SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

ChrisShaffer · Apr 24, 2012

Looked at the PPP, it seems fine to me. We can always gift the city to Hammy later, giving us the same diplo point and AP voting member.

vra379971 · Apr 24, 2012

While we wait for the hopefully good news, might I start on a discussion of "What now?"

Apart from the obvious consensus around spies for spying, religious builds for science and culture, and military for tossing Hammy/Egypt back/or attacking a bit while looking for backdoor AP, what exactly are we planning to do here?

Go for Sistine? Try and forge ahead for Liberalism? Double back a bit and pick up Pacifism while heading for Divine Right and Nationalism?

Personally, I'd go for Sistine if we have the option of getting it, while trying to build up the economy as much as we can.

SteelHorse · Apr 24, 2012

Will need to take Sistine from England. :mischief:

Xcalibrator · Apr 24, 2012

What Chris said.

Good luck!

SteelHorse · Apr 24, 2012

Four Slow Careful Turns Nets Paper

Pausing for a few reasons but intend to play on tonight.
1. Paper is in sooner than expected (at least by me due to pillage gold)

2. Want to agree next tech even if at 0. :confused:

3. Met Genghigawa in WHEOHRN :eek:

4. Liz DoWed Toku :eek:

5. Plan to sell Theo to Hammy for 90g and hope to get out of worst enemy mode.

Will check in save in a sec, but have reconfigured cities but not swapped into Slavery.

Notes

T138
Sold CoL and Deer to Shaka
Set all to Research
Do some pillaging - with pillaging Paper in 4 is looking good

IBT - Meet Genghigawa (worst enemy with us in WHEOHRN) - spend 5 minutes trying to pronounce
Shaka no longer worst enemy status

T139
Kyoto Border pop - reassign artist
Trade Hammy Gold for 4gpt
More pillaging
Gift Genghi CoL to get to Cautious +3 !

IBT - No Longer Genghigawa worst enemy

T140
Infect Tokyo, Kyoto
Send Tokyo archer to take a little peak up north

T141
Paper !

Autolog

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 560 AD to 620 AD:

Spoiler :

Continued - Not a whole lot outside of the PPP for turns 142-147

Hagia Sophia built by England
Toku down to 1 city
Just whipped Sankore so we get on the next turn
Stopped here so that we could agree what to do next.
There is a settler headed to the south, a couple of spies out, some missionaries being built.

Ended up not selling Theo just yet - wanted to peak around with the spy to see if Hammy was building a stack.

Pretty amazing T138-147 Paper and Sankore :crazyeye:

And we got a settler out with a few missionaries and spies while building a good number of Temples and Monasteries. Before starting the turnset, I would have said that was impossible.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 620 AD to 740 AD:

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)

Spoiler :

Official Save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Unusual_Suspects_SG015_AD0740_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

vra379971 · Apr 24, 2012

Will need to take Sistine from England.

Ah, the goof ups you run the risk of when you're unable to open save. BTW, I am willing to take a run at getting the save to run on my computer after tomorrow so I can take a turnset if anyone wishes.

Anyway...GJ man! Not exactly sure what to say here but keep on truckin. As for next tech, I'd say see what you can get for Paper before you build Sankore, and then head for....*sighs*....I've no idea. See if you can trade for currency anyway.

Xcalibrator · Apr 24, 2012

Nice work, SH! Paper in 4 turns, hee hee. You can still pillage the copper east of Kyoto. I think your tentative choice of Currency next is good--we can get it in 10 turns or less. BTW, the autolog says Hammy has DoWed Toku, but I didn't notice it on the Diplo/glance screen. I like running the priest in Bolly--GP in 14 turns, and odds favor a Prophet, who could be used to bulb most of DR once we have Monarchy. We have enough espi pts to steal Monarchy from Toku--just need to plant a spy or two in Kago.

Regarding GPs, sorry, I was wrong about Scientists--they will bulb Education, not Philo. I also noticed on the left of the tech screen that it says a Great Merchant "Can explore rival territory," which supports the idea that open borders are not necessary (which Yamps and I are pretty sure about anyway).

A couple AIs have gold they will give for our map (e.g., 35 from Hammy). Since they nearly all know each other and have probably explored each others territory I don't see much harm in selling it, and it would shave some turns off Currency.

I'd send a unit N of Vijay to explore.

In Kyoto, I'd switch from the Budd temple to Hindu temple. In Vijay, are you planning to grow beyond the happy cap and then 2- or 3-whip a settler? In Delhi, given its lack of hammers, I'd switch from the missionary to a temple.

Kyoto would be a fantastic Legendary city and/or GP farm if we can count on being able to use its eastern food (i.e., not have it pillaged). It's also on a lake, so a lighthouse would give us extra food. I count a potential +18 or so excess, but the pop to work those tiles and run 9 specs would require the Globe to deal with happiness issues. In any case, it will be a great city.

