SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Draft PPP --Major questions in bold.

Misc: Sell map to Hatty, et al. if we get a reasonable price.
Kyoto can build the Forbidden Palace in 7 turns--maybe better to have it quickly in a slightly less useful place than significantly later in a slightly better place (Babylon)? I'd vote for Kyoto. Even though we're likely to lose Tokyo so an eastern FP is less valuable, I think an early FP beats a better FP, so it'll go in Kyoto. Probably. ;)

Religion: Build more Htemples, and maybe Hmona's. Spread Islam and Budd to Bolly so it can build monasteries for research boost. Infect the neghbors with Hinduism. Have miss's ready to go. Do not spread Buddhism.

What shall we do about Hatty? We could gift Lahore, but perhaps annoy Genghis. We could DoW Hatty to gain favor with Genghi and let Hatty capture Lahore. I prefer gifting and no war. DoW Hatty, let her take Lahore. Possibly defend Tokyo. Prepare to make an invincible Xbow via archer+GG to defend Kyoto.

GPs: How do you feel about burning our Great Ssci for a Golden Age? With luck, we won't even get to Education, and we could use the GA benefits right now--buildup to attack Hammy, speed our GP production, research faster to Banking, etc. Save the Great Sci for Education. In cities that might pop a GP we could run these specs:
  • Bolly--priests (to bulb DR) If SM is built, switch to sci's.
  • Vijay--merchants (for trade mission, although they make me nervous under the circumstances)
  • Holy Cow--sci's
  • Pata--mer's
  • Tokyo--sci's
I'd like to settle one Great General in Bombay--it has great production and is close to Hammy.

Techs: Currency, Optics, then toward Banking. Detour to Lit for HE if we somehow get Aesth. Detour to Divine Right if we bulb most of it with a Prophet and the Minaret is still available.

Espi: If we successfully get Liz to take Kago, put focus on Liz (unless that doesn't make sense). Otherwise, focus on Hammy. Steal techs when possible. Have spies in place.

Check that Agra has Hinduism. Yes, it does. Pillage and weaken Kago. Give peace and Agra to Toku (yes, I checked, this will work). Do this after OB with Liz. Open borders with Liz and hope she takes Kago. Close borders with Liz if she threatens Agra. Should I leave 2 units in Kago and hope Toku sends one to defend Agra after we gift it? I worry that an undefended Agra will be too tempting to Liz. After we get peace, it's unlikely Toku will allow open borders with us so he can't get any units to Agra anyway. Might as well soften up Kago. Of course, Liz could do something unexpected like capture Agra instead. Oy. Please advise. As soon as Liz takes Kago, infect with Hinduism. Have 2 Hmiss standing by.

War: Deal with Hammy's stack and then go on the offensive when we're ready. Make it soon.

Builds: Send caravels with Hmissionaries (and spies?) to find the remaining AIs once we get Optics. Varanasi seems the place to do this. Build Htemples in places without them unless it takes too long.

Have Hmiss and spies ready to go on caravels.
Bolly: forge, war units, B and I monasteries
Drona: Islam miss to Bolly, war units
Delhi: Xbow, library
Bombay: barracks, units for N war. Settle GG.
Vijay: Lhouse, run specs after growth (mer's)
HC: forge, gold or garrison archers. Build farms to grow and run specs (sci's)
Pata: forge, archers, specs (mer's)
Osaka: archers, Itemple, gold
Kyoto: Budd miss for Bolly, barracks, units. Or Forbidden Palace?
Tokyo: gold. Run specs (sci's)
Vara: Htemple, WB for whales, archers. Caravels ASAP. (Hmm, I need to build H miss's and spies for the caravels--wherever seems best.)
Agra: gold, specs
Calcutta: Lhouse, Htemple, Chouse
Lahore: gold, run mer. Give to Hatty? Abandon to Hatty when we DoW.

Always know diplo situation. Try to avoid DoW on anybody if that would offend our potential friends. Do not trade with our potential friends' worst enemies.
 
Quick Summary of the Diplo Scene

Toku (-16) - At war with US and Liz(WE) / Tech None
Hammy (-10) - At war with US / Tech Some /
Hatty (-4) - At war with Cyrus and Genghis / Tech Lots -
Shaka (-1) - Not at war / Tech Low /
Genghis (-1) - At war with Hatty / Tech Some /
Cyrus (0) - At war with Hatty / Techs Leader
Liz (+2) - At war with Toku / Tech Leader
Unknown 2

Toku - no point in infecting or gifting cities, he is not going to vote for us. Keep around at 1 city to have others angry at him then take him out at the right time.

