SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

I gifted Toku some techs and resources to help him put up a little fight and perhaps keep the war going a little longer also to get some diplo benefits if we decide we wanted to befriend. Also hoping that he might research something useful for us. Instead of backfilling. He was not worst enemy with anyone. And saw little long term harm.
Makes sense. Now that Toku's such a pathetic wretch I don't know what to do with him--was just curious about the logic. BTW, sorry for my impatience with exploring N of Vijay--it' s just that I've been pushing for that for about 60 turns and it still ain't done. There's probably nothing useful up there but it's killing me not knowing, and there could be silver or a mountain pass like Kyoto. Well, there could be. ;)
 
Yeah. I was on job interview yesterday, and have a couple more coming up next week.

good luck


Personally, I think that makes Banking an even bigger priority,
agree


Banking seems to me to be the key. +4 for fair trades (gift banking); +5 for joint war; +6 for fav civic. That opens borders and buys us maps. A caravel gets missionaries into open borders, and gift the mish gets spread even if AI is running Theo.
my experience is that toku never trades maps.
i suppose at friendly, all AIs are willing to trade anything
and rereading I see all the +++


DR is great to have, too, if we can get SpM...
IF we get SpM; seems like a complete waste if we don't
I've agreed with the other gambles but not sure about this one

Anyway, green from me.
 
Anyway, green from me.

OK, that means its time to play. ;)

settling or courthouses got updated. And Currency, which is needed to get Banking, isn't listed anywhere. Good espi plan--ought to be able to steal some techs from Hammy once those Chouses are up.
cut/paste isn't perfect. I'll print out PPP and make hand notes for the additions. Be back in a short bit with our 1000AD victory. ;)
 
I'll start with the screenshots:


And some comments:
Monarchy was done in 2t as predicted. HR immediately.

Hatty made peace with Toku before we DOW'd Toku. But England was still at war and so I DOW'd Toku on schedule. Note, Hammy DOW'd us just before that, but I judged we had enough units to hold him off. Initial stack was 6cats,6HA, 1LB, and a handful of ax/spear/archer totalling 17units. They pillaged wheat and got mopped by our cats (which had fairly good survival rate at poor odds), then scrubbed by the axes. I did not have the foresight to have the medic unit there, so healing was slow until he got there from Kyoto. At that time there were about 5 units very wounded that retreated, and I judged that if I counterattacked I could finish them off and take Nippur and infect it with Hindu. Didn't work out as another LB and some Mace appeared, and cats had not fully healed. Lost a couple units retreating back to safety of VJ. We have enough units to hold, but would have to upgrade and/or build some xbows/mace to be able to carry out the Nippur capture. I think that we should capture Nippur and use the period of revolt to slide a settler up there to infect and gift. Babylon is the choke point, BTW. We could get there if we set our minds to it.

Meanwhile back on the ranch, we have +2 mutual war with Liz, and he will open borders. BUT, I had to close them again to prevent a knight/WE pair from killing Toku. I settled the fish city on the hill because that's where the dotmap shows, and I totally screwed up about the iron not being in the bfc. However, if that is the city we want to give Toku in peace deal, its just as well, if you ask me.

I did finally manage to steal Compass. We are now a 4t break even at 20% to Optics, but seeing the map now I'm not sure Optics is going to do much for us. :crazyeye: There appears to be a double ring of mountains around England and around the sea... but there must be a way in if the units are getting out. Maybe up by Cyrusgawa (who we have met).

Meanwhile back on the ranch, GK is taking cities from Hatty now. We could DOW GK for +diplo with Hatty, but looking at GK's stack that might entail some risk unless we are in full-scale war mode. It would probably allow us OB with Hatty, though.

I built Lahore near Tokyo and infected it. Hatty will take that and then we don't need OB with her except to reach the others. So we do. But we can keep Tokyo for a good long while since Hatty is busy up north. If we want. I've just been spreading Islam from there, but the city could do much more.

We have enough CH's to build the FP. Where should we do that?

Hammy still won't talk to us, probably because of our losses.

We got a GSci, who is being held atm. Will half bulb Edu if we want. But no DR, and the longer we wait the less its worth the risk of not getting the SpMin.

Maybe Currency/banking next is better than Optics, judging from the map. But there still is 1 opponent (a team of two) that we have not met and might require ships to get there if Neil is wicked (does the sun rise in the east?), so could be useful. Also could potentially circumvent the need for OB with frickin everyone to get missionaries about. So I'd recommend doing that anyhow.

