SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Ok, we have a plan, but will he be speaking by t164 and accept GhostTown for Peace? It does seem likely, but not certain. If not, we must wait for t174 and a t176 RL DV.

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Hence my suggestion for gifting Hammsville to Shaka before the DOW, so we have another city we've already captured for war success. (We'll still be able to gift Hammsville to Hammu for flip missions T164.) Liz was willing to talk immediately after we'd captured two cities when we did the original holy war, so we should be able to manage Shaka.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Isn't Shakagawa the target of our holy war? He can't have a Hindu city for the holy war option to come up on t155.

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That's why we capture GhostTown T154 after the DOW. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11486881&postcount=3398

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Ok, we have a plan, but will he be speaking by t164 and accept GhostTown for Peace? It does seem likely, but not certain. If not, we must wait for t174 and a t176 RL DV.

Isn't Shakagawa the target of our holy war? He can't have a Hindu city for the holy war option to come up on t155.

Sun Tzu Wu

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Ya, Shaka would be the target.

He would probably be willing to talk to us by T164. Hard to say for sure with stubborn Gawas. Maybe gift him Hamsville T154 with an axe standing on the Wheat, then declare on him and take both Hamsville and GhostTown. The loss of 2 cities to start the war should make the loss of Bulawayo T158 99% certain to get him willing to talk peace. Oops, already mentioned by Mabraham.

bcool said:

Another backup plan

If we build a galley in Shaka Bacon Bit
Give Shaka Bacon Bit away to Cyrusgawa after we get OB with Genghisgawa (maybe with mercantilism??? city liberation???)
Cancel OB with Cyrusgawa
Galley teleports into critical waterway with possible galley access to Northern AI team

Spoiler :

westport has a monument so I would expect its border to pop by the time we got a galley built in Shaka Bacon Bit

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Great idea... but unfortunately, I think it would teleport 4S.

shulec said:

Great idea... but unfortunately, I think it would teleport 4S.

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We cannot be teleported to a tile we have never seen.

bc did well to settle where he did - I would have gone with a southern site that could see over these mountains and couldn't build a galley!

We shouldn't be too concerned with whipping down below 75% vote size. Several city gifts to Hammu will suffice, while keeping the total size of our voting block constant assuming we flip him to Hinduism. Yes DeerGold and PigsGems, I'm looking at you. We might have to gift Hammu our gold and income, but that's fine.

The Shaka War plan compiled...

Get as many units as we can to Babylon by T150 and finish Engineering by T146 (so it finishes between T145-T146)

Finishing engineering in 3 turns means we likely have to build wealth in a few cities (however you can try low odds begs from Hammuragawa and Toku which, if successful, would allow you to build a few more units)

Start Galley in Shaka Bacon Bit (send worker here to start mine/chop of forest)

Send another spy to GhostTown as a backup to current spy to flip Shaka to Hinduism.

If Shaka doesn't DoW us then we are setting up to...

Move mainstack up through Shaka's lands after a close/open teleport trick to jump the gap between Hammuragawa and Shakagawa on T152
Gift Shaka Hammsville T153 (we must make sure its borders will collapse and we have units in position to capture it on T154)
Position a unit adjacent to GhostTown by T153 (will need to walk from our culture since the close/open borders with Hammuragawa on T152 will push it out.
flip Shaka to Hinduism on T154.
DoW Shaka on T154
Take GhostTown and Hammsville back from Shaka on T154
march stack across from Cyrusgawa's lands to Shaka Bulawaya.

I like starting the war as early as possible (or at least moving our units so that it is possible to DoW as early as possible)
If things go poorly (i.e. Shaka DoW us early) we will be in a position to march through shaka's lands and still reach Bulawaya.
The earlier we start the war with Shaka the more likely we will be able to end it and regift him back GhostTown and gift Bulawaya to the Northern AI. So I do not favor delaying the stack and building up more units. capturing GhostTown and Hammsville will likely make him ready to talk. Plus the Holy War might make him more willing to talk as well.

We can build several units to add to the stack and those units can still join the stack and make it to Babylon by T150. We need to do some fancy galley chaining to get units from CowTown but it should be possible.

