great Wall went on T52, Oracle on 59, and Henge on 60. There was also some crazy message about somebody getting circumnavigation.

I ran a few tests, and the plan I liked best was very similar to Xcal's:

T33: Research BW, worker moves to gold, settler moves 1SE>1NE, Guru moves 1NE, Lotus moves 1N onto hill, Drona moves 1NW
T34: Settler moves 1NE, Dehli founded (builds Monument, works sheep tile)
T35: Worker arrives at gold, starts mining. Slider to 0%
T36: Worker #2 finished, moves 1W, starts mining. Bollywood builds a warrior
T37: GH mine finished in Bollywood
T38: Worker #2 moves 1N, mines GH. Gold mine finished. Delhi works gold mine. Slider to 100%.
T39: Worker #1 moves to sheep, starts pasture
T40: Bollywood grows to pop 3, works corn farm, FP farm, and mined GH. Warrior (Deva) finished, moves to marble to fogbust (?). Bollywood starts a warrior. Worker #2 finishes mining 2nd GH in Bollywood
T42: Worker #2 moves 1W and starts mining 3rd GH in Bollywood (?). Sheep pasture complete. Work gold mine 1 more turn.
T43: Bollywood grows to pop 4, works corn farm, FP farm, and 2 mined GHs. Warrior (Om) finished in Bollywood, starts settler. Delhi works sheep pasture. Worker #1 free to move
T44: BW complete. Switch to Slavery.
T45: Delhi whips Monument with 26 hammer overflow.
T46: Bollywood can whip settler for 2 pop with 9 hammer overflow. Worker #2 free to move.

I plan to pause when BW is done, but I included a few more turns to show when whips would come into play. I am not great at worker micro, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

I always create the WorldBuilder file at 4000BC and then play the game, duplicating the things that happened and editing as I go along to make things match.

Trystero said:

I ran a few tests, and the plan I liked best was very similar to Xcal's:

T33: Research BW, worker moves to gold, settler moves 1SE>1NE, Guru moves 1NE, Lotus moves 1N onto hill, Drona moves 1NW
T34: Settler moves 1NE, Dehli founded (builds Monument, works sheep tile)
T35: Worker arrives at gold, starts mining. Slider to 0%
T36: Worker #2 finished, moves 1W, starts mining. Bollywood builds a warrior
T37: GH mine finished in Bollywood
T38: Worker #2 moves 1N, mines GH. Gold mine finished. Delhi works gold mine. Slider to 100%.
T39: Worker #1 moves to sheep, starts pasture
T40: Bollywood grows to pop 3, works corn farm, FP farm, and mined GH. Warrior (Deva) finished, moves to marble to fogbust (?). Bollywood starts a warrior. Worker #2 finishes mining 2nd GH in Bollywood
T42: Worker #2 moves 1W and starts mining 3rd GH in Bollywood (?). Sheep pasture complete. Work gold mine 1 more turn.
T43: Bollywood grows to pop 4, works corn farm, FP farm, and 2 mined GHs. Warrior (Om) finished in Bollywood, starts settler. Delhi works sheep pasture. Worker #1 free to move
T44: BW complete. Switch to Slavery.
T45: Delhi whips Monument with 26 hammer overflow.
T46: Bollywood can whip settler for 2 pop with 9 hammer overflow. Worker #2 free to move.

I plan to pause when BW is done, but I included a few more turns to show when whips would come into play. I am not great at worker micro, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

Sounds good. I assume you did a comparison to pasturing the sheep before mining the gold. How does that work out?

You'll need to add pause conditions, too. The one I can think of that might come up is if war is declared against us.

