SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I don't think she teleports to our corn, I was thinking she'd go to the Liz Archer marked spot. That would mean it would take her around 10 turns or more to re-target Gateway w/ the SoD. We will have to track her movements. We can get our boat (t127) and gift Gateway to Genghis. However, then we need the Corn/coastal city in order to upgrade to a caravel. It'd be nice to have Optics by ~turn 130.
Usually an AI declares war as soon as their SoD steps onto a targets land. I've never seen this situation before.
I suppose we could try the trade embargo first, making sure she still has 10 gold left, and see where the units go.
If that teleports her stack onto our corn, perhaps (Liberate) our new city to her and beg 10 gold for peace. We have another settler that can settle on that corn just south of Ghenghi's borders and build another boat. With culture pressure it ought to get a forest after 10 turns I'd imagine.
Or maybe Hatty's stack of Doom being teleported onto our corn also delays the war until she can move the SoD off our territory to dec us? I agree with Shulec that we should test this.
If her stack does teleport to our land and she tries to DoW, they will be sent far far away. I think we can delay the DoW with this embargo.
I think having her stack stuck in our land with Toku's borders closed to her would be awesome! She might run around for 10 turns trying to get out of our land first. But again, not likely.
We should mobilize a stack of axes. They will probably be too late to protect Gateway, but we can give that to Genghis after the boat. The Axes can protect the Corn/coastal site because if we can't upgrade the trireme, we might have a useless boat floating over there.
Delaying the DoW a number of turns with the embargo sounds very appealing if it works. We just need to stall until we can get the boat out and a Hindu Missionary back to Gateway. Once gifted to Ghenghigawa, Hats will have no way to reach us, and we can settle the Corn site for a boat upgrade and upgrade the boat whenever we wish.
It is safer and slower to (Liberate) Gateway and beg for 10 gold. Who can say when the Corn site will be able to produce a boat? Hopefully Hatty would switch her war to Liz and call ours off.
Definitely need some major testing on what happens when a SoD gets teleported into our borders with an AI that is intent on attacking us. Does the DoW come immediately? Or does the SoD wander until it can get outside our borders and then DoW's? Can a 2nd mini stack cause a wardec by invading up near Gateway while the main stack is puttering around?
Good idea. After we get the boat (t127) we can debate gift to Genghis or Liberate to Hats. I'd kinda like to get Genghis in the family of voters, but I like he idea of a 10 turn peace treaty. And yes, we will want to sit on the corn (not settle) until we have the tech and the money to upgrade our trireme.
With us as a war target, is it even possible for her accept our beg for peace?
bcool
Deity
Coming late to the party and out of town so I can test to help out, but maybe I have 1 useful idea to contribute...
Send the GG to the city building the boat, free upgrade to caravel and +3 movement wouldn't be that bad for our trireme.
Assuming the GG can get thru Hatse land...
Send the GG to the city building the boat, free upgrade to caravel and +3 movement wouldn't be that bad for our trireme.
Assuming the GG can get thru Hatse land...
Rifled through all my turnset screenshots to see if I glimpsed Hatty's lead stack. Found one.
I screened it automatically and it didn't penetrate my brain beyond "poor Liz" or some other stupid thought.
Looking back I have no excuse. Liz is most likely in the opposite direction that the units are facing since we spotted Liz's scout in the east.
It appears that the small stack ran into something on the way through to us as one of the war chariots is now damaged according to Shulec's latest screenshot. Counting tiles, it appears not to have halted to heal.
I screened it automatically and it didn't penetrate my brain beyond "poor Liz" or some other stupid thought.
Spoiler :
Looking back I have no excuse. Liz is most likely in the opposite direction that the units are facing since we spotted Liz's scout in the east.
It appears that the small stack ran into something on the way through to us as one of the war chariots is now damaged according to Shulec's latest screenshot. Counting tiles, it appears not to have halted to heal.
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No doubt everyone is aware of the unknown "brown" culture east of Byblos and north of Alexandria. There lies one of the AI Team, I'm quite certain.
Based on religion spread (commented on before), the other AI Team is probably just northeast of Cyrusgawa or thereabouts.
We seem to be very close to contact with both members of the AI Team. OK, maybe not so close to the final member of the AI Team, but probably close enough to make RL DV on t136 quite feasible.
How close are we to 25t of Open Borders with Hammuragawa? That will get us to +9 visible Diplomacy. 100t of resources will get us to +10 visible Diplomacy. We probably need +12 visible Diplomacy to gain his RL DV votes, right?
Sun Tzu Wu
Based on religion spread (commented on before), the other AI Team is probably just northeast of Cyrusgawa or thereabouts.
We seem to be very close to contact with both members of the AI Team. OK, maybe not so close to the final member of the AI Team, but probably close enough to make RL DV on t136 quite feasible.
How close are we to 25t of Open Borders with Hammuragawa? That will get us to +9 visible Diplomacy. 100t of resources will get us to +10 visible Diplomacy. We probably need +12 visible Diplomacy to gain his RL DV votes, right?
Sun Tzu Wu
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Hastegawa's SoD appears to be waiting for reinforcements or possibly delaying its DoW for other reasons. Perhaps, it doesn't want to DoW us while still a War with a strong opponent (Elizagawa).
We need about 2+ Spearmen to defend against those Chariots in her SoD. Axemen make up nearly all main line units in the area and they defend rather poorly versus Chariot attacks.
Sun Tzu Wu
We need about 2+ Spearmen to defend against those Chariots in her SoD. Axemen make up nearly all main line units in the area and they defend rather poorly versus Chariot attacks.
