SGOTM 15 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Played, everything went according to the PPP.
Session log
Report
Empire overview. As you can see, a wounded barbarian warrior is heading for Vij.
The new discovered land in NW direction, we still have not found Ham's culture border, should be nearby. As you can see it, there's a good site with Wheat.
Now here's something that you won't be happy to see. Toku has been in WHEOOHRN for a while, since at least 1960 BC. 95% chance we are his target. We are quite unlucky see an emperor AI doing this so early.
Issues for next set.
1. What to pick from Oracle? Aes or CoL.
2. Tech next? Pottery or something else?
3. 5th city? Next settler will ready in 4 turns. Where to go?
4. City build?
6. How to deal with the barbarian warrior in Vij, attack or defend?
7. Do you want me to do very detailed plan or less? in which I will only give the big direction of workers and military units instead of accurate movement.
Session log
Spoiler :
Report
Empire overview. As you can see, a wounded barbarian warrior is heading for Vij.
Spoiler :
The new discovered land in NW direction, we still have not found Ham's culture border, should be nearby. As you can see it, there's a good site with Wheat.
Spoiler :
Now here's something that you won't be happy to see. Toku has been in WHEOOHRN for a while, since at least 1960 BC. 95% chance we are his target. We are quite unlucky see an emperor AI doing this so early.
Spoiler :
Issues for next set.
1. What to pick from Oracle? Aes or CoL.
2. Tech next? Pottery or something else?
3. 5th city? Next settler will ready in 4 turns. Where to go?
4. City build?
- Bombay: Worker or Settler?
- Delhi: Axe?
6. How to deal with the barbarian warrior in Vij, attack or defend?
7. Do you want me to do very detailed plan or less? in which I will only give the big direction of workers and military units instead of accurate movement.
1. Aesthetics, CoL seems to only help 1 city. (unless we want to plant cow+stone then that's 2 cities)
2. Pottery is fine
3. Short+long term cow+stone city seems better. Extra forests are good in case of emergency.
4. Bombay: it's not ready to grow yet, so I'd pick worker
Delhi: Axe may be needed...
5. Sounds ok, I'd try to work in a granary in there however.
6. The second warrior *should* be able to clean up if things go wrong, so attack.
7. Big picture is ok
2. Pottery is fine
3. Short+long term cow+stone city seems better. Extra forests are good in case of emergency.
4. Bombay: it's not ready to grow yet, so I'd pick worker
Delhi: Axe may be needed...
5. Sounds ok, I'd try to work in a granary in there however.
6. The second warrior *should* be able to clean up if things go wrong, so attack.
7. Big picture is ok
Bebekija
King
1/I'm still assuming that we're going for the Engineering bulb here (more on that later).
- Aesth pretty much guarantees that we get TGLib, since I don't think an emperor will ever tech Literature this fast.
- TGlib w/o Caste = 4 scientists in Delhi. If we build the National Epic as well, we're looking at 36GPPpt pretty soon, while still being able to whip some infra/units. That's really not bad.
- If we get CoL, we're still gonna have to get Aesth before we can bulb Engi, while in the opposite case we get to decide whether we want CoL or not.
- We only really need a border pop in stone+cows city, and this site has plenty of forests to chop a monument if need be.
- IF we ever find someone to tech trade with, with No tech brokering on we can only trade the techs we researched ourselves, and Aesth would probably be a better trade chip.
So my vote is for Aesthetics
2/I'm fine with pottery.
3/Stone+cows without a doubt. The wheat offers too little to justify its cost, as without any economic tech or foreign TR, city 5 is going to hurt us pretty bad. All these forests will also prove valuable when Toku declares.
4/Same as kossin, then probably a granary in Delhi. I'm not sure we'll be in a hurry for the 6th settler, so maybe grow Bombay after the worker.
5/Switching to slavery doesn't hurt (especially if we pick Aesth from the Oracle), but do we really want to start whipping hard without a granary? I understand that Toku's DOW may arrive soon, but still... I seem to remember that we wanted to cottage the capital, so these cottages would have to be worked at some point.
6/ It looks like the second warrior West of Vijay has enough movement to reach the barb if things come to worse. If that is indeed the case, then attack it is.
7/Depends on what you mean by "big direction". All I need to know is which tile the workers are going to improve, and where the warriors are defending/fogbusting. The rest doesn't matter much.
- Aesth pretty much guarantees that we get TGLib, since I don't think an emperor will ever tech Literature this fast.
- TGlib w/o Caste = 4 scientists in Delhi. If we build the National Epic as well, we're looking at 36GPPpt pretty soon, while still being able to whip some infra/units. That's really not bad.