Be prepared to get at least 2 missionaries with the stack organizing in Babylon by T150.

Once Moses plan is successful get a 3rd missionary past Shaka to Shaka Bacon Bit, might have be ready to build a missionary in 1 turn in DeerGold (store up whip OF) and get that missionary up through Hammuragawa lands to link up with the SoD in Babylon by T151. Then one of the 2 missionaries already with the SoD can rush though Shaka's lands before the DoW to Shaka Bacon Bit.

If Moses plan is not successful then we need to rethink our plans.

The Holy War gets us OB with the Team AI, Genghis (the ability to reopen borders with Cyrusgawa if we go with the teleport plan in Cyrusgawa) and allows us to make peace with Liz (if we want to). Declaring early with teleporting over the gap will allow us to likely avoid Shaka's SoD.

mabraham said:

We cannot be teleported to a tile we have never seen.

bc did well to settle where he did - I would have gone with a southern site that could see over these mountains and couldn't build a galley!

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Ya, I agree. When our borders in bacon bit pop T152 from the Stonehenge monument, it still won't be enough to see over those mountains.

I will try to calculate tonight if the math confirms a galley will teleport where we want if we settle the Hatsegawa bait city to make our nearest city more eastward.

bcool said:

They are not at war with anyone.

Oddly they have only met Hatsegawa, Shakagawa and Hammuragawa.

It doesn't look like Magellan has a clear path to them from where he is (he is the caravel carrying the missionary)

They are not currently willing to take any of our cities.

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I think our teleporting galley still won't be enough to reach the north_AI. If the north_AI hasn't used a galley to meet Ghenghigawa or Cyrusgawa(or vice versa), then they are probably seperated by ocean.

Maybe if we research to Astronomy after Engineering by T160, then we could upgrade our galley, gift the city, settle the Hatse bait city for an anchor(if it is even necessary), close borders with Cyrus to teleport, then have T161-T164 to use our 5 movement point galleon for a 20 tile dash to infect.

It seems that the turn set can be broken down into three parts:

t143-t146: Build a few units, complete Engineering, execute the Moses teleport:

Moses will move to 1S+2E of Thebes, joining the 2 Axemen already there with .5 movement left on t146. We immediately cancel Open Borders with Hatshegawa and that should teleport the 2 Axemen and Moses to the target plot (7-E of Thebes). Moses immediately settles a gift city for Huanyagawa; 2 Axeman kill the Barbarian Archer (assuming Huanyagawa hasn't already done so even though AI Team has The Great Wall, so this may not even be required). Meanwhile, our 7 move Caravel moves into the gift city and loaded Missionary immediately converts it to Hinduism. Finally, still t146, we give the city to Huanyagawa and our 2 Axemen probably teleport to our island to the east.

t146-t150: Assemble our Stack of Doom in Babylon by t150, ready to march on t151:

Also, need to position Axemen to retake GhostTown and Hammsville, after giving them to Shakagawa t153.

t151-t153: Position our Stack of Doom and teleport across Hammuragawa/Shakagawa strait and position on top of Shakagawa's Copper Mine:

... to be ready for t154 DoW versus Shakagawa to Cyrusgawa from 2-NE of Copper Mine with .3 movement left so it can move one plot closer to Bulawayo on the turn of the DoW.

This suggests that the turn set has two major predetermined stopping points:

t146: After an potential failure of the Moses teleport plan; play could continue on success

t150 or t151: Before commiting to the teleport via closing and opening borders with Hammuragawa.

I propose pausing the game at these points no more than 12 hours each; less if most agree and I have free time to continue play.

Do we need to keep Hammuragawa borders closed until after DoW with Shakgawa?

The above is our main plans and doesn't include backup plans:

1) The remainder of our stack in Hastegawa will wait near Akhetaten and will be teleported to around 2-W of Akhetaten when the Moses teleport or more likely we move them to 2-W with some movement left when the Moses teleport is activated.

2) Shaka Bacon bit builds a Galley and nearest Worker builds a Grassland Mine and chops a forest. Need to get a Hindu Missionary on Galley before teleporting. Can build a fort 1-SE where Galley will be just prior to teleporting.

