Golden Age?
Is that an island and not a walled off continent to our west? We should get a boat exploring.
Yes, Hunting - I'd feel better with spearmen or archers.
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SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Is that an island and not a walled off continent to our west? We should get a boat exploring.
Yes, Hunting - I'd feel better with spearmen or archers.
Golden Age?
Is that an island and not a walled off continent to our west? We should get a boat exploring.
Yes, Hunting - I'd feel better with spearmen or archers.
I think AI tend to build Scotland Yard first, if they have the tech. Does one need a tech for making the GSpy special building? (Edit: I checked and I don't think any tech is required). If not, they will use it to infiltrate and then start causing pain... if they have Alpha to make spies (which they don't). If they can't build SY I predict they will most likely make a GA, more likely than settling.
Agree the fishing boat exploration is a priority... staying alive is perhaps slightly higher on the prio list, maybe.
Hunting works for me. Its kinda a conservative move, though. I'm OK with skipping it for military purposes for now, but the camp possibility makes it interesting. Question is whether you want to no longer be able to make warriors except in unconnected cities or not? Warriors are good cheap happy-makers for culture victories (at least until happiness not a problem).
Good job so far Xcal!
As for HBR, the AI are stupid. It is coded into Toku's personality to aim for early HBR since he seldom trades for anything and is always hellbent on war (even without aggr AI). Even without horses or elephants, often. I would not conclude from teching HBR that he has horses until I see a mounted unit. (By then, I would agree it is too late to be getting hunting).
Trystero
Deity
This has been my observation as well. The AI that builds the Great Wall almost always uses the first Great Spy to build Scotland Yard. Speaking of which, should we consider switching our EP (or some of them) to Hammy, now that we can see Toku's research?
I am sure that if Toku had horses we would have seen chariots by now. That is not to say he doesn't have elephants, but I agree that the lack of the appropriate resource would not prevent him from teching HBR.
AAA
Warlord
In terms of money, cottages and population on them are the simplest way to boost our tech rate.
Is everybody as exhausted as I am? Are we pausing to think about something or is Xcal handing off... or have we simply reached the depth of our understanding?
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
I'm not entirely clear where we are. What is the next step? What major question(s) need to be answered? I assume we will explore with the workboat. I prefer skipping hunting - I don't want to play conservative, and cheap garrison warriors are attractive.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Sorry, I was too busy yesterday to update the test game, and tonight will be the same. What I'd like to do is figure out exactly how the real and test games differ in terms of gpt and bpt and see if we can still get CoL by T87. This is still my preferred scenario because we would like to found Confucianism, and we could then run enough scientists in Delhi under Caste to pop a Scientist (for an academy) before Bolly pops its Prophet. I think it's possible by whipping a library in Drona and emphasizing cottages/growth over mines (in both Drona and Bolly), letting Vijay grow more before whipping a granary (and working the lake until the wheat is farmed), and shutting down research until Bolly's and Drona's libraries are built, but it needs careful testing.
If that won't work, or if people don't like the idea, then I'd say we probably want to start Hunting, but not finish it because those cheap warriors are so useful. If we see any Japanese horsemen, though, we immediately finish it off and build spears. And maybe after building another couple warriors we'll want to finish Hunting so we can camp the deer to speed Vijay's growth once it gets to pop2. After starting Hunting we continue with Math. This lets us chop the AP and get those 50 extra hammers we'd otherwise miss without the Math bonus, speeding up completion of the AP.
Another possibility is Alphabet so that we can do some trading, but that will take about as long as CoL and we only have 2 potential trading partners, unless our imminent workboat explorer finds somebody. So probably no to Alpha. Other ideas?
If that won't work, or if people don't like the idea, then I'd say we probably want to start Hunting, but not finish it because those cheap warriors are so useful. If we see any Japanese horsemen, though, we immediately finish it off and build spears. And maybe after building another couple warriors we'll want to finish Hunting so we can camp the deer to speed Vijay's growth once it gets to pop2. After starting Hunting we continue with Math. This lets us chop the AP and get those 50 extra hammers we'd otherwise miss without the Math bonus, speeding up completion of the AP.