Should we think about building Hagia Sophia in Drona? Only 10 turns if we direct the chop from the forest shared with Osaka. If nothing else we could really use the failure gold, but the faster improvements and extra culture (assuming Drona will be one of the 3 Legendaries) would help. I don't think (?) anybody else has Theology (the prereq) yet, though, so there's no big rush on that. Edit: Although... we could finish it in time for the 1000-year culture doubling to take effect if we built it soon.

Courthouses are expensive but would really help our economy--maybe in Drona soonish, but probably not yet anywhere else.

Edit after Xpost with vra: Nobody will trade or open borders yet. What do we need for that with Tokus? But yes, selling/gifting/trading away Paper just before UofS completes is a good idea that didn't make it into SH's PPP (I think).

vra379971 · Apr 24, 2012

Ah. Well, by all means build the Hagia if you can, and I'd agree on focusing on Hindu religious buildings first, and thinking about courthouses before markets come in. Also, by all means run the priest in Bolly.

SteelHorse · Apr 24, 2012

Sankore is ours on next click. Haggia went soon after restart to England. See (edited) continued turnset above.
I wasn't sure if we could steal a tech that was not tradable (not in Toku's screen) so I started down the Monarchy path (only 9 beakers in). Figured it wasn't a huge deal at 0% in any event.
Also just whipped first Islamic missionary. Built a farm to help with pop growth in Tokyo for a second whipped missionary in case you are wondering why in the heck there is a worker over there.

PS - Thinking now since Toku is not worst enemy, once we spread Islam to the new city, we should gift it back to Toku.
Also, Getting to Longbows would be a nice next step.

Signing off for tonight.

Trystero · Apr 25, 2012

Looks good SH. Good job securing Sankore. :goodjob:

Not too much time to look things over tonight, but I would vote for Currency next, or DR if we are also going for the Spiral Minaret (Edit: oh yeah, we need Monarchy for DR...).

kcd_swede · Apr 25, 2012

vra379971 said:
Ah. Well, by all means build the Hagia if you can, and I'd agree on focusing on Hindu religious buildings first, and thinking about courthouses before markets come in. Also, by all means run the priest in Bolly.

Hagia built already, too. Liz is going to be a real PITA. I will PM AlanH and see if he can change your status from lurker to active player. I don't want to tell you its ok to play a set until we know for sure that it is. You are more than welcome to sketch out a PPP in the meanmtime to keep things rolling.

Trystero said:
Looks good SH. Good job securing Sankore. Not too much time to look things over tonight, but I would vote for Currency next, or DR if we are also going for the Spiral Minaret (Edit: oh yeah, we need Monarchy for DR...).

I agree, nice job SH! I am very tempted to DOW Toku and get lost of +diplo from Liz and Hatty. Do we still have forced peace with him?

PS - Thinking now since Toku is not worst enemy, once we spread Islam to the new city, we should gift it back to Toku.

I think you mean Hindu, right? I believe gifts count as "traded with our worst enemy". So from an AP VC standpoint, it might be more effective to DOW Toku and let him capture it. :lol:

So... what do we want to do next? I am lost without an immediate goal in front of me. Spread Hindu and make hindu buildings, ofc, and maybe Music is the next most useful tech, unless we think to go after Liberalism, which is maybe a good idea.

Hammy is going to bring LB's along with his next stack, I'd bet, so we need to consider what to do with him.

vra379971 · Apr 25, 2012

No, think he means Islam to one of our cities

And then yes, Hindu there

Aaaandd...*sigh*

Options seem to be going for the Minaret now, looking at Culture, or going after Liberalism.

Of those choices, my thoughts would be to get Monarch by trade if at all possible, go after Education, bulb DR, build the Minaret and get Liberalism. No idea what to take with it though.

Would be good to work Phil in there too.

ChrisShaffer · Apr 25, 2012

Good job! It will be nice to have UoS funding our research!

Xcalibrator · Apr 25, 2012

Haven't opened the save but here are some thoughts. Our spy was caught in Kago on T147--bummer. I doubt we'll be able to trade for any techs; if I'm reading Anion's guide correctly, Toku requires that a tech be known by everybody (except us) in order to be willing to trade it to us. I don't think Toku has Currency, and since he's down to 1 city, his tech rate will be minimal, which could be a real problem with any future tech trading if the 100%-known requirement is correct. There must also be some diplo level we have to reach for trading, but I don't know what that is. Until we get a better understanding of what's required to get techs in trade I think we have to assume it ain't possible for awhile. (Yamps, are you out there? Help!) But... perhaps we should pick one AI, such as Shaka, and try to butter him up and find out what it takes to get open borders, etc. And maybe DoWing Toku, as kcd suggested, would be worth a shot at warming up Hatty and Liz.