Hammy - Lets take some cities, infect and sue for peace. Doesn't matter if he votes for us.

Hatty - Possibilities. Perhaps gift Lahore and Theo - see if we can get OB. May be a voter.

Shaka - Another potential voter.

Liz - already at +2. Need the Merc bonus for OB to infect.

Unknown - well, need to find. Based on Wonders does not look too advanced but who knows. Do we need to infect both - does anyone know?

Tech - Defintely beeline Banking Liz is already there. Once we switch to Merc have the Missionaries ready.

Shared war - I would wait until we are closer and perhaps get a AP vote for a common enemy.

Looks like a definite AP victory possibility.
 
PPP Input

Fish to hatty for 8gpt
Kyoto - Barracks and Mace for Hammy
Lahore gift to Hatty (is at war with Genghis but Friendly - go figure).
I am good with using GP for a Golden Age.
Kago - I would leave as is. Borders pop suck, but other than that no worries. We can get everyone to dogpile with AP hopefully. (or perhaps we'll save that for the guys in the middle)

I would use GG for a super-mace to deal with Hammy maces.

And in general need more units to take out Hammy. And would be good to take his current stack down before he reinforces.
 
I think tech path currency-optics-banking is good. Note, adopting Merc will not instantly give us +6, that will take some time to grow.

If you spread the AP religion and THEN work on the relations for votes, the AI start working on votes against you by spreading it themselves.:eek: Ideally, we have someone friendly before the diplo vic vote is even possible.

With Tokus, the way to get diplo is with war. We won't accomplish much without it. Lets not be chicken about it.;)

It will be important to keep track of the relationships, because you never know when you'll get a demand... so you should try to be familiar with who is friends with who so we don't DOW our friend-target's (FT) friends. GK/Liz/Cyrus/Shaka. Know who they like and hate at all times.

Should designate a FT, and maybe even a pecking order beyond that. GK is a good choice, since we already bought +4 with CoL. Liz and Cyrus are probably good FT's as well. But we get -2 close borders and/or maybe flip her only hindu city... so need to use OB to infect her more. Shaka possible FT, but he will be at odds with Cyrus. Can wait and see there which horse to bet on.

I honestly think DOW on Hatty, giving us +diplo with GK and Cyrus, is worth it. We'll get OB from those two and be able to send caravel missions. Who would give us -2 if we do that?

Lose Lahore... please! It was never meant to be kept. High maint, sucky location, hindu. Thats for Hatty... and she should grab it if we DOW. If he grabs Tokyo instead, no big deal.

Civics? (slavery or castes?)


@SH: not sure what you mean: "Liz - already at +2. Need the Merc bonus for OB to infect."
Liz will open borders now, she wants her troops to move. We'll already have OB to infect Kago when its taken by Liz. I suspect the same will hold for Cyrus/GK if we DOW Hatty, but don't know that for sure, because they can get to the enemy without OB.

Unless we really need the golden age, I'd keep the GSci for Edu. Two GSci getting Edu completed would give us something the AI want, and a way to gain +4 fair trade. We will want some stuf to give away on the turn before the votings, so keeping the tech rate up is worthwhile (as long as it doesn't slow down exploring/spreading/diplo friend-making). If we need a high tech to get to the last AI...
 
...and if they won't vote for us... lets just nuke them all. :lol:
 
Thanks for the comments. Seeing that both Cyrus and Genghis are at war with Hatty, and both are on relatively good terms with us, sways me to kcd's argument that we need to DoW Hatty and let her take Lahore. In that case I won't make much of an effort--probably none--to defend Tokyo. Hatty will likely pillage to the east of Kyoto, so food will become an issue. I think we therefore need to take back our sheep, etc. from Kago and the only way to do that is for it to change hands, and it sure would be nice to have Liz take it, so I'd go ahead with the Kago/Agra plan for Toku. If Hatty gets to the gates of Kyoto we'll need a good defender so I'll pick out a suitable archer--or build one--for Warlordization into an uber Xbow--that really ought to do the trick. I'll wait until it's needed, though.

