SGOTM 15 - Plastic Ducks

Bebekija · Apr 6, 2012

I'd kill the lone spearman, you'd be safe from a counter attack afterwards anyway, and besides he won't counter attack because of the troops around the city.

If we're stalling our attack, the least to do is position our army NE of Tokyo for faster movement northward.
EDIT : but I don't think we should delay it, it would only leave him more time to regroup, and with anarchy it won't cost us too much

Why not use the missionary on Satsuma meanwhile? We will need him to have at least one hindu city eventually?

We may have to delay CoL a little bit more, because we sure can't wait to have the 50% bonus anymore, so this mission is going to cost us quite a bit of EP

soundjata · Apr 6, 2012

^^
I agree with you on these points. Not sure what is your plan for satsuma though. Take the city and... ?

I'll be AFK tomorrow the whole day. Out in the jungle.

See you on Sunday.

kossin · Apr 6, 2012

In any case, we have to find out where we're taking troops after we get rid of Toku. For all we know, Hatty might only know someone OVER water contact.

If we want to delay, we can farm this city for some CRII Trebs.

Nothing to be done about the spy.

Duckweed · Apr 6, 2012

That's unfortunate. OTOH, it's bound to happen. I have never trusted 1 spy mission. The good thing is that this solves our problem of whether to wait for the culture bonus. :lol:

kossin said:
In any case, we have to find out where we're taking troops after we get rid of Toku. For all we know, Hatty might only know someone OVER water contact.

It's a possibility, that's the main reason why I don't want to gift Hatty Satsuma.

Duckweed · Apr 6, 2012

Some changes on the plan

T114

Science slider to 100%, expect to finish CoL in 2 turns, some cities are ready to whip CHs. We are expecting the 50% culture bonus for spy mission, so the EPP cost is probably less than original plan.

Vij -- work on all hills + 1 priest to produce a SPY in one turn

kill the spear with xBow unpromoted
treb 8 Bombard
xBow2 + 2 Axes + 3 trebs (1 for bombardment, 2 for attacking as Toku is going to produce another defender so that 1 of the wounded treb can gain another exp to be promoted to next level) + GG (he needs 1 more battle to gain Medic I promotion) to 1SE of Tykyo
xBow4 move 1NE -- ready to pillige

Edit: promote an Axe in Kyoto to MedicI, always have a medic unit in every stack since the GG is out.

T115

Partial slider to finish CoL

1 wounded treb remove the last defense, 2 healthy trebs promoted to CRI and attack 1st followed by another wound treb, let 2 xBows and GG do the cleaning job

Let the 8exp xBow in Kyoto kill the spear on the hill, so he is level 4.

After taking Tokyo, let 1 Axe move 2E and 1 Axe move 2N1E for worker hunting, otherwise, pillage the tile they stands

Finish the other movements but leave the peace treaty to next set.

kossin · Apr 6, 2012

^^Agree.

Bebekija · Apr 7, 2012

Agree as well. Nice catch on the EP mission.

soundjata said he would be gone this we.
Should one of us take care of these 2 turns to keep things moving (we're running late...) or would you rather wait for him (I don't think he would mind, but you never know...) ?

kossin · Apr 7, 2012

We still have 6 weeks to go.

I'd say if anyone has time, take it forward a bit, 24 whole hours is quite a bit of time

soundjata · Apr 7, 2012

I'm on the move until tomorrow. Feel free to play anyone.

Bebekija · Apr 7, 2012

Well I don't have time today, but I will tomorrow.
OTOH, "tomorrow" for me is close to when soundjata would be ready to play, so better for him to play in this case.

soundjata · Apr 8, 2012

No prob, I've got it tonight

EDIT: playing now

soundjata · Apr 8, 2012

Played according to latest suggestions. All good

Save uploaded.

Game log

Spoiler :

So we took Tokyo without any casualty.
We grabbed a worker 2E of Tokyo
Plundered 10G from a cottage 1NE of Tokyo

Spoiler :

Met a scout from GenghiGawa by moving an axe 2N of Tokyo.
Genghis has Drama, HBR, Monarchy and Currency on us.