Trystero said:

T42: Worker #2 moves 1W and starts mining 3rd GH in Bollywood (?). Sheep pasture complete. Work gold mine 1 more turn.
T43: Bollywood grows to pop 4, works corn farm, FP farm, and 2 mined GHs. Warrior (Om) finished in Bollywood, starts settler. Delhi works sheep pasture. Worker #1 free to move
T44: BW complete. Switch to Slavery.
T45: Delhi whips Monument with 26 hammer overflow.
T46: Bollywood can whip settler for 2 pop with 9 hammer overflow. Worker #2 free to move.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I did exactly the same thing through T41 (although I sent the T40 warrior NW to block Hammygawa--depends what he's up to and where Drona is). Nice overflow on the Delhi monument whip--I chopped a forest to finish it but the whip might be better, especially if we put the overflow toward a FW. Oooh, and then the chop could go toward the FW, too. But then we lose the gold mine for a few turns, hurting research. Might not be worth it since we won't have Wheel yet and the FW's won't have much to do other than chop--but maybe we'll want barracks, or there will be some copper to mine? Eh, that's all after BW is done so I shouldn't speculate.

The Bollywood worker's actions after T41 depend on where we plan to send the imminent settler. I sent him up to the deer/gold region (settled SW of the gold) and had the worker make a farm up there (for growth prior to getting deer in the BFC) and then do some chops. But we could also settle west by the gems, south to get the fish, NE to get the deer and cows, or way up NW to get the wheat and block Hammygawa. I liked the NW deer/gold because much of its BFC (if we settle SW of the gold) is already covered by Bollywood's culture, giving us more tiles to choose from at the start (and we could pre-make a farm for growth). We could get the deer in the inner square by settling elsewhere, but we don't have Hunting yet and the BFCs for that didn't look as good to me. I think we need to decide on a settling location before Trys starts, unless we're willing to pause a couple turns before BW is finished (which events may make us do anyway).

Other pauses: meeting new AI, seeing stack of doom, worker steal opportunity.

Unable to review plan, but looks ok to me. Don't wait on my green light.

Fine with me for Trystero to play until tr settler is built and then stop to have the dotmap discussion

Plan looks good.

I like the gem city as the 3rd. The worker could start roading that direction if that is the choice.

Good luck Trystero.

In my tests I didn't get Wheel until T49. One other advantage of the NW deer/gold site is that it doesn't need a road to be connected for trade (provided our cultural territory is contiguous or we have Sailing).

So far everybody (5 of 5) likes the plan to T42, but to continue to BW at T44 we'll need to pick the City3 location, otherwise the Bolly worker won't know what to do. How about if Trystero adds the suggested STOP conditions and plans to play no farther than T42 before pausing? Trys, are you OK with that? The alternative is to pick the city site now so you can (potentially) continue all the way to BW. That choice needs considerable thought and testing, though, I think.

I have no problem with a pause to consider city placement after we get more information. I'll need to run a test of pasturing the sheep before mining the gold, as well. Let me try that and post a more formal PPP with the suggested pause conditions.

Also, where we settle might be greatly influenced by the presence of copper, so we might need to reconsider our options when BW is complete.

Trystero said:

Also, where we settle might be greatly influenced by the presence of copper, so we might need to reconsider our options when BW is complete.

Click to expand...

Duh, right. All the more reason to get BW ASAP, which I think gold-mine-first does, but good to check.

OK - I ran a test with pasturing the sheep first. This gets us BW 1 turn later:

Pasture sheep first:
T33: Research BW, worker moves to sheep, settler moves 1SE>1NE, Guru moves 1NE, Lotus moves 1N onto hill, Drona moves 1NW
T34: Settler moves 1NE, Dehli founded (builds Monument, works sheep tile)
T35: Worker arrives at sheep, starts pasture. Slider to 0%
T36: Worker #2 finished, moves 1W, starts mining. Bollywood builds a warrior
T37: GH mine finished in Bollywood
T38: Worker #2 moves 1N, mines GH. Sheep pasture finished. Slider to 100%.
T39: Worker #1 moves to gold.
T40: Bollywood grows to pop 3, works corn farm, FP farm, and mined GH. Warrior (Deva) finished, moves to marble to fogbust (?). Bollywood starts a warrior (or settler, done on t48?). Delhi grows to pop 2. Works sheep pasture and unimproved gold. Worker #1 starts mining gold in Delhi.
T42: Worker #2 finishes mining 2nd GH in Bollywood. Worker #2 moves 1W and starts mining 3rd GH in Bollywood (?)
T43: Bollywood grows to pop 4, works corn farm, FP farm, and 2 mined GHs. Warrior finished in Bollywood, starts settler. Gold mine finished in Delhi.
T44: Worker #1 free to move. Cancel mining order for worker #2 in Bollywood
T45: BW complete. Switch to Slavery. Delhi whips Monument with 23 hammer overflow.
T46: Bollywood can whip settler for 2 pop with 9 hammer overflow.

I also replayed mining gold first, and I misreported some of the timing, but the conclusions are the same. I think the only reasons to stop prior to BW would be to decide where to send the workers. I have including stopping the worker actions prior to the turn BW is complete so they will be free to move wherever we want them.

Here is my PPP:

PPP (mine gold first):
T33: Research BW, worker moves to gold, settler moves 1SE>1NE, Guru moves 1NE, Lotus moves 1N onto hill, Drona moves 1NW
T34: Settler moves 1NE, Dehli founded (builds Monument, works sheep tile). Worker # 1 arrives at gold.
T35: Worker #1 starts mining. Slider to 0%
T36: Worker #2 finished, moves 1W, starts mining. Bollywood builds a warrior
T37: GH mine finished in Bollywood
T38: Worker #2 moves 1N, mines GH. Gold mine finished. Delhi works gold mine (stagnates). Slider to 100%.
T39: Worker #1 moves to sheep, starts pasture in Delhi. Bollywood grows to pop 3, works corn farm, FP farm, and mined GH.
T40: Warrior (Deva) finished, moves to marble to fogbust. Bollywood starts a warrior (or settler, done on t48?).
T41: Worker #2 finishes mining 2nd GH in Bollywood
T42: Worker #2 moves 1W and starts mining 3rd GH in Bollywood. Sheep pasture complete. Work gold mine 1 more turn.
T43: Bollywood grows to pop 4, works corn farm, FP farm, and 2 mined GHs. Warrior finished in Bollywood, starts settler. Delhi works sheep pasture. Worker #1 moves 1W in anticipation of chopping. Cancel mining order on Worker #2
T44: BW complete. Switch to Slavery.

relevant subsequent events:
T45: Delhi whips Monument with 26 hammer overflow.
T46: Bollywood can whip settler for 2 pop with 9 hammer overflow.

Pause conditions:
1. meet new AI
2. declaration of war or troops massing near border
3. worker stealing opportunity
4. warrior killed by barbs

I propose keeping Lotus and Guru near Delhi for defense, to watch Tokugawa's troops, and worker-stealing.

I will play until BW is done and we can assess our options. How does this sound to everyone?

Edit: I will also make a save for every turn, and try to remember to set the autolog.

Nice work. I like the plan to play through BW with one change: On T43, FW#1 can move S or SW to put in one turn toward a farm; since he has 3 movement points there will be no delay in starting the chop next turn. (Hmm, crossing the river might cost a bit of movement--maybe move S for farming to be safe.)

Personally, I'd send Deva (warrior on T40) NW rather than S to fogbust. Other opinions?

I don't think you need to stop after meeting a new AI.

Keep Guru alive.

Addendum: Would it be better on T38 for worker#2 to move NW instead of N? Then, when he finishes that mine, he moves E to partially mine the hill. On T43, cancel the mining as listed. Then, on T44, he can move E to start a chop that turn. In the current plan, if the worker wanted to go somewhere to chop, he'd spend all turn getting there with no movement left to start the chop.