Another possibility is Alphabet so that we can do some trading, but that will take about as long as CoL and we only have 2 potential trading partners, unless our imminent workboat explorer finds somebody. So probably no to Alpha. Other ideas?
Trystero
Deity
I'd vote for CoL. I'm definitely not in favor of Alphabet at this point. I'm beginning to think the No Tech Brokering is to prevent the AI from getting a runaway tech lead, as much as us. Since the culture victory is our other option, maybe we should consider Aesthetics? (edit: after CoL and Math) If we do meet other AI (willing to trade), that could get us Alphabet in an exchange. And if we are thinking about culture, we should probably start getting some riverside cottages up and running (edit: which fits in with Xcal's plan above).
I will be out of town (and away from the internet) until late Sunday. Don't start any wars while I'm gone.
I will be out of town (and away from the internet) until late Sunday. Don't start any wars while I'm gone.
server troubles... anyhow, I'll have a closer look tomorrow.
High King J.J.
Prince
A heartfelt CONGRATULATIONS to High King JJ for his "Fastest Culture Victory" award in WOTM41!
Bring some of that fast culture expertise to this game too, please.
Hah.
Thanks, but I was the only one (stupid enough?) to go for culture in that game. Can't remember anything about it anymore, I guess I should review whatever I did. [checks the results thread]"1864 AD Cultural Victory"
"Fast culture expertise"? ?? That's an interesting way to describe the amazingly late date of said victory condition. Are you sure you want my "expertise" for this game?
Had a flu relapse. That's what you get when you don't beeline for medicine and
and instead get 
like a 
instead of getting 
.Enough with my endless
Lich
J.J. [feeling like someone just stole his phylactery]
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Rejoice! The server is up! I used the time when I was cut off from Civilization to update the test game and try again for CoL by T87. In the test game game (which is at T74--I'll post when I'm allowed on the other computer by my kids) I corrected the northern deer--it has forest. I believe everything is now correct--hammers toward builds, food in the bin, beakers per turn, and beakers in the bin--except that the real game maintenance costs are 2gpt higher than in the test game. They used to be only 1gpt higher, so it's not unlikely that the divergence will grow over time, but assuming the 2gpt differential I was able to complete CoL by T87 with a wee bit to spare. I've written down the expected gold and beaker status at the end of every turn so we can compare against reality as we go and adjust as necessary/possible.
I propose playing to about T80 to see how things are going. Bombay and Bolly complete builds then, and Delhi next turn, so it's a good place to pause and think about what to build next. And plans for Drona will also be up in the air depending on when/whether we lose the corn to Japanese culture. Here's a summary:
74: Revolt to OrgRel
75: Delhi completes workboat, settle Vijay SE of wheat
76: Bolly granary completed, Bombay axe completed
77: Delhi granary (after 1-whip)
78: Drona granary
79: Bolly library (after 2-whip). I have 45 overflow go to the AP next turn then start H missionary. An alternative is to put it toward another FW.
80: Bombay warrior
81: Delhi warrior
83: Bolly Hindu missionary (after 1-whip; overflow to AP, then start H temple)
84: Try to convert Drona to Hinduism
86: Delhi warrior
87: CoL done, revolt to Caste System, run 4 scientists in Delhi for 4 turns (5 sci's on T90) to pop Great Sci on T91.
Attached--Test games at T74 (current turn) and T87 (after getting CoL):
to update the test game and try again for CoL by T87. In the test game game (which is at T74--I'll post when I'm allowed on the other computer by my kids) I corrected the northern deer--it has forest. I believe everything is now correct--hammers toward builds, food in the bin, beakers per turn, and beakers in the bin--except that the real game maintenance costs are 2gpt higher than in the test game. They used to be only 1gpt higher, so it's not unlikely that the divergence will grow over time, but assuming the 2gpt differential I was able to complete CoL by T87 with a wee bit to spare. I've written down the expected gold and beaker status at the end of every turn so we can compare against reality as we go and adjust as necessary/possible.I propose playing to about T80 to see how things are going. Bombay and Bolly complete builds then, and Delhi next turn, so it's a good place to pause and think about what to build next. And plans for Drona will also be up in the air depending on when/whether we lose the corn to Japanese culture. Here's a summary:
74: Revolt to OrgRel
75: Delhi completes workboat, settle Vijay SE of wheat
76: Bolly granary completed, Bombay axe completed
77: Delhi granary (after 1-whip)
78: Drona granary
79: Bolly library (after 2-whip). I have 45 overflow go to the AP next turn then start H missionary. An alternative is to put it toward another FW.
