Challenge VII-07

Ozbenno

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[IMG=right]http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/images/greatgeneral.jpg[/IMG]While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Any
  • Difficulty: Emperor
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Standard
  • Map Type: Boreal
  • Speed: Epic
  • Required: Raging Barbarians, Always War, One City Challenge, No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
  • Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
  • Civ: Any
  • Opponents: Any
  • Version: 3.19.003
  • Date: 7th February to 7th June 2012
Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
 
Not sure why it's "any" victory. I suppose Space or Time are possible (along with the obvious choice).
 
This one shamelessly robbed from Challenge I (game 8) as it has been my favourite game in the 6 series we have played so far.

Ouch! I remember that game: it was fun, somehow, although I never came close to any kind of victory! And it didn't have the limitation of One City Challenge. :crazyeye:

My main problem back then was that as soon as I razed a city, one of the AIs resettled it ...
 
Ouch! I remember that game: it was fun, somehow, although I never came close to any kind of victory! And it didn't have the limitation of One City Challenge. :crazyeye:

My main problem back then was that as soon as I razed a city, one of the AIs resettled it ...

Don't forget a primary point: Raging Barbs on Epic Speed + you have the GW + boreal all land map = AI's having little trouble with barbs.
May help us. :)

I have to admit...OCC! :sad:
 
This game is really tough.

My first attempt I got to 1800ad before I threw in the towel.

Until Rifles/Cavalry I used HA's to eliminate one AI and Muskets for another. Having no metal killed the game. I could have used Mace's for centuries, then Cuir's, but not having Iron killed that.

I was producing 2 Cavs/Rifles every 3 turns, but the relentless stacks just kept coming. My last SoD got nailed after finishing off the thrid AI.

My first 3 GG's became super medics, the next 7 were settled. My Riflemen started out as Drill IV, which was nice, but not enough.

My only advice is:
- settle on/near stone
- build GW
- if you don't have horses within reach, start again.
- if you don't have metal within reach, start again.
- kill em all :ar15:
 
This game is really tough.
Well, my game was rather easy. I had to raze no more than 4 AI cities. The rest was taken care of by my new favorite PA partner: the Barbarian State. :lol:

I am not sure, if my game will be accepted (my first HOF submission :)), but 1100 AD is probably not bad, though definitely beatable. With some luck and careful micromanagement a finish in the early ADs should be possible.

My grand strategy can basically be summarized by: build GW, conquer the map with swords/cats. Techpath: masonry -> ironworking -> construction -> currency. Leader: Stalin

Some tips for competitive finish dates:
- Choose an IND leader with mining or mysticism as starting tech, settle on stone, tech masonry, build GW. You can finish the GW before barbs enter your territory. Teching archery for barb defense is a waste of beakers. An early GW also increases the barb pressure on neighboring AI cities. In my game the first AI was eliminated before I finished my first stack of swords.
- A three gems start is far less important than a favorable AI distribution. You don't want two AIs to be too close and spawnbust for each other.
- Take out the closest AI(s) ASAP. The less AIs are on your map the more barbs will harass the remaining ones.
- If you don't have iron -> restart
- Check the Demo screen every once in a while. If an AI's land and population is greater than three times your own -> restart
- If an AI has feudalism -> restart
- It's highly entertaining watching an AI city being harassed by barbs with a Great Spy, but it is probably a better idea to use the spy to locate the remaining AIs. Look for AI culture by zooming out. If possible, avoid meeting them unless your stack is close. Ideally, you don't want the AIs in war mode until your stack reaches their borders. BTW, can someone please tell me why my supposedly invisible GSpy can declare war when "meeting" an AI? :crazyeye:

I'll probably come back to this game and try another leader (Augustus Caesar?). It is way too entertaining to be done with it...

(first post on CFC after longtime lurking :))
 
Thanks Pollina, you really helped me focus on my strategy.

After seeing you completely pwn me, I decided on a major rethink.

Instead of Stalin which was my first attempt, I renounced an Industrious leader and searched for something that would really help me stomp the AI early.

In the end I decided on Boudica. I actually thought that she is so embaressingly good for this challenge that I really should have thought of her before.

She has:
- Hunting and Mysticism. So, can research Masonry straight out of the box and camp all those lovely deer.
- Aggressive, for free promotion of melee units
- Charismatic, for quick promotions
- UU is a swordsman, that can be built with Copper or Iron.
- UB is Walls (which cost almost nothing after settling on stone)

In my first trial run with her, my caps BFC had only 1 deer and 1 gems in addition to the stone I settled on. I won in 1270ad, but it could have easily been 500ad if I had found Gandhi earlier. So, my second attempt was much better.