- If we get CoL, we're still gonna have to get Aesth before we can bulb Engi, while in the opposite case we get to decide whether we want CoL or not.
- We only really need a border pop in stone+cows city, and this site has plenty of forests to chop a monument if need be.
- IF we ever find someone to tech trade with, with No tech brokering on we can only trade the techs we researched ourselves, and Aesth would probably be a better trade chip.
So my vote is for Aesthetics
2/I'm fine with pottery.
3/Stone+cows without a doubt. The wheat offers too little to justify its cost, as without any economic tech or foreign TR, city 5 is going to hurt us pretty bad. All these forests will also prove valuable when Toku declares.
4/Same as kossin, then probably a granary in Delhi. I'm not sure we'll be in a hurry for the 6th settler, so maybe grow Bombay after the worker.
5/Switching to slavery doesn't hurt (especially if we pick Aesth from the Oracle), but do we really want to start whipping hard without a granary? I understand that Toku's DOW may arrive soon, but still... I seem to remember that we wanted to cottage the capital, so these cottages would have to be worked at some point.
6/ It looks like the second warrior West of Vijay has enough movement to reach the barb if things come to worse. If that is indeed the case, then attack it is.
7/Depends on what you mean by "big direction". All I need to know is which tile the workers are going to improve, and where the warriors are defending/fogbusting. The rest doesn't matter much.
I think we have a good agreement on the next set. The reason that I want to whip the Axes from Delhi is because that I really worry about the coming DOW. We don't know exactly when Toku started to plot against us, but for sure he has passed the minimum 10 turn gracious time. Assume that Toku connected the Copper ~T45, from the power increment and the distance that his units need to travel from his capital, he should be ready to DOW us with ~5 Axes/Spears ~T65. The only way to deter his invasion is our Axes. We need the time for another 20% culture defense and some unit defensive bonus for better odd.
To make the 5th city more clearly, do you agree with 1SW of the COW?
The next set will take ~6 turns to Pottery, here's the updated test game.
To make the 5th city more clearly, do you agree with 1SW of the COW?
The next set will take ~6 turns to Pottery, here's the updated test game.
^^
SW of cows is great, it allows to share the Deer if we ever need to. The Stone should be available within 20 turns from Delhi border pop.
I don't think we can reach 40% culture before he DoWs but 20% is a certainty given the religion spread.
SW of cows is great, it allows to share the Deer if we ever need to. The Stone should be available within 20 turns from Delhi border pop.
I don't think we can reach 40% culture before he DoWs but 20% is a certainty given the religion spread.
PPP to Pottery
Tech
Finish Writing and take Aes from Oracle, Slider at 0% for 3 turns and then 100% to finish Pottery in another 3 turns.
Worker movement
Vij -- 2 workers chop the last forest->irrigate a riverside grassland for 1 turn->Pasture the sheep->road the Deer tile and pasture it
Pat -- 2 workers pasture the Deer->mine the Gold->mine the GH tile for 1 turns and then road toward the 5th city (1SW of the COW) to Pature the Cow in the first available time
Unit movement
Vij Warriors will attack to kill the barbarian warrior
1 Warrior in NW area will scout further NW
Warrior around Cow/Stone city will move back to Delhi soon
All Axes will move to Vij
City management
All cities will continue on their queued build
Delhi will whip its 2nd Axe and possibly 3rd Axe
Bombay will start a worker after the current settler
Vij -- Works on Gold until the Sheep is improved then city governor will be turned ON
Tech
Finish Writing and take Aes from Oracle, Slider at 0% for 3 turns and then 100% to finish Pottery in another 3 turns.
Worker movement
Vij -- 2 workers chop the last forest->irrigate a riverside grassland for 1 turn->Pasture the sheep->road the Deer tile and pasture it
Pat -- 2 workers pasture the Deer->mine the Gold->mine the GH tile for 1 turns and then road toward the 5th city (1SW of the COW) to Pature the Cow in the first available time
Unit movement
Vij Warriors will attack to kill the barbarian warrior
1 Warrior in NW area will scout further NW
Warrior around Cow/Stone city will move back to Delhi soon
All Axes will move to Vij
City management
All cities will continue on their queued build
Delhi will whip its 2nd Axe and possibly 3rd Axe
Bombay will start a worker after the current settler
Vij -- Works on Gold until the Sheep is improved then city governor will be turned ON
Bebekija
King
Yes 1SW of Cows is what I had in mind.
If we are indeed in danger of a DOW on T65, then surely those 2 Axes are indeed needed ASAP.