Sun Tzu Wu
We think the brown culture is Ghenghis. Unless you are seeing two different shades of brown and maybe one is Ghenghi and the other is Sitting Bull?
Testing by Bcool indicated we need Hamma to +10 friendly before he will vote for us.
Testing complete. I was able to replicate the conditions pretty close to what we are facing using Joao in place of Hatty in the test game. I gave him some military and declared war on his friends and was quite rude until he went into WHEOOHRN mode. Then I waited 30 turns.
Conclusions:
1)Begging 10 gold does guarantee peace. However, it did not appear to cancel the war planning and the different AI's all declared war 3/3 times once the 10 turn peace treaty was over. Didn't simulate a 2nd simultaneous war vs. another AI by Joao so this result might be a bit flawed.
2)Even though Joao had explored our lands (checked Reveal Tile Mode in world builder for Joao), his stack was transported to 2S of where HatsTown is in the real game once the embargo was signed. He then marched his small stack of doom up to simulated BridgeTown and declared when his stack reached it.
3)Joao originally declared war by stepping onto our corn tile, so we face war in the real game on T122 if it follows the test game and we don't sign the trade embargo.
I wasn't able to figure out how to transport Joao's units onto our corn when the embargo was signed, so I couldn't test what happens when an AI is in our lands and wants to DoW while inside our borders.
I'm adding the test game below so others can experiment. Simulated BridgeTown was added at the start of the turn just like real BridgeTown.
Conclusions:
1)Begging 10 gold does guarantee peace. However, it did not appear to cancel the war planning and the different AI's all declared war 3/3 times once the 10 turn peace treaty was over. Didn't simulate a 2nd simultaneous war vs. another AI by Joao so this result might be a bit flawed.
2)Even though Joao had explored our lands (checked Reveal Tile Mode in world builder for Joao), his stack was transported to 2S of where HatsTown is in the real game once the embargo was signed. He then marched his small stack of doom up to simulated BridgeTown and declared when his stack reached it.
3)Joao originally declared war by stepping onto our corn tile, so we face war in the real game on T122 if it follows the test game and we don't sign the trade embargo.
I wasn't able to figure out how to transport Joao's units onto our corn when the embargo was signed, so I couldn't test what happens when an AI is in our lands and wants to DoW while inside our borders.
I'm adding the test game below so others can experiment. Simulated BridgeTown was added at the start of the turn just like real BridgeTown.
Signing the trade embargo if it gets Hatty's units to 2S of HatsTown now seems like a viable plan. We can have a trireme chopped out of BridgeTown and the city infected with Hindu and gifted to Ghenghi before Hatty's stack reaches it to take it from us. Then we can sail the trireme over and settle the corn when we wish and upgrade it to a caravel and load the other hindu missionary onto it. We would have to get rid of the city fast soon afterwards, as Hats would start marching towards it as soon as we settled it.
(Liberate)-ing BridgeTown to Hats and begging 10 gold for a peace treaty seems less good now. If we settle the corn on T127 with our 2nd settler to build a boat, we only have 4 turns before Hats can cancel the peace treaty. The SoD will start marching towards it T128 and will DoW us when it reaches the city if it is T131 or later.
These are my opinions based off the test game.
(Liberate)-ing BridgeTown to Hats and begging 10 gold for a peace treaty seems less good now. If we settle the corn on T127 with our 2nd settler to build a boat, we only have 4 turns before Hats can cancel the peace treaty. The SoD will start marching towards it T128 and will DoW us when it reaches the city if it is T131 or later.
These are my opinions based off the test game.
Hope you are having a good trip
Yes, free upgrade and +3 movement is sweet. Probably the best use for our GG.
Hatsegawa just couldn't let the Liz wardec go unpunished, so now we have to play more Civ 4 Judo.
I ran several tests. I found that when we liberated a city simulated to be Gateway City, the simulated Hatty no longer had gold to trade, so a 10 gold beg was not always possible. If I gave her enough gold, she would give me 10 turns of peace and give me the 10 gold, just to prove it could be done. Unfortunately, we don't have any gold to give.
Here was the data:
My conclusion for our best plan of action:
Alternatively, if we can't beg for gold:
The benefit of the alternative is that Hatty will not bring in allies to declare on us (Genghisgawa).
Also, our missionary will be trapped on the corn or bronze by Alexandria. When it pops its border it should teleport us to 2N2W of Byblos. By then we should have OB with Genghis and can infect him them.
We also get to keep our two workers and settler in Toku's land.
Here was the data:
Spoiler :
My conclusion for our best plan of action:
- Give Hatty Currency for closing borders with Toku. Do not ask for 50 gold.
- Liberate GatewayCity
- Beg for 10 gold for 10 turns of peace.
Alternatively, if we can't beg for gold:
- Give Hatty Currency for closing borders with Toku. Do not ask for 50 gold.
- Liberate GatewayCity
- If she won't grant us peace, close borders with Hatty
The benefit of the alternative is that Hatty will not bring in allies to declare on us (Genghisgawa).
Also, our missionary will be trapped on the corn or bronze by Alexandria. When it pops its border it should teleport us to 2N2W of Byblos. By then we should have OB with Genghis and can infect him them.
We also get to keep our two workers and settler in Toku's land.
Fantastic testing Kaitzilla. I think we are ready to roll on the turnset. Stealing compass + Machinery (unless we get a GE, then we bulb machinery) A GS would bulb optics, but even if we don't get a GS, we should have Optics by the time we need it (t130), right?
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