Settled on stone. BFC had 1 gems, 2 deer, wheat & sheep + several hills.

Barbs eliminated one of the Americans for me, but I had to do the rest.

Won in 175ad, but this could have easily been 200bc with a bit more luck.

I think Boudica will win this Challenge, though I did also consider Cyrus. My first warrior had to survive attacks from an Archer and a Warrior in successive turns before I finished the GW. You either need an industrious leader, or a bit of luck.
 
Thanks Pollina, you really helped me focus on my strategy.

After seeing you completely pwn me, I decided on a major rethink.

Instead of Stalin which was my first attempt, I renounced an Industrious leader and searched for something that would really help me stomp the AI early.

In the end I decided on Boudica. I actually thought that she is so embaressingly good for this challenge that I really should have thought of her before.

She has:
- Hunting and Mysticism. So, can research Masonry straight out of the box and camp all those lovely deer.
- Aggressive, for free promotion of melee units
- Charismatic, for quick promotions
- UU is a swordsman, that can be built with Copper or Iron.
- UB is Walls (which cost almost nothing after settling on stone)

In my first trial run with her, my caps BFC had only 1 deer and 1 gems in addition to the stone I settled on. I won in 1270ad, but it could have easily been 500ad if I had found Gandhi earlier. So, my second attempt was much better.

Settled on stone. BFC had 1 gems, 2 deer, wheat & sheep + several hills.

Barbs eliminated one of the Americans for me, but I had to do the rest.

Won in 175ad, but this could have easily been 200bc with a bit more luck.

I think Boudica will win this Challenge, though I did also consider Cyrus. My first warrior had to survive attacks from an Archer and a Warrior in successive turns before I finished the GW. You either need an industrious leader, or a bit of luck.

I'm glad that my post was helpful. :)

Boudica was one of my first choices as well since she is one of my favorite leaders. Unfortunately, in my test games with her barbs kept killing me a couple of turns before I could finish TGW. That was when I tried Stalin with whom I won instantly. Now that I know that it is possible to survive I will play her again and hope for some more luck. I don’t think I can beat 175 AD, but I should be able to beat my own date considering I started in a corner in that attempt (probably another restart condition).
 
Starting in a corner isn't all that bad.

I had to disband most the troops I sent east, because they couldn't get back west before I would have had strike problems.
 
Ugh.. Boreal maps can be so evil.. Was doing quite well until I found Pacal, whose land is unreachable for my troops as it is protected by a big mountain range and a lake.. :mad:

Can I declare victory when all AI have been destroyed except for the unreachable ones? ;)

I haven't had much luck with the barbarians doing much carnage to the AI in all of my tries. I am selecting the few unit builders as opponents (Gandi, Asoka, Roosevelt, Elizabeth, Pacal, Frederick) but they seem to do quite well :lol:

Maybe I should skip India civs as the fast worker is a pretty good UU. I try to avoid IMP, PRO, CHA and CRE leaders as well as Civs with good early UU (Egypt, Mali)

Can you guys share some insights in the opponents you select?

Rob.
 
I chose both Indians, all 3 Americans, and Frederick.
Keep the Indians, they are reliably weak.

Elizabeth is fine, but as she is Financial, she might research good units faster than non-financial civs.

Pacal is a nono, IMO, as his UU is a spearman.


edit: and how do you only have 22 posts, after 6 years?
 
Thanks for the input, Neilmeister.. I have considered to add the other American AIs. However, both are CHA so I am not too sure this is a good idea. I think FIN is not a very strong trait on this type of map.
As for Pacal, I do not fear spearmen as I only attack with melee units.

Just finished another game on 1295 AD, best date for me yet (prev 1778). Still in 3rd place though :lol:

I think my ideal roster of opponents would include: Gandhi, Asoka, Huayna Capac, Roosevelt, Frederik and Pacal / Elizabeth

Oh, and 23 posts in 6 years, guess I was more of a lurker :)
 
There is an enormous amount of luck involved. Be prepared to abandon lots of games early because you don't get horses (if choosing chariot/HA approach) or metal (if choosing a metal-unit approach). If the barbs kill one civ, they have a city and more spawning room, and make it that much harder on all the other civs. That is a luck factor you cannot control, but you'll probably need it to post the fastest finish.