Lost a galley to hammy trireme, but it had already delivered its payload to the island so at least it wasn't as bad as it could have been. Carvels will be useful to protect sea resources anyhow.

Esp is on Hammy now, btw. Toku has nothing else we want and won't get anything else, either. But he must have gotten a GArt bomb, because he popped his borders and took Kyoto's sheep and mine.:mad: Maybe not... have to check the logs I guess. But he's got 93% culture on those plots now- a big jump from before.

I'm feeling pretty comfortable that we have the game in hand and should win from this position. However, we will likely be in the space age when that happens, at the rate this is going. I think Banking and mercantilism should get us more OB and speed things up substantially if we go for the AP route. But we'll likely want to DOW GK in that case and get OB with Hatty. Take a city/infect/give it back.

Near term I think we should take Hammy's stuff all the way to and including Babylon. Then keep that choke point. He can have a new crap city near VJ and convert to hindu, imo.

Bah... this one is a real puzzle. I hope Vra has some good ideas and can get a PPP draft written soon.

Note, our progress towards culture vc is painfully slow... we're probably looking at around 1900AD. I think we could do better with pure military. I think AP/UN is our fastest way to win from here. UN is competitive because spreading hindu will take so long on this map. It also has the advantage that if we get to be biggest (and we are almost there already) we can gift the UN to everyones worst enemy, Toku.

Oh well... I guess I better upload the save and get the log. Note, my Buffy log did not save.:mad:
 
Here is your Session Turn Log from 740 AD to 1080 AD:

Spoiler :
Turn 147, 740 AD: Gandhi has completed University of Sankore!

Turn 148, 760 AD: Agra has been founded.
Turn 148, 760 AD: You have discovered Monarchy!

Turn 149, 780 AD: Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 149, 780 AD: The borders of Tokyo have expanded!
Turn 149, 780 AD: Tokugawa adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 150, 800 AD: Hinduism has spread in Holy Cow.
Turn 150, 800 AD: Hinduism has spread in Varanasi.
Turn 150, 800 AD: Hammuragawa has declared war on you!

Turn 151, 820 AD: Hinduism has spread in Agra.
Turn 151, 820 AD: The borders of Drona have expanded!
Turn 151, 820 AD: You have trained a Spearman in Vijayanagara. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 151, 820 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Osaka. Work has now begun on a Hindu Temple.
Turn 151, 820 AD: Tokugawa has made peace with Hatsegawa!

Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 19 (Bollywood) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Longbowman (6.60)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 24.5%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
..
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 16 (Pataliputra) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Horse Archer (6.60)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 33.7%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 16 (Pataliputra) is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Hammuragawa's Horse Archer has defeated Gandhi's Catapult 16 (Pataliputra)!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 18 (Holy Cow) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Horse Archer (6.48)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 49.0%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 18 (Holy Cow) is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 17 (Holy Cow) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Horse Archer (6.48)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 49.0%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Hammuragawa's Horse Archer is hit for 17 (73/100HP)
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 15 (Holy Cow) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Horse Archer (5.40)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 59.4%
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 13 (Bollywood) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 67.1%
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult has defeated Gandhi's Catapult 13 (Bollywood)!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 25 (Vijayanagara) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 25 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 25 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult has defeated Gandhi's Axeman 25 (Vijayanagara)!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 23 (Bollywood) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 23 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 23 (Bollywood) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 27 (Delhi) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 27 (Delhi) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 22 (Vijayanagara) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Axeman (5.13)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 67.5%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Combat: +75%)
..Turn 152, 840 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 22 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Axeman!

Turn 153, 860 AD: You have declared war on Tokugawa!
Turn 153, 860 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 22 (Vijayanagara) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Axeman (4.45)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Combat Odds: 74.5%
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Combat: +75%)
..Turn 153, 860 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 22 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Axeman!
Turn 153, 860 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi) (4.95) vs Hammuragawa's Horse Archer (4.35)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Combat Odds: 70.6%
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
..Turn 153, 860 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi) has defeated Hammuragawa's Horse Archer!
Turn 153, 860 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Varanasi. Work has now begun on Moai Statues.