In the north, I'm hesitant about using our GG on an offensive unit--if he dies, he's gone. But if we settle him we get his +2XPs forever. So I'm still leaning to settle in Bombay. If I did make a mega-mace, what promos? If combat/shock, he/ll always be the one attacked and might die. I'd be more comfortable giving him CR (and Drill?) to go against cities and avoid defending, but it's the job of our cats to make things easy for the units attacking cities, so I'm not sure how useful the mace would be then. In any case, I'll try to go on the attack against Hammy fairly quickly.

I'm assuming we'll be able to reach Genghi via caravel so will not attempt to send a heavily escorted Hmiss through Hatty to him unless a great opportunity presents itself.

OK, the argument for saving Sci's to bulb Education makes sense, so no Golden Age. On civics, I'm not keen on Slavery, but might switch into Theoc for some unit building.

I'll wait awhile for more comments and update the PPP soonish. I'll play either this afternoon or night.

Oh, what stop conditions should we set? I certainly won't go beyond 20 turns just because I can't play that fast. ;) Should I stop if we meet the last AI pair? If so, I'd say only stop when we find their territory---them sending a caravel or scout to us doesn't count since we won't know where they are.
 
Green from me as well.


And I can't shut up sp last-minute advices: You know what to shoot for and its a lot of touch and go with the active player having to react. At least 75% of your decision being good is enough to get a medal. Memorize the Freinds/Enemies list. Don't trade with worst enemies. :nope: DOW on folks will give negatives with anyone who is green(pleased or better) with that civ... but you know all this, so its just a friendly reminder.:mischief:


Diplo vc's are hard to predict who will hate who, and what various parties may demand of us. I foresee a time when the FT's start "asking" us to change to Bhudism. Sorry, that's easy, no way Jose. But it'll cost us diplo (=turns) each time they do. I don't know if spreading Bhudism increases the risk of that demand, but to be safe its the last religion I'd spread anywhere.

Wipe out the virtually undefended cats at VJ. Make more units to defend the oncoming wave... xbows will stop anything but the HA's.

If you make a monster unit with a GG, an Xbow with Drill-drill-drill-drill-etc is the way to go. But that means you attach him to an ARCHER and get free upgrade. Same principle if you make an uber-mace: attach to a warrior and free upgrade. I'm sure you know all this, but there's a lot going on right now so I don't want you to forget. :)
 
Okee dokee. PPP has been updated. I'll start playing shortly.
 
ChrisShaffer said:
Seems green to me, but we're getting out of my comfort zone - I don't really know how to do diplo/ap victories.
Click to expand...

Excellent! That's what SG's are for, learning from folks who have different skills. I spent a while doing religious victories, mostly because I needed to find some cheesy way to win at Deity level for the EQM/QM on Hall of Fame. Its been a while, but... its like riding a bike. I also feel good that SH has made a few award-winning religious performances in the BOTM's. So... if he and I agree on anything, its probably wrong. :p

:joke:

Good luck Xcal... and have fun... but not too much.
 
T168--Sell map to Hatty for 90. Only other option is Shaka, who will give all his 30--I'll wait. Set research to 100% on Currency. Adjust city builds and citizens. Start moving units from Kyoto to Kago. GG toward Bombay. Killed sword, spear, 3 cats by Vijay with loss of 1 cat and 1 axe. :(

T169--Hatty demands we convert. Nay. Cyrus asks us to DoW Hatty. Yay! We gain 1 diplo pt and... are the worst enemy of Cyrus. :crazyeye: Heal in Vijay. Move spies. Units ready to move into Tokuland next turn. Kago now has axe, spear, 2 archers. Yeah, Liz will need help. Liz is at -2 and I'm afraid she won't OB if we wait--do it.

T170--Bombay barracks-->cat. Pata forge-->archer. Osaka archer-->archer. Still no Hatty move toward us. Hammy backs off. Toku thoughtfully moves out an archer, which we kill. Currency done, breakeven now 33% with ~175 bpt. Switch to Optics, done in 2. Sell map to Genghi for 105--it paid to wait. :) Trade him our extra gold resource for 8gpt. Liz moves knight and WE toward Kago.