Spoiler :

I haven't moved yet a Spy (vija) and HM (Delhi).

A peace treaty can be made with Toku for HBR.

Spoiler :

Someone is teching very fast (238G/turn in the Demo screen)
We currently have 145 gold in the bank and would make zero gold at 0% slider :sad:

soundjata · Apr 8, 2012

I would be happy to pass the game to a good soul now

45 days left.

kossin · Apr 8, 2012

Well that seems like good news!

I can't look now however, but GNP tends to include culture so it may not be as high as advertised.

Edit: Genghis for sure knows someone else as he can't trade Currency which he is the only to know from what we see.

soundjata · Apr 9, 2012

T115

Sign peace with Toku for HBR

Spread hindu to Tokyo
Move the HM in Delhi towards Tokyo (3 turns)
Move the Spy from Vija to 1Sw of Tokyo (4 turns)
Plunder the village near Kyoto with 3 units (1 Xbow + 2 non healer axes)

Tokyo city gifting

Tokyo will be out of revolt in 4 turns (Turn 119)
On the same turn, a spy will be ready there for a "convert to Hindu" mission. We will then have accumulated 115+ 4x4 = 131 espionage points.

Do we feel that is enough?
If yes we can leave the spy slider at zero until then. We might have to wait one extra turn...
Otherwise, to be on the safe side, we might want to put a little bit of slider (10% = 10 EP roughly) on turn 118.
Thoughts.

Other actions on turns 116+117+118+119

Agra:
Build one more cottage, chop a forest, build one more cottage. (8 worker turns overall)
Our galley should come and pickup one of the 2 workers by turn 119. The only improvements left will be a couple of farms.

Bombay:
We need to delay the forest chop to be able to 2 pop whip the Forge in 3 turns at size 7 / 1 unhappy face. Hammers will be 46 + 5x3 = 61. (2 pop whip = 75 if I'm correct)
After the forge, complete the barracks I guess.

Patali:
After the spy, whip a CH with max OF into a HM.
Complete Patali's tile improvements (1 farm + 1 mine = 9 worker turns)
Further improvements could be more cottage or one green mine first?

Varanasi:
Keep building MP archers I guess to account for low production.
Improve 4 extra cottages along the river (use the Patali worker for that first as Patali does not require improvements for now 16 worker turns)

Delhi:
Keep building HM if available, otherwise military units.
we need to discuss the good balance between trebs/pikes/xbows.

Vija:
Military units solely. (No CH)
Osaka:
Forge then whip a CH into a barracks
Workers chop 1SE of Osaka on the way towards Kyoto
1 worker will remain on chopping/farming duty if required.

Kyoto:
Chop a Forge then whip a CH or a library?
workers farm and chop the small cross.
Long term thought: What do we do with the huge food surplus of Kyoto?
I guess whip infrastructures for now. Do we want to convert Kyoto into a great person farm? Remember it has an Academy!

Military units:
Healed units plunder the cottages and get ready to cross Hatty's borders on turn 119.

Questions:
- What do we do with Satsuma? I guess nothing until we think we need a Harbour there. Beware of the "we yearn to join our motherland" syndrome though.
- Is there a point in building more cities? Just asking but I guess the answer is no because 1. We don't want to divert our production away from HM an military units anymore and 2. we don't have the worker turns now.
It could become an option once our workers become unemployed.
- How many spys do we need. Maybe 4 or 5? I've heard they cost nothing in maintenance?

Do you agree to stop updating the test game at this point? :blush:

kossin · Apr 9, 2012

The test game doesn't have to be carbon copy anymore but it's still useful to figure out some costs, e.g. new city, espionage mission, etc..

I'll look closely this afternoon.

kossin · Apr 9, 2012

soundjata said:
T115

Sign peace with Toku for HBR

Spread hindu to Tokyo
Move the HM in Delhi towards Tokyo (3 turns)
Move the Spy from Vija to 1Sw of Tokyo (4 turns)
?? why 1SW, only move 2 tiles so that you can stay within culture borders, then full movements afterwards.