Turn 154, 880 AD: Hammuragawa's Longbowman (6.00) vs Gandhi's Archer 8 (Bollywood) (6.66)
Turn 154, 880 AD: Combat Odds: 34.4%
Turn 154, 880 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 154, 880 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 154, 880 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
..Turn 154, 880 AD: Hammuragawa's Longbowman has defeated Gandhi's Archer 8 (Bollywood)!

Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 23 (Bollywood) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 23 (Bollywood) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 155, 900 AD: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Antoine Laurent Lavoisier (Great Scientist) has been born in Bollywood (Gandhi)!
Turn 155, 900 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Vijayanagara. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00) vs Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi) (7.29)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 28.1%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Combat: +25%)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult (3.50) vs Gandhi's Archer 7 (Bombay) (3.92)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 36.2%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Archer 7 (Bombay) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Chariot (4.27) vs Gandhi's Spearman 2 (Vijayanagara) (8.08)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 2.4%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Chariot is hit for 27 (62/100HP)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Spearman 2 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Chariot!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult (3.00) vs Gandhi's Archer 11 (Vijayanagara) (4.37)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 24.7%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Archer 11 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Chariot (3.12) vs Gandhi's Spearman 3 (Vijayanagara) (6.44)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 1.8%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Combat: +100%)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Spearman 3 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Chariot!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Spearman (2.86) vs Gandhi's Axeman 23 (Bollywood) (6.57)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 3.0%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Combat: +75%)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 23 (Bollywood) has defeated Hammuragawa's Spearman!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Horse Archer (2.88) vs Gandhi's Spearman 3 (Vijayanagara) (6.44)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 1.3%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Combat: +100%)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Spearman 3 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Horse Archer!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Horse Archer (2.10) vs Gandhi's Spearman 3 (Vijayanagara) (6.44)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Horse Archer is hit for 27 (8/100HP)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Horse Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Spearman 3 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Horse Archer!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Horse Archer (2.52) vs Gandhi's Spearman 5 (Vijayanagara) (6.16)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 0.9%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Combat: +100%)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Spearman 5 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Horse Archer!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Hammuragawa's Longbowman (2.64) vs Gandhi's Catapult 22 (Vijayanagara) (5.00)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 1.6%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
..Turn 155, 900 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 22 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Longbowman!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Mani (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 156, 920 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 5 (Drona) (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (3.00)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 98.0%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
..Turn 156, 920 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 5 (Drona) has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 21 (Drona) (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (4.80)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 71.3%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 21 (Drona) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 21 (Drona) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
..Turn 156, 920 AD: Tokugawa's Archer has defeated Gandhi's Catapult 21 (Drona)!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Lysander (Great General) has been born in Kagoshima (Tokugawa)!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Islam has spread in Kyoto.
Turn 156, 920 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman (6.00) vs Gandhi's Axeman 7 (Bollywood) (5.00)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 73.0%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
..Turn 156, 920 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman has defeated Gandhi's Axeman 7 (Bollywood)!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman (4.80) vs Gandhi's Axeman 5 (Drona) (4.29)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 81.8%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Combat: +75%)
..Turn 156, 920 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman has defeated Gandhi's Axeman 5 (Drona)!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Tokugawa's Archer (3.24) vs Gandhi's Axeman 28 (Holy Cow) (7.75)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
..Turn 156, 920 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 28 (Holy Cow) has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Nebuchadrezzar II (Great General) has been born in Kyoto (Gandhi)!
Turn 156, 920 AD: The Apostolic Palace voting members have announced their decision: Apostolic Palace Election (Winner Proposes Apostolic Palace Resolutions) (Requires 56 of 142 Total Votes)

Turn 157, 940 AD: Hatsegawa adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 158, 960 AD: Islam has spread in Osaka.
Turn 158, 960 AD: Calcutta has been founded.
Turn 158, 960 AD: Hinduism has spread in Calcutta.
Turn 158, 960 AD: You have trained Islamic Missionary in Tokyo. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 158, 960 AD: Hammuragawa's Trireme (2.20) vs Gandhi's Galley 1 (Delhi) (1.42)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 91.0%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
..Turn 158, 960 AD: Hammuragawa's Trireme has defeated Gandhi's Galley 1 (Delhi)!

Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 1 (Bollywood) (6.60) vs Hammuragawa's Longbowman (4.48)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 84.6%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Combat: +10%)
..Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 1 (Bollywood) has defeated Hammuragawa's Longbowman!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 2 (Bombay) (6.00) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.50)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 67.6%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Combat: +10%)
..Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 2 (Bombay) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (4.00)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Combat: -25%)
..Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 23 (Bollywood) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (4.00)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Combat: -25%)
..Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 23 (Bollywood) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 22 (Vijayanagara) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (4.00)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Combat: -25%)
..Turn 159, 980 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 22 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!

Turn 160, 1000 AD: You have trained a Axeman in Varanasi. Work has now begun on Moai Statues.
Turn 160, 1000 AD: The borders of Agra have expanded!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Hammuragawa's Maceman (9.60) vs Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi) (6.75)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Combat Odds: 88.5%
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (Combat: +75%)
..Turn 160, 1000 AD: Hammuragawa's Maceman has defeated Gandhi's Axeman 21 (Delhi)!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: William T. G. Morton (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 15 (Holy Cow) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Maceman (10.08)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Combat Odds: 8.7%
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
..Turn 161, 1010 AD: Hammuragawa's Maceman has defeated Gandhi's Catapult 15 (Holy Cow)!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 17 (Holy Cow) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Maceman (8.52)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Combat Odds: 23.4%
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
..Turn 161, 1010 AD: Hammuragawa's Maceman has defeated Gandhi's Catapult 17 (Holy Cow)!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 18 (Holy Cow) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Maceman (3.48)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Combat Odds: 98.8%
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 29 (Bollywood) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Maceman (3.50)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Combat Odds: 92.2%
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Combat: +75%)
..Turn 161, 1010 AD: Hammuragawa's Maceman has defeated Gandhi's Axeman 29 (Bollywood)!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Geronimo (Great General) has been born in Akkad (Hammuragawa)!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 27 (Delhi) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Maceman (1.20)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Combat: +75%)
.Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 27 (Delhi) has defeated Hammuragawa's Maceman!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Islam has spread in Drona.
Turn 161, 1010 AD: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: The borders of Vijayanagara have expanded!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Merit Ptah (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Hammuragawa's Crossbowman (6.00) vs Gandhi's Catapult 19 (Bollywood) (6.25)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Combat Odds: 44.5%
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
..Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 19 (Bollywood) has defeated Hammuragawa's Crossbowman!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Genghigawa has declared war on Hatsegawa!

Turn 162, 1020 AD: Gandhi adopts Caste System!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: The borders of Pataliputra have expanded!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Hammuragawa's Maceman (9.60) vs Gandhi's Axeman 27 (Delhi) (8.50)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Combat Odds: 69.7%
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Combat: +75%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
..Turn 162, 1020 AD: Hammuragawa's Maceman has defeated Gandhi's Axeman 27 (Delhi)!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Hammuragawa's Maceman (8.80) vs Gandhi's Axeman 22 (Vijayanagara) (7.73)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Combat Odds: 70.1%
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
..Turn 162, 1020 AD: Hammuragawa's Maceman has defeated Gandhi's Axeman 22 (Vijayanagara)!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00) vs Gandhi's Catapult 18 (Holy Cow) (6.25)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Combat Odds: 36.7%
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
..Turn 162, 1020 AD: Hammuragawa's Crossbowman (6.00) vs Gandhi's Catapult 22 (Vijayanagara) (6.25)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Combat Odds: 57.7%
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
..Turn 162, 1020 AD: Hammuragawa's Crossbowman has defeated Gandhi's Catapult 22 (Vijayanagara)!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Hammuragawa's Crossbowman (6.00) vs Gandhi's Catapult 20 (Osaka) (6.25)
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Combat Odds: 57.7%
Turn 162, 1020 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
..Turn 162, 1020 AD: Hammuragawa's Crossbowman has defeated Gandhi's Catapult 20 (Osaka)!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Werner Heisenberg (Great Scientist) has been born in Dur-Kurigalzu (Hammuragawa)!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Shakagawa adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 165, 1050 AD: Tokugawa's Archer (3.60) vs Gandhi's Axeman 28 (Holy Cow) (10.50)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
..Turn 165, 1050 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 28 (Holy Cow) has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Tokugawa's Archer (3.30) vs Gandhi's Axeman 28 (Holy Cow) (10.50)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
..Turn 165, 1050 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 28 (Holy Cow) has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Shah Jahan (Great Merchant) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 166, 1060 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Vijayanagara!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Vijayanagara!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Pataliputra has become happy.
Turn 166, 1060 AD: The borders of Kyoto are about to expand.
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Drona will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Vijayanagara will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 166, 1060 AD: The borders of Kyoto have expanded!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Genghigawa adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Cyrusgawa has declared war on Hatsegawa!