Note that not all details of our plans already expresssed in the thread appear above. They should be all fleshed out in the PPP I will be writing soon. Thanks bcool for your recent summary post; it will be very helpful for working out the PPP.

Please let me know, if upon reading the above you believe I must be missing some essential part of our planning or just want to add some detail not already mentioned or ... anything else.

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla said:

I will try to calculate tonight if the math confirms a galley will teleport where we want if we settle the Hatsegawa bait city to make our nearest city more eastward.

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Where should that be located and about when should it be settled?

Digression: Tokugawa has a sizable stack in Trojan Horse. Is that any concern, after our Peace Treaty with him ends in 2t? The holy wars should be keeping him busy though, right?

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Where should that be located and about when should it be settled?

Digression: Tokugawa has a sizable stack in Trojan Horse. Is that any concern, after our Peace Treaty with him ends in 2t? The holy wars should be keeping him busy though, right?

Sun Tzu Wu

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Settler 16 sits between Genghis and Hatsegawa in one of the only? places to settle a city. I would assume if this city is necessary you would only settle it the turn of the teleport and would settle it where Settler 16 is now.

Tokugawa has a bunch of units in Trojan Horse to prevent revolt I have to assume. The stack is of no concern to us since he is locked into 2 wars and soon to be 3 if the holy war vs Shaka works. He was declared upon by Genghisgawa, so we know he isn't preparing his own war.

Making sure we complete Engineering in 3t while building units to join our SoD in Babylon by t150-t151. We have about 1.8t of 100% Research left, thus we can do one turn of 00% Research, one turn of 100% Research, and one turn of 80% Research. When all cities are building Wealth we have +160 Wpt at Res 00 and +9 Wpt at Res 100. The one turn of 00% Res will add 160W to the 20W we have, providing a total of 180W of deficit that we can accommodate to complete Engineering. This will allow us to build the following units in 2t (whipping in all except Delhi); on the 3rd turn, all cities will be building wealth:

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 143/500 (660 AD) [11-May-2012 14:02:36]
Deergold City begins: Crossbowman (3 turns)
CowTown begins: Crossbowman (4 turns)
PigsGems begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Hamsville begins: Catapult (10 turns)
Delhi begins: Maceman (2 turns)

Shortages caused by whipped citizens not longer producing Commerce can be covered by begging and resorting to Caste System Merchants on t145, if necessary.

This will add to our current SoD of:
4 Macemen
1 Swordsman
3 Axemen
3 Spearmen
5 Catapults

Our final expected complement will be:

5 Macemen
2 Crossbowmen
1 Swordsman
3 Axemen
3 Spearmen
7 Catapults

The Crossbowman being built in CowTown will be Galley chained between PigsGem and Nippur in order to get to Babylon in time (t150-t151).

This assumes we have enough Spies (5) and we can built needed Hindu Missionaries (we already have 3 now) starting after Engineering completion. Otherwise, 1-2 Catapult builds can be replaced by Spy or Hindu Missionaries builds (we would need to disband a Hindu Missionary now though).

Sun Tzu Wu

t143 - t153 PPP:

Cities (F1):

Delhi:

t143-t144: builds Macemen organically in 2t
t145-t153: builds Wealth

Deergold City:

t143-t144: builds/whips Crossbowman
t145-t153: builds Wealth

SheepTown:

t143-t153: builds Wealth

CowTown:

t143-t144: builds/whips Crossbowman
t145-t153: builds Wealth

PigsGem:

t143-t144: builds/whips Catapult
t145-t153: builds Wealth

Crabsville:

t143-t153: builds Wealth

Island:

t143-t153: builds Wealth

Hamsville:

t143-t144: builds/whips Catapult
t145-t153: builds Wealth

FishTown:

t143-t153: builds Wealth

Shaka Bacon Bit:

t143-t153: builds Galley

LizTown:

t143-t153: builds Wealth

Financial (F2) - Currently:

Unit Cost: 28
Unit Supply: 9
City Maintenance: 63
Civic Upkeep: 45
Inflation: 23
Total Expenses: 168

We will be adding 5 units in 2t, so Unit Cost will increase by 5 to 33. Our SoD will leave our culture by about t148-149 and its 21 units will cost us 10-11 more Unit Supply, increasing from 9 to 19-20. We plan to regrow citizens whipped in 2t, so City Maintenance and Civic Upkeep should stay about the same, ignoring Civics changes.