T171--Drona mace--cat. Pata galley-->archer. Kyoto mace-->Hmiss. No action by Hatty or Hammy. Liz kn/WE to Osaka. We reduce Kago to 0% defense. He's back to 4 defenders. Wait to attack until next turn with all units.

T172--Optics done-->Feud. Bolly forge-->spy cat (I think), Bombay cat-->Xbow, Pata archer-->archer, Kyoto Hmiss-->cat, Vara Htemple-->caravel. Liz is sending another knight and mace toward Toku. Kago now has 5 units. Our cats can redline them, but I only have enough units to kill 3--that'll leave 2 for Liz. I resent going to all this trouble for her, but I do it. Phew, no losses! and then give Toku peace and Agra. Hmiss standing by to infect Kago when Liz takes it. Revolt to Theoc from OrgRel.

T173--Liz takes Kago. Toku converts to Hinduism. Our Hmiss arrives in Kago but is out of movement. I send another toward it for backup. A bunch of units are finished, and more started. I ship an Hmiss and worker toward the island. FWIW, Hatty won't talk to me so I can't even offer Lahore in peace.

T174--Our borders expand around Kago. Liz has 2 wounded units there and 2 more (that new knight and mace) in Drona. She has Engineering and can reach undefended Japanese Agra in one turn so I close borders. Oh crap! I can't! :sad: Not for another 5 turns. Sorry, didn't think that through, but I don't think there's anything we could have done differently. Even if I'd opened borders when I started, we'd still be 3 4 turns short. We'll just have to hope she puts those units in Kago. I can't gift any unit to Toku because he won't give OB. C'est la vie.

Meanwhile, Hammy now has on the wheat next to Vijay: 4 maces, 1 HA, 6 Xbows, 1 LB, 5 cats. And 1 treb 1 turn away. He will only accept Vijay for peace. We have 5 cats, 1 mace, 2 swords, 1 axe, 5 spears, and 3 archers. Archers require 125 gold to upgrade to Xbows and we have 35. We have another cat, 2Xbows, spear, and archer who can get there in 2 turns. A mace is one turn behind those. And there's a wounded stack of 6 cats and 2 axes from the Kago campaign who can get to Vijay in 5 more turns. I think this might be a good point to pause for reflection. I'll upload the save shortly.

Spoiler Upload log :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1080 AD to 1140 AD:

Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hinduism has spread in Lahore.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Maceman 23 (Bollywood) (8.80) vs Hammuragawa's Swordsman (4.28)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Swordsman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Swordsman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Maceman 23 (Bollywood) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Swordsman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Maceman 23 (Bollywood) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Swordsman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Maceman 23 (Bollywood) has defeated Hammuragawa's Swordsman!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 24 (Bombay) (5.00) vs Hammuragawa's Spearman (5.20)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 61.7%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 24 (Bombay) is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 24 (Bombay) is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 24 (Bombay) is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Spearman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 24 (Bombay) is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 24 (Bombay) is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Spearman has defeated Gandhi's Catapult 24 (Bombay)!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 30 (Delhi) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 30 (Delhi) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 30 (Delhi) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 30 (Delhi) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 30 (Delhi) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 31 (Bollywood) (5.50) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 31 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 31 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 31 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 31 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 31 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 31 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult has defeated Gandhi's Axeman 31 (Bollywood)!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 1 (Bollywood) (6.60) vs Hammuragawa's Spearman (4.21)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 95.3%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Spearman is hit for 23 (58/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Spearman is hit for 23 (35/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Spearman is hit for 23 (12/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Spearman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 1 (Bollywood) has defeated Hammuragawa's Spearman!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 2 (Bombay) (6.60) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 77.7%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 2 (Bombay) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 2 (Bombay) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Spearman 2 (Vijayanagara) (4.00) vs Hammuragawa's Catapult (0.60)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Hammuragawa's Catapult is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Gandhi's Spearman 2 (Vijayanagara) has defeated Hammuragawa's Catapult!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: St. Patrick (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 169, 1090 AD: You have declared war on Hatsegawa!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in Kyoto. Work has now begun on a Maceman.
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Erwin Rommel (Great General) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Hammuragawa adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 170, 1100 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 3 (Holy Cow) (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (3.75)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 88.0%
Turn 170, 1100 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 3 (Holy Cow) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 3 (Holy Cow) is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 3 (Holy Cow) is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 3 (Holy Cow) is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 3 (Holy Cow) is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 3 (Holy Cow) is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman 3 (Holy Cow) has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Georgy Zhukov (Great General) has been born in Thebes (Hatsegawa)!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: The Apostolic Palace voting members have announced their decision: Apostolic Palace Election (Winner Proposes Apostolic Palace Resolutions) (Requires 82 of 207 Total Votes)

Turn 171, 1110 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Holy Cow. Work has now begun on a Hindu Monastery.
Turn 171, 1110 AD: You have constructed a Hindu Temple in Varanasi. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.