80: Bombay warrior
81: Delhi warrior
83: Bolly Hindu missionary (after 1-whip; overflow to AP, then start H temple)
84: Try to convert Drona to Hinduism
86: Delhi warrior
87: CoL done, revolt to Caste System, run 4 scientists in Delhi for 4 turns (5 sci's on T90) to pop Great Sci on T91.
Attached--Test games at T74 (current turn) and T87 (after getting CoL):
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Green. Glad the server is back.
Green.
Do I understand correctly that we are delaying the AP, because a) other stuff higher prioirty and b) Divine Right Civ isn't expected to build it?
Do I understand correctly that we are delaying the AP, because a) other stuff higher prioirty and b) Divine Right Civ isn't expected to build it?
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
More or less. Yes, I consider a granary and library in Bolly as higher priority than the AP, and a granary may well contribute to a faster AP. The library is essential to getting CoL by T87, and a pretty good idea no matter what. After the granary and library are built we should probably think about how hard to push for the AP, which is one reason I suggest pausing around T80. We are assuming the DR civ will build the AP, just not as fast as us (provided we don't dawdle).
SteelHorse
Deity
Random thoughts.
Minor point on the test map is that Bolly should be set to the Holy City. Needed if you want to build shrine with Prophet.
Question: Is a Gsci for Academy better using a Gpro for building the Hindu Shrine or Bulbing into CS?
I tried the test map to get Toku to pleased. He attacked so I used the opportunity to take a few cities, infect with Hindu and give back. In addition, I settled 2 cities and liberated to him. As well as gifting a tech and 1 resource. Got him to cautious. Thinking we would need to get him to Hindu to stand a chance.
Alpha can wait until we see if someone want to trade. If everyone is Toku it may be a while.
Minor point on the test map is that Bolly should be set to the Holy City. Needed if you want to build shrine with Prophet.
Question: Is a Gsci for Academy better using a Gpro for building the Hindu Shrine or Bulbing into CS?
I tried the test map to get Toku to pleased. He attacked so I used the opportunity to take a few cities, infect with Hindu and give back. In addition, I settled 2 cities and liberated to him. As well as gifting a tech and 1 resource. Got him to cautious. Thinking we would need to get him to Hindu to stand a chance.
Alpha can wait until we see if someone want to trade. If everyone is Toku it may be a while.
AAA
Warlord
I admire your determination
. But I'd vote for just squishing him 
and bribing someone farther away with techs and free cities.
Trystero
Deity
Apparently I didn't miss too much being away all weekend.
Green from me for playing to turn 80.
Green from me for playing to turn 80.
Good point. When we say Toku, refering to a civilization, it means the Japanese Toku. If we mean any other civ, we call it Hamagawa or Baby-Toku or something with a modifier of some kind to distinguish it.
Green from me to t80. Agree with AAA that squishing is a good alternative. Usual religious game squishing takes too long, but in this case we are expecting a somewhat longer (AD years) religious game that requires a substantial amount of military power for protection. In a culture game, Toku as a neighbor is bad news. We have to squish them both.
I would like to also point out that if we are serious about religious VC, and there are a lot of other Toku's out there, the best way to get Friendly with a Toku is to join him in a war against someone else. Very effective. We'd need to know more civs for this to work, though. And hopefully there are some other wars out there to join.
@Trystero: all you missed were a whole bunch of "server not responding" messages.
@Trystero: all you missed were a whole bunch of "server not responding" messages.
Yes, it was a barrel of laughs. Don't forget the 'database error' page, that was fun too.