Turn 167, 1070 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Vijayanagara!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Vijayanagara!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Bollywood has become happy.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Drona has grown to size 10.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Delhi will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Vijayanagara has grown to size 5.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Osaka will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Hatsegawa has 80 gold available for trade.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Elizagawa has 170 gold available for trade.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Shakagawa has 5 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: The borders of Calcutta are about to expand.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Lahore has been founded.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Delhi will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Osaka will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Tokyo will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Varanasi will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: The borders of Calcutta have expanded!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: A Cottage has been destroyed by a marauding Babylonian Horse Archer!

Turn 168, 1080 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Vijayanagara!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Vijayanagara!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Delhi has grown to size 8.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Delhi has become unhappy.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Osaka has grown to size 9.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Osaka has become unhappy.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Tokyo has grown to size 5.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Varanasi has grown to size 5.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: You are the worst enemy of Shakagawa.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hinduism has spread in Lahore.


Forgot to mention that we have 2 GG's that need orders. I missed that in the PPP that one was sitting there. Do we want a woody3 or another medic or to settle or just let them sit there doing nothing as I have done so far?:crazyeye:

Maybe we sould settle a crap city and infect when we take Nippur, and see if Liz will take it? Or someone else? Keep an eye on worst enemy status... if giving city to someones worst enemy, that causes negative diplo, but losing it in war or giving it for peace offering does not.
 
Wow, lots to absorb, and I haven't even opened the save, but that won't stop me from commenting. :rolleyes: Currency will give us an extra 26 gpt or so, and is needed for Banking, of course--I think we need it ASAP.

Even if we fail on the Minaret, the failure gold will be at a 2.75 hammer multiplier, which is hard to beat. There's a risk of sinking a lot of beakers/Prophet into DR and having somebody build the Minaret before we can even start, of course. And the odds don't look good for popping a Prophet any time soon.

We need to spread Buddhism and Islam to Bolly so it can build monasteries and increase our tech rate.

[Edit: kcd's protoplan looks good. Go for Currency and Banking, switch to Merc'lism, make friends, open borders, infect with Hinduism using missionaries on caravels. Or capture cities, infect, and return to the recalcitrant (such as Hammy). I think the end is not too far off and we need to concentrate on speed. We might just have a shot at a medal here.

kcd, did you sell our map to anyone? Our monopoly on map-trading won't last long, if it isn't already gone.

Game Report updated. vra, are you available? If not, SH, do you want to pad your previous turnset? And if no to both, I'm fairly available.]
 
A few thoughts after looking at the save:

It looks like AP is only route to quick victory, and Dom/Con is the most viable alternative.

I agree with finishing Optics. We will need caravels for coastal defense and maybe to find the last AIs. I agree with Currency next. If we are going to stay on the war path we are going to need Engineering and trebuchets soon(the faster road movement would help too), but maybe not until after Banking.

Hatty will give us 90 gold for our map. Shaka will give 30 gold (all he has ATM).

We could put another city 1S of Bollywood's copper mine. It could work/share cottages with Bollywood (so it could work mines) and Pata and work the iron mine.

Capturing Babylon seems like a good short term goal. It has the Great Wall and the Great Lighthouse, which would help address two of our immediate needs (gold and espionage).
 
[Xpost with Trys: Sweet, I forgot about the Great Lighthouse in Babylon. :) I still urge Currency before finishing Optics--gives us 22 more gpt.]

Looked at the save.
  • Yup, we want Currency ASAP, which is 3 turns.
  • Two AIs have Paper, so we need to get what we can for our map ASAP. They won't trade away their maps, but I don't think they'll gain much from getting ours.
  • Varanasi's borders will pop in 10 turns to cover the whales--we'll need a workboat and probably Bombay's trireme.
  • We should build some more cheapo archers for HR happiness. They don't have to be built in cities with barracks, which brings up...
  • We're building several front-line units in cities without barracks. Stop it! ;) Or build barracks first. Or build archers for warm-body garrison duty (see above).
It looks like kcd was working on a plan for this during his turnset, but let's talk about city captures, gifts, and infection: We should open borders with Liz and hlep her take Toku's last city. She has only 2 units for the job so we need to help with bombarding, etc. Send over Kyoto's units for this. When she takes Kago then Toku's culture goes away and Kyoto gets its sheep back. When we get OBs with Liz we send in the Hindu missionary. Kago will now be a perfect city for tech stealing, and its distance costs will be a drain on her finances to boot. [We can't capture it and gift it to Liz because it's not contiguous with her territory.]