Turn 172, 1120 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Tokyo!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Vijayanagara!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Bollywood has become happy.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Bombay has grown to size 9.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Osaka has become unhappy.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Calcutta has grown to size 2.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Cyrusgawa has 60 gold available for trade.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Cyrusgawa has 6 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 14 (Drona) (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (5.25)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Combat Odds: 50.3%
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Catapult 14 (Drona) has caused collateral damage! (4 Units)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 14 (Drona) is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 14 (Drona) is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Catapult 14 (Drona) has withdrawn from combat with a Archer!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 11 (Bollywood) (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (3.68)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Combat Odds: 86.2%
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Catapult 11 (Bollywood) has caused collateral damage! (3 Units)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 22 (69/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 22 (47/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 22 (25/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Catapult 11 (Bollywood) has withdrawn from combat with a Archer!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 5 (Vijayanagara) (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Axeman (5.40)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Combat Odds: 59.4%
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Catapult 5 (Vijayanagara) has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 18 (62/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 5 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 18 (44/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 18 (26/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 5 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 5 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 5 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Catapult 5 (Vijayanagara) has withdrawn from combat with a Axeman!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 8 (Bollywood) (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Spearman (3.61)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Combat Odds: 97.6%
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Catapult 8 (Bollywood) has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 21 (46/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 21 (25/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Catapult 8 (Bollywood) has withdrawn from combat with a Spearman!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 1 (Bollywood) (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (2.34)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 1 (Bollywood) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Catapult 1 (Bollywood) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Catapult 1 (Bollywood) has withdrawn from combat with a Archer!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 12 (Bombay) (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (1.31)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 12 (Bombay) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 24 (1/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 12 (Bombay) has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Axeman 12 (Bombay) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 19 (Bollywood) (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Archer (1.01)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 19 (Bollywood) has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Axeman 19 (Bollywood) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 28 (Holy Cow) (5.50) vs Tokugawa's Axeman (1.62)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 23 (2/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 28 (Holy Cow) has defeated Tokugawa's Axeman!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Your Axeman 28 (Holy Cow) has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: You have made peace with Tokugawa!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Osaka.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Osaka will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokyo will shrink to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Varanasi will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Gandhi adopts Theocracy!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Tokugawa converts to Hinduism!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Kagoshima (Tokugawa) has been captured by the English Empire!!!

Turn 173, 1130 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Tokyo!
Turn 173, 1130 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Vijayanagara!
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Bollywood has become unhealthy.
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Osaka has grown to size 10.
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Tokyo has shrunk to size 4.
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Varanasi has grown to size 6.
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Hammuragawa has 140 gold available for trade.
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Hammuragawa has 5 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Elizagawa is the worst enemy of Tokugawa.
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Vijayanagara will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Tokyo will shrink to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 173, 1130 AD: The borders of Lahore have expanded!
Turn 173, 1130 AD: A Farm has been destroyed by a marauding Babylonian Horse Archer!

Turn 174, 1140 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Lahore!
Turn 174, 1140 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Vijayanagara!
Turn 174, 1140 AD: Drona has become unhealthy.
Turn 174, 1140 AD: Delhi will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 174, 1140 AD: Vijayanagara has grown to size 7.
Turn 174, 1140 AD: Pataliputra has become unhealthy.
Turn 174, 1140 AD: Osaka has become happy.
Turn 174, 1140 AD: Tokyo has shrunk to size 3.
Turn 174, 1140 AD: Cyrusgawa has 7 gold per turn available for trade.

Sorry, no BUFFY log. I wanted to play on the Mac with its nicer screen and forgot I hadn't set it up.