Civics (F3):

We might switch to Caste System in t145 to hire Merchants for increased wealth for those citizens with no to low commerce plots to work.

We can also adopt Vassalage and Theocracy for +4 XP in t145, but unit builds must be delayed a turn by inserting a Wealth build turn 143 or 144. The Crossbowman in CowTown can't be delayed, so it won't get the +4 XP either way.

Foreign (F4):

All Civs except Mansagawa, Huayanagawa, Cyrusgawa, Shakagawa and Genghigawa are involved in a Holy War against Elizagawa.

Genghigawa is at war with Tokugawa.

We will perform small low probababity begs from Hammuragawa (when was last beg), Mansagawa (10-20W) and Huayanagawa (20W) turn 143 or 144, so the Peace Treaty ends before our proposed t145 Holy War vote.

Resource Trades? We have extra Gold that some Gawas would pay small amounts of Wpt or Cow or Sheep.

None of the x-gawas have adopted Mercantilism

None of the x-gawas have Engineering yet. Mansagawa and Huayanagawa do not yet have Theology. Hammuragawa will trade Aesthetics and Horseback Riding.

Military (F5):

All military units (5 Macemen, 2 Crossbowmen, 3 Spearmen -> Pikemen, 1 Swordsman, 3 Axemen and 7 Catapults) in our main cultural area (including those built in 2t) will immediately move to Babylon with ETA of t150 or t151.

2 Axemen at 1S+2W of Thebes will await the arrival of Moses for the Moses Teleport Maneuver in t146.

All military units near Akhataten will wait in Satsuma until the Moses Teleport Maneuver. If it fails, these units will capture Akhetaten as a Hindu city gift to Huayanagawa.

Caravels:

George Patton moves Hindu Missionary to city we will gift to Huayanagawa, either teleport enbled new city or captured Akhetaten.

Traveler?

Trireme Argos waits or disbands?

2 Galleys form Galley chain between PigsGems and Nippur for laggard Crossbowman built t145 in CowTown.

Scout: disband.

Settlers:

Settler 16 will remain in position (possibly the only access to Elizagawa for military victories) until just before trying the Galley teleport.

Moses moves to 1-S+2-E of Thebes, teleports to 7-E of Thebes and settles there t146.

Settler 17 (SE of Island)?

Workers:

Fritz: moves to Shaka Bacon Bit to build Grassland Mine and chop Forest and possibly build Fort 1-SE of Shaka Bacon Bit as Galley canal teleoprt launch pad.

Karl: Shadows Shakagawa's SoD until the DoW.

Eiffel: Moves to and chops forest 1-S of Settler 16. Probably useless, but we might be able to chop a useful unit here before giving the city away.

Hoover: builds Road 1-N of FishTown, builds Grassland Hill Mine 1-NW of FishTown.

Faraday: builds Banana Planatation, 2 Grassland Hill Mines near Crabsville.

Island Worker: builds four Riverside Grassland Cottages.

Hindu Missionaries:

One aboard George Patton, see Caravel George Patton above.

9 catches up with our SoD.

10 moves to Shaka Bacon Bit.

Spies:

1 explores GenghisGawa's unrevealed Culture.

5 provides intel on Hastegawa's activities until Holy War in t156 provides Open Borders.

4 waits in Hamsville until needed to convert Shakagawa to Hinduism just before the DoW (priority 1).

7 waits in GhostTown until needed to convert Shakagawa to Hinduism just before the DoW (priority 2 = back up).

8 moves to Bulawayo as primary Spy for Support City Revolt mission t164 or earlier. We may want to divert spy 7 to a back up roll for this mission (depends on how important Shakagawa's converion to Hinduism is.

Technolgy (F6):

Complete Engineering in 3t (t146) via turns of 00% Research, 100% Research and 80% Research.

Next: Paper -> Education? or Astronomy?

Religion (F7):

Shaka Bacon bit and Island are only cities lacking Hinduism.