Monarchy would be very nice to have, as the prereq to bulb DR and for the happiness under Hered Rule. I was hoping we could steal it from Toku but the loss of our spy sets that back, and it may happen again. Can we wait? If we could, Currency would be nice for the extra trade route (only +1 per city unless we get open borders, hah hah), but maybe there's something better. Or we could research Monarchy by hand. I consider that a "waste" when we could steal it (and not let those espi pts go to "waste") but maybe that's ~~shortsighted~~ taking too long a view.

Have we explored up north yet? Would it be better to send our settler up there instead of by the fish? The fish would raise our health cap a bit. Or should we settle another city on the island to gain another +2gpt trade route for when we get Currency?

Have we sold our map to anyone? That could get us a nice chunk of gold. Selling Paper would get us more gold, but that's giving away a lot, and then we wouldn't have a monopoly on map-selling. I think I'd sell our map whenever anybody has gold, but hold onto Paper for now and hope we can use it for trades or gifts. Edit: I'm assuming no one will sell/trade his map, but perhaps if we improve relations with somebody...

On techs, I echo what var said. Get Monarchy somehow, bulb (most of) DR with a Prophet (due soon with good odds from Bolly), build the Minaret, and try to pop some Great Scientists to bulb Education, Philo, Lib'ism (if we stay away from Machinery) or Printing Press. As I mentioned before, perhaps our next big goal (after the Minaret?) should be Lib'ism. Besides the free tech (assuming Liz doesn't beat us to it), we could gift/trade it to all the AI in the hope that they'll switch to Free Religion, making our diplomatic life much easier.

ChrisShaffer · Apr 25, 2012

With no tech brokering turned on plus a requirement that everyone but us know a tech before it can be traded, it's going to be darn near impossible to find any Gawa willing to trade tech.

Even if we get one of the Gawas willing to trade a tech, that Gawa can only trade techs that they themselves researched.

Xcalibrator · Apr 25, 2012

Assuming I'm right about Toku's trade willingness (risky!), that puts it very well, Chris. And without trade routes our research is going to be quite slow, even with UofS and the Minaret. It also seems that capturing key Cultural Wonders (Sistine) from Liz is going to very hard given her tech (and production) advantage, and I'd say our chances of beating her to the late-era techs and Cultural Wonders (Hollywood, Rock 'n' Roll, and Broadway, all of which give +50% cultural boosts) are nil. We urgently need to find where all the AI are to better assess where we stand, but I don't think that capturing London, etc. is possible, so Sistine is out, which hurts a Cultural attempt a lot.

That leaves a Religious win. For that, we either need to get open borders to send in the missionaries, or capture/gift infected cities. The latter may be necessary since we probably can't be friends with everybody, but I think we should aim for open borders with everyone we can. Given the religious situation, that means gifting them stuff. Lots of stuff. While we have stuff they don't, which may not be for long if we don't get our tech rate up. Which would be hugely helped by open borders and trade routes. Which requires giving them stuff to get open borders. :crazyeye:

Some strategic DoWs and use of AP resolutions will help, and we can hope that Liberalism/Free Speech will help us out later, too. There's still a 10% chance of a Toku DoWing at Pleased, but that's a lot better than 50% at Cautious and 90% at Annoyed, and not having to worry so much about being attacked means we could, perhaps, also pursue the Cultural win by devoting our resources to cathedrals and specs.

It might still be a good idea to keep Hammy as an enemy and secure defensive borders. But I'd urge some risky friend-making, probably starting with Shaka and the gals. This is just a vague argument that would need a lot of fleshing out, but what do you think?

ChrisShaffer · Apr 25, 2012

I think we're screwed.

vra379971 · Apr 25, 2012

ChrisShaffer said:
I think we're screwed.

...and there's the positivity that will lead us to victory. *headdesk* Our tech rate should actually hum quite nicely between Sankore (which is quite able to research by itself) and the Minaret (which will give us the cash to run research frequently despite trade routes being awhile in coming.) No need to be overly glum

Xcalibrator · Apr 25, 2012

vra379971 said:
[Prior to vra's editing:] I'd say the priority should be stealing Monarchy, researching Currency and bulbing DR, while working on spreading the Gospel of Shiva looking for Open Borders and backdoor AP.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

Our tech rate should actually hum quite nicely between Sankore (which is quite able to research by itself) and the Minaret (which will give us the cash to run research frequently despite trade routes being awhile in coming.) No need to be overly glum

I might be underestimating the power of the UofS and Minaret. But I still think that some bold/reckless friend-making is still the way to go. And/or maybe there's some way to turn everyone against Liz? :mischief:

Then we could swoop in and steal the Sistine. In any case, I think we have the outlines of a plan for the next turnset. Who wants it? kcd or vra (assuming he can be upgraded to full player)? If not, I should be available.

vra379971 · Apr 25, 2012

Didn't mean to edit that tech part out, but still think its a good plan.

I'd prefer not play the next turnset, but no matter who plays, we might as well outline another PPP. I guess the question is where we want to stop?

SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

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