Hatty: Run an artist in Lahore to pop the borders (what the heck--it gives us a little cultural boost to potential spy missions) and then give it to Hatty. Now she's infected and it doesn't cost us money any more.

There's a tile 3N2W of Vijay that we can settle once we take Nippur. Once we get Hammy down to 2 cities he'll take it gladly, or we might be able to give it to Shaka since (I think) it'll count as being contiguous with his territory even with mountains in the way. Shaka is already infected with Hinduism so this isn't really necessary but it might be well placed for tech stealing. Just a thought, and there's no rush.

We need to take out Hammy--he only has 4 cities and Babylon is nice--great defensive spot, too, although hopefully we won't need to worry about that since we'll be buddies with everybody. We could leave him a couple cities if we decide that's a good idea. But if we leave him alive we'll either need to capture/infect/gift, or give him the 3N2W Trojan city. I think Babylon would make a swell Forbidden City.
 
[Xpost with Trys: Sweet, I forgot about the Great Lighthouse in Babylon. :) I still urge Currency before finishing Optics--gives us 22 more gpt.]

Looked at the save.
  • Yup, we want Currency ASAP, which is 3 turns.


  • OK- If it is 3 turns, then yes, do Currency now.

    I think Babylon would make a swell Forbidden City.

    Agreed.
 
kcd, do you remember how many EPs it took to steal Compass? I'm just thinking it might be cheaper to devote our commerce toward EPs instead of beakers if stealing is cheaper than researching. Liz with Kago would work very well for that--even better if we could get a missionary in there, but I forgot that Merc'lism is quite a ways off.

Before letting Toku die, let's make sure I understand the AP victory vote. We own the AP so we are a candidate for victory. If nobody else is running Hinduism as state religion then we are the only candidate and all we need is >75% of the weighted vote (by city population with double weight if you're running the AP religion) without providing more than 75% of the weighted vote ourselves. Right? (Yes, we also need to have every AI be infected.) If so, then there's no reason to let Toku live, right?

[Xpost with Trys again. :) If we sell our map for 90g, as you pointed out, we can get Currency in 2 turns. And then finish Optics in 2 or 3 more.]
 
Should we keep Toku alive until we have mercantilism? We want other civ's hating him instead of us.
Liz's two units aren't enough to take the city, but we could soften it up I suppose. And the sneaky easy UN path (assuming we can build the UN) requires us to keep him around until the end.

Are we going for culture, religion or UN?

Perhaps lizziegawa's units came by galley NE of Elephantine?

Agree we want Babylon.
Agree Currency before Optics.

Spoiler :
Oh Yeah, we can't go to Free Religion. But we could gift Liberalism if we got it. Spend GS on Education, once we are ready to tech toward it. We can't get Philosophy w Great Scientist anymore.
 
How's this for a plan:
Give fish city to Toku. OB with Liz. Help her take Kago and infect it. Close borders with Liz. Toku converts to Hindu and allows us to do a number of resolutions that aren't available without 2 full members. We have both infected, and work on a strategy to make someone happy. Drawback: close borders with liz. Gifting city to her WE causes negatives. I suppose we could empty the fish city and hope Toku is smart enough to capture it? He sure was hot to go after Drona with one warrior.:lol:

Alternative: Gift city to Toku, take Kago ourselves. Infect Liz some other way.

Optics (caravels) will cut about 20 turns of movement for missionaries to distant civs. Currency probably doesn't delay that much. Two civs already have Optics, so the nav bonus is surely missed anyhow. Currency also gives the option of going to banking sooner, which might be best. Caravel spreading won't work until we get them to OB with us.

Happy plan: Either GK or Hatty should be doable, but not both. We've already gifted CoL to GK, so that maybe is a good target. Then we need to DOW Hatty asap, and let him take Lahore, or even Tokyo - who cares? (religion AP only really requires we have 1 city). War with Hatty should get us OB with GK... but... how do we get a missionary past the shaka gauntlet??? Maybe a real strong escort force? (See, that's where a caravel might simplify things).