Plunder the village near Kyoto with 3 units (1 Xbow + 2 non healer axes)
Might as well plunder everything.

Tokyo city gifting

Tokyo will be out of revolt in 4 turns (Turn 119)
On the same turn, a spy will be ready there for a "convert to Hindu" mission. We will then have accumulated 115+ 4x4 = 131 espionage points.

Do we feel that is enough?
If yes we can leave the spy slider at zero until then. We might have to wait one extra turn...
Otherwise, to be on the safe side, we might want to put a little bit of slider (10% = 10 EP roughly) on turn 118.
Thoughts.

Duckweed mentioned waiting 1 turn for 50% culture bonus (plus 5t stationary), so I'd say no slider is needed.
The cost should be about the same:
15.5 tiles vs. 15 (+)
More EP spent (-)

Other actions on turns 116+117+118+119

Agra:
Build one more cottage, chop a forest, build one more cottage. (8 worker turns overall)
Our galley should come and pickup one of the 2 workers by turn 119. The only improvements left will be a couple of farms.

Not sure about the non-river cottage, a farm would help for whipping if/when we need boats.

Bombay:
We need to delay the forest chop to be able to 2 pop whip the Forge in 3 turns at size 7 / 1 unhappy face. Hammers will be 46 + 5x3 = 61. (2 pop whip = 75 if I'm correct)
After the forge, complete the barracks I guess.

Start pre-chopping other forest? If overflow is good we can try to squeeze out a HM/Spy.

Patali:
After the spy, whip a CH with max OF into a HM.
Complete Patali's tile improvements (1 farm + 1 mine = 9 worker turns)
Further improvements could be more cottage or one green mine first?
No cottage.

Varanasi:
Keep building MP archers I guess to account for low production.
Improve 4 extra cottages along the river (use the Patali worker for that first as Patali does not require improvements for now 16 worker turns)

Delhi:
Keep building HM if available, otherwise military units.
we need to discuss the good balance between trebs/pikes/xbows.
Minimal Pikes, just for defense. Otherwise last game showed 50/50 to be a good number.

Vija:
Military units solely. (No CH)
Osaka:
Forge then whip a CH into a barracks
Workers chop 1SE of Osaka on the way towards Kyoto
1 worker will remain on chopping/farming duty if required.
That or use the forests? 3 forests = CH

Kyoto:
Chop a Forge then whip a CH or a library?
workers farm and chop the small cross.
Long term thought: What do we do with the huge food surplus of Kyoto?
I guess whip infrastructures for now. Do we want to convert Kyoto into a great person farm? Remember it has an Academy!
No library, Forge>CH
The only reason I'd go to farm GPP other than Delhi is for a GM... however we're likely going to stay in Slavery. Run all its hills and specialists (Spy, Engineer) and cottages.

Military units:
Healed units plunder the cottages and get ready to cross Hatty's borders on turn 119.

Pillage everything, not sure we can swap religion on t119 because of stationary bonus.

Questions:
- What do we do with Satsuma? I guess nothing until we think we need a Harbour there. Beware of the "we yearn to join our motherland" syndrome though.
- Is there a point in building more cities? Just asking but I guess the answer is no because 1. We don't want to divert our production away from HM an military units anymore and 2. we don't have the worker turns now.
It could become an option once our workers become unemployed.
- How many spys do we need. Maybe 4 or 5? I've heard they cost nothing in maintenance?

After careful review, the harbor there seems useless. I would take the city and gift to Hatty right away. Hopefully that allows OB while we wait on the spy. Only potential problem I see is it gives Hatty Iron (in any case, we're not in good shape if we fight there).

No more cities worth it except for resources and infected-gift cities.

Spies: don't know. What is certain is we need several on each front so we don't get hosed again =\

Do you agree to stop updating the test game at this point?