And BTW, the reason I didn't shift more units up to Vijay is because we need warm bodies in various cities (Drona, Kyoto, Osaka, Delhi) to deal with the WW. Things look much better now because of some recently completed city forges and peace with Toku, along with the archers I was spamming from minor cities. And I had just enough units to deal with Kago, so none could be spared up around Vijay. And the threat to Vijay just materialized in the last turn (or two, if I'd looked and hadn't been as fixated on Kago--but even then there was nothing I could do). Do I sound a bit defensive? ;) Sorry, I know this is not a great situation but I don't think I could have done much to be in better shape.
 
I haven't looked at the save again but I suggest we sit tight in Vijay and let Hammy make his move. I would assume he'll bombard first, so that buys us one or two turns for reinforcements to arrive. If he doesn't wait he'll be dealing with our cultural defenses. And he doesn't have enough non-siege units to take us out in one go, so I think we'll survive, although it won't be very pretty. How desperate a situation do we consider this? We could revolt to Slavery and whip in Vijay (and elsewhere, although it'll take awhile for units to get to the front). We could save up gold, maybe sell our map some more (my threshold has been >50), and upgrade one or two archers to Xbows. And we could send our last GG from Kyoto to Vijay--it'll take a long time to arrive, though, and I'd like to have it in the east in case Hatty arrives in force, although I think she quite literally has her hands full with Genghis and Cyrus--that could quickly change, though. Personally I'd save up some gold and upgrade archer(s) if necessary but not do anything more drastic.

I could use a refresher on the diplo finagling--kcd, your reminder was very helpful--I think I've done things about as well as possible so far, but only because I haven't had much choice on what to do. ;) Anyone, please chime in! Should we gift any techs? What about gifting the stone to somebody?

We're a couple turns away from our first caravel in Varanasi. Since they only carry 1 unit (Hmiss's to start, and then spies--OK?) I'm going to keep spamming them from Vara and maybe chop out one in Calcutta (both on the island).

I can play some more tonight, but would like approval of some sort.
 
I'll take a look at the save. Like Chris, I don't have enough experience with religious victories to feel I can make much of a meaningful contribution. I will echo kcd's earlier thought: use the GG to promote an archer (upgraded to xbow) up the Drill line. They are fantastic for defense. Revolt to Slavery if you need more units.

So I would say continue. I will chime in if I notice anything after looking at the save.

Edit: You can sell our map to Cyrus for 60 gold, and Genghis for 50 gold. Maybe use the cash to fund research and finish Feudalism faster or save up for xbow/longbow upgrades? Hammy is coming with Trebs and we have no access to horses or elephants to counter. I would suicide some cats to soften up his stack.
 
Looks like we can get Feud in 2. But no slavery for 3 turns as we must have switched civics a couple of turns ago. And he has a treb on the way. Not sure VJ can hold out until we can whip LBs. Looking doubtful that an attack on that stack will succeed.
 
I think Agra is safe. Expect Liz will heal before moving units out and and with the cultural pressure probably won't move them at all. Kago could flip back to Toku once Agra's borders reach it. Liz may need to keep a big stack there to keep it. A big stack that could resent our close borders. But it will take a while to build a stack there.

Do we want a spy on the first caravel? Can we afford one of our 3 missionaries to be stuck on a boat forever?

Don't know what to do about Vijay. Good luck.
 
Deckhand said:
I think Agra is safe. Expect Liz will heal before moving units out and and with the cultural pressure probably won't move them at all. Kago could flip back to Toku once Agra's borders reach it. Liz may need to keep a big stack there to keep it. A big stack that could resent our close borders. But it will take a while to build a stack there.

Do we want a spy on the first caravel? Can we afford one of our 3 missionaries to be stuck on a boat forever?

Don't know what to do about Vijay. Good luck.
Click to expand...

I agree... first passenger should be a spy for scouting in closed borders. An HMiss won't be able to enter until we get merc anyhow, so no point using up one of our 3HMiss on a pleasure-cruise.

I haven't opened the save, will do so in a bit. Losing VJ not a catastrophe, especially if the units survive to fight another day.
 
As for VJ, I think NOW would be a good time to do like before and offer tech for peace with Hammy. If that doesn't work, I'm almost of a mind to evacuate VJ. At least move the medic out for sure. But I firmly believe he will accept Paper or Theology for peace, even though he as usual is asking for VJ, and not getting VJ will ensure he comes back in 10t. But in 10t we'll be ready to kick his sorry butt.