Hammy gets a capture/infect strategy or is just simply eliminated. The benefit of not eliminating is that we don't get close borders with Shaka. The drawback is we can count on never ever getting his votes. But if we can make resolutions to get everyone at war with him... might be nice.

That leaves Liz and two unknowns (team) to infect, iirc. Then phony wars and merc until we win. :)

Lots of phony wars will become real, as will the business with Hammy. So do not neglect military. Lit for HEpic might be interesting, after currency/banking/optics in whatever order looks best.

Compass required about 1150 EP, and with stationary spy 5 turns that was halved. We had about 700EP on Toku, made about 18/t at the end. He was outspending us, so it cost more than if we were outspending him. Hammy will be making tons of EP by now, I think, so stealing from him won't happen until we marginalize him, probably.

Before letting Toku die, let's make sure I understand the AP victory vote. We own the AP so we are a candidate for victory. If nobody else is running Hinduism as state religion then we are the only candidate and all we need is >75% of the weighted vote (by city population with double weight if you're running the AP religion) without providing more than 75% of the weighted vote ourselves. Right? (Yes, we also need to have every AI be infected.) If so, then there's no reason to let Toku live, right?
That's the basics. Note, pop is doubled for people running Hindu as state relig, so if we get a vote opponent it needs to be a small one, and preferably one everyone hates. Like Toku? Optimally, we'll hold near 74.99% of the total votes, and just need one AI to be friendly, with one minor hindu city. Want to avoid infecting so much someone who likes us that they switch to hindu. Safest with a founder of another religion, like the bhudist founder, as friendly target... but doable with care even without that.

I think we can get friendly faster than we can get spread everywhere. And we should think about a UN back-up (no MM until we know we can't make religion work)... though I suspect someone else gets the UN before we can build it. Taking Hammy could help us become eligible anyhow.

I did sell the map to one AI for 90gold (shaka, I think). Note, getting a map does not provide contact between AI even if they see each other on the map. Contact requires physical contact. AI with less than 40gold I decided to wait as I thought I might get more by waiting a bit. Doesn't look that way, so sell as much as you can get for.

Perhaps lizziegawa's units came by galley NE of Elephantine?
The first sighting of Liz troops was in north Hatty-land with the spy. I suspect they came a long way.

As per usual, whether or not this is all do-able in a reasonable time-span could depend on the map. So we can't leave Optics too long. If we need submarines to get missionaries transported, for example, we have a different sort of tech path. Just saying... lots of intangibles. Assume we can work around whatever additional obstacles we find. If so, we should post a very respectable finish date.
 
Not available yet, need some time to get game to work and solve the issues.

I agree on Currency and keeping Toku alive, sadly. As for gambling....its a SGOTM, and to gambles go the medals :p How much would DR cost to hard tech? At THIS stage, there's no danger in losing the Minaret, its merely Emperor, and placement on tree means if we want it, we get it.
 
Not available yet, need some time to get game to work and solve the issues.

I agree on Currency and keeping Toku alive, sadly. As for gambling....its a SGOTM, and to gambles go the medals :p How much would DR cost to hard tech? At THIS stage, there's no danger in losing the Minaret, its merely Emperor, and placement on tree means if we want it, we get it.

Well, we do know that Hatty founded Islam, so she has DR since a Loooong time ago. Odd that she/he has not built the darn thing already. Now that she/he is losing cities to GK, its probably not a top priority for her/him. ;) So we have some time.

I'd suggest Xcal put together a PPP. I don't think MM details are so important at this stage of the game, but sort out the best tech path and diplo strategy and whatnot.

Personally, I think the chance of getting Elizagawa a Hindu city without shuffling a missionary all the way around the donut is a gift-horse we should not look in the mouth. But maybe I'm beating a dead horse? That would be a horse of a different color. :lol:

I'd like to keep Toku around as whipping boy until at least merc, and also as a possible UN opponent. Can see advantages if he converts to Hindu. Trick is getting him a crap city that he won't lose right away, preferably without making worst enemy displeasures.

If SH joins the discussion before Xcal's PPP is ready to go, you guys can decide who executes amongst yourselves. But time is a-tickin'... and we'll want to go slow in the end-game... AP votes often swing on one or two votes.
 