Comments.

Duckweed · Apr 9, 2012

kossin said:
Originally Posted by soundjata View Post
T115

Sign peace with Toku for HBR

This is something worth discussion. We have time to finish him once for all, the major benefit is to eliminate the unhappiness in Kyoto and Osaka. The bad thing is that this city could be helpful to from galleon chain from our core cities.

Spread hindu to Tokyo
Move the HM in Delhi towards Tokyo (3 turns)
Move the Spy from Vija to 1Sw of Tokyo (4 turns)
?? why 1SW, only move 2 tiles so that you can stay within culture borders, then full movements afterwards.

Plunder the village near Kyoto with 3 units (1 Xbow + 2 non healer axes)
Might as well plunder everything.

Tokyo city gifting

Tokyo will be out of revolt in 4 turns (Turn 119)
On the same turn, a spy will be ready there for a "convert to Hindu" mission. We will then have accumulated 115+ 4x4 = 131 espionage points.

Do we feel that is enough?

This is where you need test game. The thing that I'm not sure is that whether Toku's culture has effect on the cost.

If yes we can leave the spy slider at zero until then. We might have to wait one extra turn...
Otherwise, to be on the safe side, we might want to put a little bit of slider (10% = 10 EP roughly) on turn 118.
Thoughts.

Duckweed mentioned waiting 1 turn for 50% culture bonus (plus 5t stationary), so I'd say no slider is needed.
The cost should be about the same:
15.5 tiles vs. 15 (+)
More EP spent (-)

Other actions on turns 116+117+118+119

Agra:
Build one more cottage, chop a forest, build one more cottage. (8 worker turns overall)
Our galley should come and pickup one of the 2 workers by turn 119. The only improvements left will be a couple of farms.

Not sure about the non-river cottage, a farm would help for whipping if/when we need boats.

There are all riverside cottages

Bombay:
We need to delay the forest chop to be able to 2 pop whip the Forge in 3 turns at size 7 / 1 unhappy face. Hammers will be 46 + 5x3 = 61. (2 pop whip = 75 if I'm correct)
After the forge, complete the barracks I guess.

Start pre-chopping other forest? If overflow is good we can try to squeeze out a HM/Spy.

Archers mainly

Patali:
After the spy, whip a CH with max OF into a HM.
Complete Patali's tile improvements (1 farm + 1 mine = 9 worker turns)
Further improvements could be more cottage or one green mine first?
No cottage.

Varanasi:
Keep building MP archers I guess to account for low production.
Improve 4 extra cottages along the river (use the Patali worker for that first as Patali does not require improvements for now 16 worker turns)

Not sure whether we want more improvements in this city, we could whip some units to keep it small.

Delhi:
Keep building HM if available, otherwise military units.
we need to discuss the good balance between trebs/pikes/xbows.
Minimal Pikes, just for defense. Otherwise last game showed 50/50 to be a good number.

No worry about military units, it will keep pumping BMs later.

Vija:
Military units solely. (No CH)

Let it grows until 1 turn from size 11, then halt the growth on all hills, we are going to get Monarchy from Hatty soon so it can grow immediately. Let it produce 3 pikes at least, GK should produce quite a few UUs

Osaka:
Forge then whip a CH into a barracks
Workers chop 1SE of Osaka on the way towards Kyoto
1 worker will remain on chopping/farming duty if required.
That or use the forests? 3 forests = CH

Send 2 workers to chop down the forest 1W of Kyoto and 2 forests West and South of Tokyo, the goal is to make sure Kyoto has 40 hammers.

Kyoto:
Chop a Forge then whip a CH or a library?

BT in 1 turn->Forge->CH->BMs

workers farm and chop the small cross.
Long term thought: What do we do with the huge food surplus of Kyoto?
I guess whip infrastructures for now. Do we want to convert Kyoto into a great person farm? Remember it has an Academy!
No library, Forge>CH
The only reason I'd go to farm GPP other than Delhi is for a GM... however we're likely going to stay in Slavery. Run all its hills and specialists (Spy, Engineer) and cottages.