Choose your civilization carefully. Optimally, you want your main attacking done with 2-move units. Gallic warriors with a dun are easy to make 2-move units on hills, but cost you one promo that would otherwise make them stronger on attack. And after hills defense-2, hills defense-3 is the next logical promo because it gives you 50% survival rate in every attack (most of which will be at very low odds of survival otherwise). I personally think Keshiks are great for this task, as they ignore terrain and always move 2. However, my best Keshik game stalled because I let the far away civ get too big to fail. And I ended up winning during much experimentation, finally, on a game with random civ and random opponents! :lol:

You will build the Great Wall. This is made much much faster if you (a) settle on stone, (b) are Industrious leader, (c) start with mining... the more of the above the better.

The map: make sure you are using settings that have LOW SEAS. High seas make for a maze that you have to navigate, lengthening the effective distance = time for opponents growth. As stated, stone is highly desirable. Settling on a plains hill is second best. Anything else kind of bites.... but your results may vary. You will have at least 2 food resources (2 deer is fine) and one gem or other commerce resource.

I spent a lot of time choosing weak (militarily) opponents. BAD strategy. The peace-loving civs tend to get high culture borders early. You want at least 4 dead civs before your first cat ever gets to an opponent's city. The weakest civs appear to be the Expansive ones. Yes, that uis couterintuitive since you absoluetly do not want them creating more cities you have to kill... but in fact, they spend so much effort on settlers and escorts that the barbs never let get out of town, that they generally stay weak and stuck at one or two cities.

Instead of going direct into GW mode, dancing your worker around (doing nothing, but seeing all your camps/roads pillaged), you can expedite the whole thing by researching bronze working while building your first worker. If you are relying on metal (for Gallic Warriors, or vultures for example), you can quit here if you don't see copper within the third ring. Restart.

Don't scout with your starting scout or warrior! The longer you wait to meet (and declare war on) your rivals, the less likely they are to start spamming archers.

After building the GWall, delete all but one of your warriors. Save cash. Either that, or send them off on suicide mission to find and choke some neighbors. You want 2 workers. More than that is a waste, imo (but I'm just telling you how to win, not how to post the fastest time).

You will build barracks, granary, stable (ger), and dun. No other buildings at all. Only units. Note, don't buyild regular walls... if the AI are doing well enough to send stacks your way, the game is lost eventually anyhow.

You will turn off reseach completely after Construction. Forget ideas about rifles or whatever... you will die if you need any tech beyond construction. Getting Math before clear-cutting is good, but don't wait that long. Chop forests in checkerboard pattern to maximize forest regrowth. After improving your handful of resources, chopping is all you want to do with your workers. Barbs will build any roads you may want to use in neutral space.

You will need catapults for the last cities, which will have 60% culture defense and about 4 or more archers with 4 promos each. So plan on teching to construction as fast as possible (Oracle may be an option, but I couldn't make that work... every hammer into units is the only way). Settling your first GSpy is good for tech... but it depends on whether your warriors have found some targets or not whether using him to scout is a goood idea or not.

Barbs are your friends... avoid all battles with barbs that you can. Exception is barb warriors, (and archers on flat) which should be viewed as free XP. The only time you attack a barb city is if you are in need of cash to prevent strike. Take the time to pillage while healing... you'll be happy for the cash later, even if you have 350 gold in the bank now.

Your first GG makes your scout into a super-medic. Note, Jaguars can get woody3 making a super-medic less imperitive, but Jags are too weak in my experience, so forget that.

You will want to clobber your closest two neighbors first becaus ethey have been at war with you longest and have therefore been in war-mode longest. They are also the closest source of cash for you, and you can get there quickest meaning that you can succeed with fewer units (getting there even quicker). Remember, the more open space, the bigger the barb problem for the AI.

My winning game was with Hannibal and Numidian Cavalry. Note, I've never had anything good to say about the Numies before, but on this map they seem to work quite well. They have bonus against melee, and barb spear (swords later) are one of the worst attrition factors. It really helps. Best of all, they are immune to first strikes, and AI tend to give a whole bunch of first-strike promos that do nothing to you. Protective civs seem easiest to kill, actually. Who'd have thought that? Not me! :lol: Numies start with flanking-1, and a 20% withdraw chance, so getting them to 50% survival rate is just one promo away. Note, it isn't so much the hammer cost of the units as the time cost of getting them to the farthest civ that you need to guard.