How's this for a plan:
Give fish city to Toku. OB with Liz. Help her take Kago and infect it. Close borders with Liz. Toku converts to Hindu and allows us to do a number of resolutions that aren't available without 2 full members. We have both infected, and work on a strategy to make someone happy. Drawback: close borders with liz. Gifting city to her WE causes negatives. I suppose we could empty the fish city and hope Toku is smart enough to capture it? He sure was hot to go after Drona with one warrior.:lol:
I like this, and the whole plan--will try to get a PPP tonight. But... We're currently at war with Toku. If we give him a city we'll be at peace for 10 turns, so we can't help Liz with Kago. How about we bombard Kago and knock him down to 1 unit, then give him peace and fish city=Agra (can we do both at the same time so we don't have to worry about him refusing to talk--and accept a city--after we make peace?), then open borders with Liz? If combined peace/gift won't work I'll not open borders with Liz until we've given Toku Agra. I'd guess that with only 2 units, Liz won't try to take Agra, too, so wouldn't close borders (and take another relations hit) unless it's necessary. Hmm, also need to be sure that Toku would accept Agra--might be too much of our culture pressure on it? Actually, how does City Flip After Conquest affect things? We don't want to flip his last city and destroy him, right?

Edit: Also, we must infect Liz-owned Kago while we have OB with her!
 
I like this, and the whole plan--will try to get a PPP tonight. But... We're currently at war with Toku. If we give him a city we'll be at peace for 10 turns, so we can't help Liz with Kago. How about we bombard Kago and knock him down to 1 unit, then give him peace and fish city=Agra (can we do both at the same time so we don't have to worry about him refusing to talk--and accept a city--after we make peace?), then open borders with Liz? If combined peace/gift won't work I'll not open borders with Liz until we've given Toku Agra. I'd guess that with only 2 units, Liz won't try to take Agra, too, so wouldn't close borders (and take another relations hit) unless it's necessary. Hmm, also need to be sure that Toku would accept Agra--might be too much of our culture pressure on it? Actually, how does City Flip After Conquest affect things? We don't want to flip his last city and destroy him, right?

Edit: Also, we must infect Liz-owned Kago while we have OB with her!

Are we at war with Toku right now? Oh man... :lol: talk about short-term memory!

Then its even easier. Like you say, bomb him to crud, and then make a peace deal where we give him Agra. As long as its white in the diplo screen, he'll fall all over himself to accept. No hit on Liz diplo. I think that part is easy.

Closing borders with Liz does not suffer diplo penalty unless done at the request of another. So if its been ten turns, you can cancel any deal without diplo repercussions. Watch Liz, and watch the cult borders. If she/he has a way to get there without our open borders, it doesn't matter much whether we open or close. Eventually he is toast in that case.

But if we can provide a barrier to keep them apart, we should... Toku would make a good whipping boy. But we can make Hatty one if Toku does not survive. I think you are right that Liz should make peace with Toku without eliminating him, if he gets Agra.

I'm not worried about Agra flipping back to us. Its going to have a Palace, right? ;) Glad it does not have Samurai iron now. :p
 
Keep those spies movin'. If this is a Pangea-labyrinth its a different story than if its an Astro-needed map.

Speculative: Neil has made the 2-team in an Astro/optics reachable continent that is a miniature of ours: small island in the middle of a donut, with two teamed AI.

AFAIK, when you meet an AI team member you automatically have contact with both members of the team. So that team is still to be found, and there is surely something new to adjust for when we find them.

Plow ahead to curr/banking, then its gotta be optics. After that, we can discuss the options... in a relig VC you usually look for tech that the AI don't aim for, so you have stuff to gift. But thats for the future.

And yes, OB with Liz (or anybody else we can get to) means infection time! Should always have 2-3 H-Mish either standing by or in queue.

Musings: would Hammy take a city for peace that wasn't VJ? North island city is too good for him. Maybe a crap city north of the ruins of Nippur.

BTW: Nippur had 2archer (now LB) and a spear. That's it.
 
I'd also like to see your plan for DOW on Hatty and escort a H-miss to GK.;) Or maybe a dow on GK to get OB with Hatty is the way. Need more folks thinmking about this!

SH has been exploring the Relig VC lately, so maybe he has some thoughts????:king:
 
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