Xcalibrator said:

Nice work. I like the plan to play through BW with one change: On T43, FW#1 can move S or SW to put in one turn toward a farm; since he has 3 movement points there will be no delay in starting the chop next turn. (Hmm, crossing the river might cost a bit of movement--maybe move S for farming to be safe.)

Click to expand...

OK - I will move Worker #1 1S and farm for 1 turn. Thanks for spotting that. I am still learning to take full advantage of Fast Workers

Personally, I'd send Deva (warrior on T40) NW rather than S to fogbust. Other opinions?

Click to expand...

My concern is a barb city popping up near the marble, but I suppose one popping up near the gems site would also be bad.

I don't think you need to stop after meeting a new AI.

Keep Guru alive.

Click to expand...

OK - I will only pause if there is something highly unusual about the AI.

Xcalibrator said:

Addendum: Would it be better on T38 for worker#2 to move NW instead of N? Then, when he finishes that mine, he moves E to partially mine the hill. On T43, cancel the mining as listed. Then, on T44, he can move E to start a chop that turn. In the current plan, if the worker wanted to go somewhere to chop, he'd spend all turn getting there with no movement left to start the chop.

Click to expand...

This is another good idea. I will implement this as well.

Revised PPP (mine gold first, changes in bold):
T33: Research BW, worker moves to gold, settler moves 1SE>1NE, Guru moves 1NE, Lotus moves 1N onto hill, Drona moves 1NW
T34: Settler moves 1NE, Dehli founded (builds Monument, works sheep tile). Worker # 1 arrives at gold.
T35: Worker #1 starts mining. Slider to 0%
T36: Worker #2 finished, moves 1W, starts mining. Bollywood builds a warrior
T37: GH mine finished in Bollywood
T38: Worker #2 moves 1NW, mines GH. Gold mine finished. Delhi works gold mine (stagnates). Slider to 100%.
T39: Worker #1 moves to sheep, starts pasture in Delhi. Bollywood grows to pop 3, works corn farm, FP farm, and mined GH.
T40: Warrior (Deva) finished, moves to marble to fogbust (?). Bollywood starts a warrior (or settler, done on t48?).
T41: Worker #2 finishes mining 2nd GH in Bollywood
T42: Worker #2 moves 1E and starts mining 3rd GH in Bollywood. Sheep pasture complete. Work gold mine 1 more turn.
T43: Bollywood grows to pop 4, works corn farm, FP farm, and 2 mined GHs. Warrior finished in Bollywood, starts settler. Delhi works sheep pasture. Worker #1 moves 1S starts farm, and cancels work order in anticipation of chopping. Cancel mining order on Worker #2
T44: BW complete. Switch to Slavery.

Green from me.

Trystero said:

My concern is a barb city popping up near the marble, but I suppose one popping up near the gems site would also be bad.

Click to expand...

Most or all of you know this, but since you mentioned it - note that to keep barb cities from spawing, we have to keep the tile in our sight. The two tile spawn busting rule doesn't apply to barb cities.
Is it too early for them though?
Does the no raze option apply to autorazing of 1 pop barb cities?

Green from me.

Deckhand said:

Green from me.

Most or all of you know this, but since you mentioned it - note that to keep barb cities from spawing, we have to keep the tile in our sight. The two tile spawn busting rule doesn't apply to barb cities.
Is it too early for them though?
Does the no raze option apply to autorazing of 1 pop barb cities?

Click to expand...

It should be too early for barb cities. More worried about barb archers.

No city razing means NO city razing. What part of the phrase "NO CITY razing" is giving you trouble? (To answer your question, any barb city is permanent).

Thanks for showing the comparison to sheep first, Trys. I feel more confident we have the best plan now. Green from me.

Update: I will play until BW later tonight (about 12 hours from the time of this post). Sorry this is taking a while, but I have to work my Civ time in around work and family, and I wanted to make sure I had the best plan in place.

The good news is this gives you plenty of time to debate the pros and cons of warrior moves.

Green from me. Good luck!