First stack should comprise about 8 Numies or whatever you prefer. It will kill one civ, then probably head to the second neighbor and start pillaging until reinforcement (with your new GG) arrive.

Then you build a stack of about 12 units (more is better!) and start them on a trek to the farthest corner of the map. (All four corners of the map will have a civ, and you will almost never start in the middle, so it doesn't matter where you start). There are usually two farthest. One will be having barb trouble, tghe other will be up to about 3 cities and have horses or metals on-line. Pillage the strat resources before doing anything else.

ABSOLUTLEY DO NOT get sidetracked by kills of opportunity that would cause some attrition. You will need every unit at your destination! Pillage mercilessly, yes! Attack anything at less than 90% odds, NEVER (except when taking out a city, at which point bad odds are part of the deal)! This is how I lose many games... by arriving at the far civ with too few units to do the job. Poor discipline!

BTW: If you already have 2 GG-medic, then settle rest of GG and get higher promo units right from the start.

Do NOT send units off one-by-one. Always minimum of 3. More is better, and the farther away they will go, the longer you should wait to make the stack bigger before departure. One unit should have +1 visibility to avoid stopping next to a barb unit that can kill you. Slow and alive is better than fast and dead. In fact, I did not like Gallic Warriors because they are too slow if you try to protect them from barb axes, and attrition too high if you don't. Haven't figured out the proper formula, I guess. Horses can avoid barb spears easier, and spears are fewer. Also, the Numie traits help alleviate that (compared to keshiks, you'll lose about 40% fewer Numies to spears).

If ever your stack gets so low that it would require a lot of luck to take that last AI city... resist the temptation. Don't do it! Live to fight another day. Keep him choked until the next stack can get there. Or if the civ is sufficiently weak and is getting choked by barbs, you can start choking/pillaging the next civ instead. Disciplined armies are required!

You will win the game when your catapults reach the intermediate civs. If the farthest civs are still alive but choked, your cats do not usually have to travel too much further (and have barbarian roads to use).

Summary: Closest civs first by UU or chosen swarming unit/farthest civs by bigger stack of UU or chosen swarming unit next/ middle civs by cats and whatever has lasted this long (and you will likely be struggling to avoid strike at this point). Two cats for each city works if you aren't in a hurry. Never suicide your last cat in the area until the last city is going to be captured for certain... they take a long time to get there, and culture borders kill you.

Hope this helps some of you. Good luck, and have fun! :goodjob:
 
There is lots and lots of really good advice in that post kcd, sounds like you did it tough.
 
You will need catapults for the last cities...

Note, Jaguars can get woody3 making a super-medic less imperitive, but Jags are too weak in my experience, so forget that.

Some of your advice is good, but not the above.

355AD first lazy attempt with Monty. Jags only.

masonary-mining-BW-IW-poly-priest-writing-(oracle)->CoL...

The start had stone and deer but was lacking gems...so that slowed me down quite a bit getting to IW and CoL. Lost several units on strike before I could get CoL / caste up. Had to build pyramids to speed up IW.

With gems, the main bottlenecks in my game go away and BC finish should be possible.

I can see merits in Neilmesiter's Boudica/Gwarriors/Charisma too. Maybe that will win. But I think Monty/Jags is just as easy and you don't need to re-roll to have bronze/iron in the cultural borders.

cas
 
Monty BC is possible, but so map dependent. If one civ is semi-shielded from barbs in a corner with bronze/iron, you have to suicide too many units.

Rolled an ok map with Augustus Caesar. stone, 2 deer, gold in the BFC. iron in the 3rd ring. Barbs didn't finish off any civs, but they did a good job weakening two of them. Unfortunately, 3 civs were against the eastern edge of the map and I was on the western edge. 145AD finish still beats Neilmesiter by 2 turns. :mischief:

I'll try this one again if I can get a stone start with non-forested gold/gem in the middle part of the map. Starting far west or far east it is very difficult to get to the last civ(s) in BC with enough units for the kill.

cas
 
Hah! I can't wait to give this a go. Haven't attempted OCC since my ladder days (at least then all the other humans just had one city too)! Thanks for all the input. I come to some of these Challenger games and I'm like gah! I have no idea how to approach that so its good to get some good starting tips :)

Edit: Re-rolling. For. Stone. Is. Tedious.
 
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