It's an great production city.

Military units:
Healed units plunder the cottages and get ready to cross Hatty's borders on turn 119.

Pillage everything, not sure we can swap religion on t119 because of stationary bonus.

Questions:
- What do we do with Satsuma? I guess nothing until we think we need a Harbour there. Beware of the "we yearn to join our motherland" syndrome though.
- Is there a point in building more cities? Just asking but I guess the answer is no because 1. We don't want to divert our production away from HM an military units anymore and 2. we don't have the worker turns now.
It could become an option once our workers become unemployed.
- How many spys do we need. Maybe 4 or 5? I've heard they cost nothing in maintenance?

After careful review, the harbor there seems useless. I would take the city and gift to Hatty right away. Hopefully that allows OB while we wait on the spy. Only potential problem I see is it gives Hatty Iron (in any case, we're not in good shape if we fight there).

If you look at all those mountain peaks locating our North, you will see that it's possible that there's a vertical mountain block the naval access from east coast. However, seeing GK's scouting means that we are possible to take some coastal cities from him.

No more cities worth it except for resources and infected-gift cities.

Spies: don't know. What is certain is we need several on each front so we don't get hosed again =\

Do you agree to stop updating the test game at this point?

Comments.

Comments in BLUE.

Looks like you have some time now. I'd suggest you take the game next while you are available and carry it on as fast as you can.

We are running tightly on the schedule.

kossin · Apr 9, 2012

Unfortunately, it's just the Easter break which ends tonight

The project I'm currently working on ends in ~3 weeks which is when I'll be available (til ~endgame).

soundjata · Apr 10, 2012

@ Kossin:

Plunder the village near Kyoto with 3 units (1 Xbow + 2 non healer axes)
Might as well plunder everything.
What do you mean by everything?

Duckweed mentioned waiting 1 turn for 50% culture bonus (plus 5t stationary), so I'd say no slider is needed.
The cost should be about the same:
15.5 tiles vs. 15 (+)
More EP spent (-)
Waiting 5 turns = delaying the next war by 5 turns. Not worth it imo.

Patali:
After the spy, whip a CH with max OF into a HM.
Complete Patali's tile improvements (1 farm + 1 mine = 9 worker turns)
Further improvements could be more cottage or one green mine first?
No cottage.
Like "NO! Don't cottage" or "NO, don't mine but cottage instead"

I am totally unfamiliar with the "sustained-war economy" that we are going to face.
We have 3 cottage cities (Bombay, Agra, Varana), 4 production cities (Patali, Vija, Osaka, Kyoto) and Delhi, Hybrid GP farm / production / cottage.
How would you guys fine tune that for an efficient late game?

Kyoto:
Chop a Forge then whip a CH or a library?
workers farm and chop the small cross.
Long term thought: What do we do with the huge food surplus of Kyoto?
I guess whip infrastructures for now. Do we want to convert Kyoto into a great person farm? Remember it has an Academy!
No library, Forge>CH
The only reason I'd go to farm GPP other than Delhi is for a GM... however we're likely going to stay in Slavery. Run all its hills and specialists (Spy, Engineer) and cottages
Cottages... there won't be any left in Kyoto BFC alright?

@ Duckweed:

This is something worth discussion. We have time to finish him once for all, the major benefit is to eliminate the unhappiness in Kyoto and Osaka. The bad thing is that this city could be helpful to from galleon chain from our core cities.
I'd vote for raze now.

This is where you need test game. The thing that I'm not sure is that whether Toku's culture has effect on the cost.
I'll try to do that tonight.

Archers mainly
In this case do we need barracks?

Not sure whether we want more improvements in this city, we could whip some units to keep it small.
I agree to whip units in our cottage cities.

BT in 1 turn->Forge->CH->BMs
And what is a BT?

SGOTM 15 - Plastic Ducks

King

everything

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

King

Deity

everything

King

everything

everything

everything

Deity

everything

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

everything

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