Of course it would be ideal if we could spy on Toku's 2nd city and see his stack gather. I wonder how many turns it would take to accumulate enough culture on the tile 1S2E of Vijay and see inside his city?...
I'm fine with the PPP. Small question though : it seems to me that the workers are going to be late on the cows : City 5 will be settled in 7 turns, and deers+gold+1turn of mine takes 5 turns. So they really should move straight to the cows and not road towards city 5. Note that I'm saying this just by looking at the screenshots, so I may be missing something
Other than that, green light
If we are indeed in danger of a DOW on T65, then surely those 2 Axes are indeed needed ASAP.
Of course it would be ideal if we could spy on Toku's 2nd city and see his stack gather. I wonder how many turns it would take to accumulate enough culture on the tile 1S2E of Vijay and see inside his city?...
I'm fine with the PPP. Small question though : it seems to me that the workers are going to be late on the cows : City 5 will be settled in 7 turns, and deers+gold+1turn of mine takes 5 turns. So they really should move straight to the cows and not road towards city 5. Note that I'm saying this just by looking at the screenshots, so I may be missing something
Other than that, green light
soundjata
hole in cheese
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- Jun 3, 2011
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Green light on the PPP. Let's whip some axes!
I am afraid we will be short on workers in the near future.
I assumed wheoohrn would be displayed on the leader list like in bull so did not check that at all.
Am I allowed to check for wheoohrn status in the past saves?
If yes I'll do it and report today.
Edit:
1920: wheoohrn YES
2000: YES
2080: YES
2120: NO
2200: Trade proposal is not an option with red Toku. Does he need to have discovered writing to have this?
Conclusion: Red Toku in war mode since 2080 / Turn 47
Should we consider a city gift to trade for peace once he declares?
Is there a slim chance he might be warring against someone else? We don't share much of a border.
I am afraid we will be short on workers in the near future.
I assumed wheoohrn would be displayed on the leader list like in bull so did not check that at all.
Am I allowed to check for wheoohrn status in the past saves?
If yes I'll do it and report today.
Edit:
1920: wheoohrn YES
2000: YES
2080: YES
2120: NO
2200: Trade proposal is not an option with red Toku. Does he need to have discovered writing to have this?
Conclusion: Red Toku in war mode since 2080 / Turn 47
Should we consider a city gift to trade for peace once he declares?
Is there a slim chance he might be warring against someone else? We don't share much of a border.
If we are indeed in danger of a DOW on T65, then surely those 2 Axes are indeed needed ASAP.
Of course it would be ideal if we could spy on Toku's 2nd city and see his stack gather. I wonder how many turns it would take to accumulate enough culture on the tile 1S2E of Vijay and see inside his city?...
When Vij get 2nd border pop, that 100, it will take 11 turn.
I'm fine with the PPP. Small question though : it seems to me that the workers are going to be late on the cows : City 5 will be settled in 7 turns, and deers+gold+1turn of mine takes 5 turns. So they really should move straight to the cows and not road towards city 5. Note that I'm saying this just by looking at the screenshots, so I may be missing something
Other than that, green light
The Deer tile has been improved since last turn, so it only will be done IBT, workers can't road all the tiles connecting to the Cow city, but enough to do a job while moving towards the Cow tile. That's also the reason why I let the workers in Vij to road the Deer tile before pature in order to connect the Cow city from Vij.
I am afraid we will be short on workers in the near future.
We will produce another worker in Bombay, which makes 1 worker/city, that's the ideal number if we can manage the worker micro well.
I assumed wheoohrn would be displayed on the leader list like in bull so did not check that at all.
That's weird to me too so I did not notice it from your 1960 BC save.
Conclusion: Red Toku in war mode since 2080 / Turn 47
It's a bit early in emperor level. However, theoretically, he could enter WHEOOHRN once he connected Copper.
Should we consider a city gift to trade for peace once he declares?
Never, first, he won't talk with us in quite a few turns. By the time he is willing to talk, we should be winning the war with with 40% culture defense in Vij.
Is there a slim chance he might be warring against someone else? We don't share much of a border.
With only us being his annoyed and weakest neighbor, all others are his friend. I don't see other possibility.
Will play tonight.
Played according to PPP.
Session log
Report
Nothing exciting. That's good,
I don't like to hear the war horn before Vij gets 40% culture.
Our core area. We have 3 Axes ready in Vij and another 1 or 2 to be ready anytime with whip and chop. That makes me feel safe. As you may notice, Toku is 2 turns from Alpha, which means he could call Hammy to join the war!
Here's where Hammy locates.
As usual, some issues for next set, but quite complicated. I don't have very clear answers as last set.