Need to infect Kago. Do that before anything else... if it fails to spread Hindu, we have to take a different approach. But the odds of success infecting are very good at Kago, so I'll assume it will work. Then, in 5t there will be an AP vote, and we should get the option to force peace with Toku. We should also get the option to force open borders with all members, but that doesn't really do us any good since Hammy and Shaka are non-members.

Repetition: Here's the resoultions and what's needed for them to be available and what they do:
Spoiler :
1. Declare war on X
Prerequisite: One Full Member (but not all Full Members) must be at war with X, and X must be a Non-Member.
If passed, all Members are instantly at war with X.

2. Trade Embargo against X
Prerequisite: One Full Member must be trading with X, and X must be a Non-Member.
If passed, all Members now have Closed Borders with X and all trade agreements with X not made within the last 10 turns are cancelled.

3. Force Peace on X
Prerequisite: Civ X must be a Full Member and at war with a Member.
If passed, a 10 turn Cease Fire is implemented among all Members.

4. Open Borders
Prerequisite: The Resident or a Full Member currently does not have an Open Border treaty with one or more Full Members.
If passed, all Members now have Open Borders with each other.

5. Defensive Pact
Prerequisite: All Members are not currently at war and are eligible to form Defensive Pacts with each other.
If passed, all Members now have Defensive Pact treaties with each other.

6. Assign city from X to Y:
Prerequisite: Civ X must be a Voting Member, but not Full Member, and Civ Y must be a Full Member. The two civs must not be at war. Civ Y must have a higher culture on the city plot (not the city itself) than Civ X does.
If passed the city is transferred intact with all buildings but no units.


In 5-turns, if we remain at war with Babylonia, then option 1 (all members DOW Babylon) can be done. Sounds, nice, eh? Liz, Shaka, (Hatty?), and Toku all join war with us against Babys. I like the Shaka part. But this requires we do not make peace and ARE ABLE TO HOLD VJ that long.

Res#1 will be available to force everyone at war with Liz if we fail to spread to Kago, but I don't think we want that right now. Not sure if our 10t forced peace with Toku interferes... but I don't think it does.

Res#2 is OK if Toku is trading with a non-member that we are not. Hatty for example. But I doubt he is. We'd force Toku to be even more despised. Evil, yes, but that's that. We don't want to do this resolution on anyone WE are trading with, though. Gives negative diplo in that case.

Res#3 allows us to pull Toku's cajones out of the fire if we so desire. But if he's to be the whipping boy, we don't really want to do that, do we? Unless its the only way to keep him alive without gaining negative diplo on us.

Res#3 also allows us to force peace on Babylonia in the event we lose VJ. Unless they defy.:p

Res#5 is a good deal for gaining +diplo with members. But I don't think this one will be available for a while, and not very often in this war-torn world, either.

Res#4 is a way to get missionaries by (slow) land-route once we have chain infection (Hatty and Hammy need to get infected first for this to be any use at all). Getting OB with the non-members is a bit of a problem, but Merc should get us something, and common war always works. For example, we should have OB with GK right now! Please make that trade at once. We should also accept OB with Cyrus. Please make that trade at once.

Res#6 would allow us to give Kago back to Toku, but that would be about the WORST thing we could do. On a brighter note, if we FAIL to hold VJ, Res#6 allows us to get VJ back (unless defied-which would make it a flip-back wet dream).

So there's 3 reasonably good scenarios regarding VJ.
Option 1: we give tech for peace, then come back with a vengeance in 10t.
Option 2: we hold VJ 5t until the AP vote, and get all members (esp Shaka) at war with Babylon.
Option 3: we abandon VJ, then try to take it back with the AP.

Of course, even though option 2 seems most risky, it defaults to option 3 if we lose VJ. Difference being a bunch of dead units.

I think Option 1 is good for those of us who hate losing cities. I'm guessing, though, that 2 and 3 offer faster ways to get a religious VC. Once we get them members, it should be fairly straightforward to keep the peace when we need to.

Not sure the wisdom of building a LH in VJ when theres so many armies at our walls... but the military side of things is best left to you experts, perhaps.

So there's your options. I am green for a mini-turnset where you make OB with Cyrus/GK and infect(or fail to infect) Liz. Then we know better what options we can have. We need some team agreement to go farther than that... choices to be made.
 
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