1. What tech next? Monotheism, Literature, and Math.
2. What kind of improvement of those riverside grassland tiles? Farm vs cottage.
3. Do we want to chop 1 forest to granary and do 1 pop whip at size 2/3 in some cities like Bombay, Pat, Var. Delhi will do 2 pop whip at size 5 and Vij can do 1 pop whip at size 4.
4. Do we want Libs in other cities than Delhi?
5. If anyone feel to be interested in taking over and could commit, please say so.
Session log
Spoiler :
Report
Nothing exciting. That's good,
I don't like to hear the war horn before Vij gets 40% culture.Our core area. We have 3 Axes ready in Vij and another 1 or 2 to be ready anytime with whip and chop. That makes me feel safe. As you may notice, Toku is 2 turns from Alpha, which means he could call Hammy to join the war!
Spoiler :
Here's where Hammy locates.
Spoiler :
As usual, some issues for next set, but quite complicated. I don't have very clear answers as last set.
1. What tech next? Monotheism, Literature, and Math.
2. What kind of improvement of those riverside grassland tiles? Farm vs cottage.
3. Do we want to chop 1 forest to granary and do 1 pop whip at size 2/3 in some cities like Bombay, Pat, Var. Delhi will do 2 pop whip at size 5 and Vij can do 1 pop whip at size 4.
4. Do we want Libs in other cities than Delhi?
5. If anyone feel to be interested in taking over and could commit, please say so.
1. Mathematics imo
2. I guess we'll need some Cottages, war will be costly.
3. Certainly, however I'd like this to be slightly planned out if we choose this.
4. We're not planning much research? Besides Delhi I don't think any city needs Library for 10+ turns.
5. Not me at the moment
Bebekija
King
Well done Duckweed!
1/ Maths as well for me.
In case/When Toku attacks, 10 more H in an Axe will make a difference, and also it allows to start choping TGLib with the full bonus as soon as we get Literature, and complete it in 4-5 turns.
2/In Delhi, cottages. Right now we have +6F food surplus from Pop 7 to Pop 10, which is good enough considering that we won't be pushing the pop over 10 much.
In Vijay and Pata, farms to support the eventual mines.
In Bombay, considering the type of game we're looking at, I'd say farms for whipping. With a longer term plan, I'd have planted at least a couple cottages because there's already good commerce and this city doesn't need much food anyway.
In Vara, I'm not sure. When warring this city would probably enter a 4->2 whip cycle, so I guess a couple of farms + the stone is all it needs...
3/Hmm this is the kind of issues for which I'd need to do a little bit of testing to give a definitive answer. Right now though I would say that the 1 pop whip at size 3 in Bombay, Pata and Vara sounds good since they don't need to grow bigger than this.
For Delhi and Vijay I'd have to see how the micro works out. For instance, how can the deer be shared between Vijay and Vara between the whips in order to maximise regrowth.
4/If research is the only issue, then I agree that no cities should need a Library (except Bombay maybe, see my answer in 2/ ?)
However, there's also the issue of GPP generation. We can reach an even faster Engi date if we can have at least one secondary city pop a GS.
As a reminder, here are all the techs we need before Engi :
Maths (self researched soon) -> Alpha (bulb) -> IW (self research) -> MC (bulb/self research) -> Machinery (bulb) -> Construction (self research) -> Engi (bulb)
5/ If we want to respect equal turnsets, you still have a good dozen of turns before handing out the save. We will see who is available by then. I'll probably be able to take it if need be.
1/ Maths as well for me.
In case/When Toku attacks, 10 more H in an Axe will make a difference, and also it allows to start choping TGLib with the full bonus as soon as we get Literature, and complete it in 4-5 turns.
2/In Delhi, cottages. Right now we have +6F food surplus from Pop 7 to Pop 10, which is good enough considering that we won't be pushing the pop over 10 much.
In Vijay and Pata, farms to support the eventual mines.
In Bombay, considering the type of game we're looking at, I'd say farms for whipping. With a longer term plan, I'd have planted at least a couple cottages because there's already good commerce and this city doesn't need much food anyway.
In Vara, I'm not sure. When warring this city would probably enter a 4->2 whip cycle, so I guess a couple of farms + the stone is all it needs...
3/Hmm this is the kind of issues for which I'd need to do a little bit of testing to give a definitive answer. Right now though I would say that the 1 pop whip at size 3 in Bombay, Pata and Vara sounds good since they don't need to grow bigger than this.
For Delhi and Vijay I'd have to see how the micro works out. For instance, how can the deer be shared between Vijay and Vara between the whips in order to maximise regrowth.
4/If research is the only issue, then I agree that no cities should need a Library (except Bombay maybe, see my answer in 2/ ?)
However, there's also the issue of GPP generation. We can reach an even faster Engi date if we can have at least one secondary city pop a GS.
As a reminder, here are all the techs we need before Engi :
Maths (self researched soon) -> Alpha (bulb) -> IW (self research) -> MC (bulb/self research) -> Machinery (bulb) -> Construction (self research) -> Engi (bulb)
5/ If we want to respect equal turnsets, you still have a good dozen of turns before handing out the save. We will see who is available by then. I'll probably be able to take it if need be.
Think about those issues over, get a bit more clear thoughts.
1. Our research capability in the near future when working on the Gold in Vij should be ~25C/T. Therefore it will take
187/1.2/25=7 turns for Mono
312/1.2/25=11~12 turns for Lit
390/1.2/25=13~14 turns for Math
TGL costs 350/2=175H, without chop Delhi will need 175/16=11 turns to complete it.
This fact tells, even without a single chop, going Lit before Math lets us complete TGL earlier. Hence Lit>Math for sure. The question is whether we want Mono, it's an issue of either now or never.
2.
Delhi: It does not need any more improvement, there are 8 improved tile already.
Vij: Farms to support our future HE city to full scale
Bombay: Cottages
Pat: Farms as it only has 3F+ while working on the GOLD and there are also 2 more riverside GH.
Var: Cottages, stone is a weak tile to work, I think Vij and Pat should be enough to handle the war.
3.
Delhi: 2 pop whip at 2nd turn of size 5
Vij: chop the last forest and let it finish granary naturally
Bombay: probably 1 pop whip since there's no forest in the 1st ring
Pat and Var: chop and finish it naturally.
4.
I agree with No libs in other cities, we are going to face the 2 front war soon.
1. Our research capability in the near future when working on the Gold in Vij should be ~25C/T. Therefore it will take
187/1.2/25=7 turns for Mono
312/1.2/25=11~12 turns for Lit
390/1.2/25=13~14 turns for Math
TGL costs 350/2=175H, without chop Delhi will need 175/16=11 turns to complete it.
This fact tells, even without a single chop, going Lit before Math lets us complete TGL earlier. Hence Lit>Math for sure. The question is whether we want Mono, it's an issue of either now or never.
2.
Delhi: It does not need any more improvement, there are 8 improved tile already.
Vij: Farms to support our future HE city to full scale
Bombay: Cottages
Pat: Farms as it only has 3F+ while working on the GOLD and there are also 2 more riverside GH.
Var: Cottages, stone is a weak tile to work, I think Vij and Pat should be enough to handle the war.
3.
Delhi: 2 pop whip at 2nd turn of size 5
Vij: chop the last forest and let it finish granary naturally
Bombay: probably 1 pop whip since there's no forest in the 1st ring
Pat and Var: chop and finish it naturally.
4.
I agree with No libs in other cities, we are going to face the 2 front war soon.
1. If goal is simply fastest GLib, then Literature for certain. Did Judaism go yet, I don't remember...? I'd only go Mono if we want to consider building AP ourselves.
2. Agree, it's what I had in mind but was just lazy and said we'd need a few cottages
3. I'll look it over tonight.
2. Agree, it's what I had in mind but was just lazy and said we'd need a few cottages
3. I'll look it over tonight.
Bebekija
King
Yep, after I posted this morning I opened the live and saw that it would take ~13 turns to reach Maths @100% research, so I wasn't so sure of my choice anymore.....
Besides, in your numbers above you seem to have forgotten about the prereq bonus from Masonry and Polytheism respectively, so it's actually even less favorable to Maths first !! :
187/1.4/25=~6 turns for Mono
312/1.4/25=~9 turns for Lit
390/1.2/25=13~14 turns for Math
So if Maths is out of the way, the benefit from OR is actually quite marginal for TGLib because it is dwarfed by the 100% bonus from Marble :
W/O OR : Delhi builds TGLib at 16*2 = 32Hpt
W OR : Delhi builds TGLib at 16*2.25 = 36Hpt
A pre-Maths chop gives respectively 40H/45H
So TGLib would take ~11 turns without Mono, and ~9 turns with it. If we put at least two chops in it, the difference would probably be only one turn (depending on the OF from previous build).
So taking the detour through Monotheism is only worth it if we intend to build a fair amount of buildings in Delhi, and even then it'd still be preferable to go Literature->Monotheism, if we're focused on getiing TGLib ASAP, that is .
Bebekija
King
Yes, it actually went after Christianism (..
....), see the game log in Duckweed's report aboveYes, it actually went after Christianism (..
Ok I see, more map tampering.
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