Victory Conditions (F8):

RL DV ASAP:

Gandhi: 96
Hatsegawa: 9
Cyrusgawa: 8
Tokugawa: 7
Hammuragawa: 3 (Will vote for us)
Shakagawa: 1
Genghisgawa: 1
Mansagawa: none
Huayanagawa: none
Elizagawa: none

Ratio is already 96/125 = we exceed 75% by a few percent. After spreading Hinduism to Mansagawa, Huayanagawa, and Elizagawa we should be well under 75%, not including the planned whips in 2t.

Resolutions:

t145: Return a city to thier rightful owner? Which one would that be?

t155: Declare war on the infidels (Shakagawa).

t165: RL DV.

Corporation (Shift-F7): Coporation not completed yet by any Civ.

Espionage (CRTL-E):

-> Elizagawa enough to see her Research focus; after that mainly -> Shakagawa; back to Elizgawa when we have enough on Shakaga

t146-: Commerce -> Espionage which is focused mainly on Shakagawa until we can afford a Hinduism conversion mission and a Support City Revolt mission in Bulawayo.

Please let me know of any corrections or additions. Since this is the first draft of the PPP, I expect there to be significant issues with it, so please speak your mind about it.

Sun Tzu Wu

Astronomy after Eng I think.

For research, why not push for Engineering in 2turns? Just in case we stumble upon some more cash next turn. Maybe 1 turn sooner isn't worth it, since it may delay our builds. I'm sure you've worked it out, just ignore me.

If possible, I'd like to complete my turn set Sat. night (before Mother's Day). I have very limited play time on Sunday.

Sun Tzu Wu

WastinTime said:

Astronomy after Eng I think.

For research, why not push for Engineering in 2turns? Just in case we stumble upon some more cash next turn. Maybe 1 turn sooner isn't worth it, since it may delay our builds. I'm sure you've worked it out, just ignore me.

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To finish Engineering in 2t, we could not affort to build more than 1-2 Crossbowmen and 2 units would be a stretch without successful begs.

We could complete Astronomy in 16t, but we would only be able to build units in at most one city with a moderate ~10 Hpt production, though we could make up the shortfall via Caste system and hiring Merchants with citizens that can't work better than low Commerce plots. Thus, permitting unit builds in a city with a higher Hammer rate say up to 20-30 Hpt, but all the other cities, except Shaka Bacon Bit will be building Wealth.

The main problem though is we need to run the Espionage slider nearly all the time after completing Engineering. There's not enough Commerce left to research Astronomy or anything similarly large. All our remaining Technologies will be stolen, in my opinion.

Sun Tzu Wu

Can I get approval to follow the PPP through to successful Moses Teleport Maneuver and settling Moses, spreading Hinduism and gifting to Huayanagawa? That would involve the first three turns of the PPP plus the above mentioned Moses related operations.

Sun Tzu Wu

More feedback later, but at one stage our missionary somewhere in the Hatse-Toku region (Missionary 9?) was intended to join the Moses teleport T146 and be the primary spreader of Hinduism to Inca. I had thought the Patton-missionary was the backup if we've miscalculated or Vilcabamba pops its borders. However that plan was when we thought we might be using the Patton-missionary to spread to north. That's no longer an issue...

So yeah, if the Moses plan fails, we should have time to organize a late missionary to get to Patton to get to spread to Inca with post-Merc OB. Thus the missionaries on land should head for Babylon.

The Moses axes should watch for a Vilcabamba border pop, which should be visible across the ocean. If it sees the pop, then we want to unload the Patton-missionary somewhere optimal and have it journey overland to Babylon (or disband and rebuild if that is better). If we don't see the pop, we do the Hatse-close-borders trick, kill the barb archer, settle the city, check Inca will take the city, and only then move Patton in to unload the missionary.

Once we have the Inca-gift city settled, there is no rush to gift it to Inca. If we retain it until T156, then they will not be in on the Shaka Holy War. (We need to verify what effect having only one of them with Hinduism will have upon the holy war vote.) This will mean we can capture Bulawayo, clean out nearby Shaka units, spread Hinduism, gift Bulawayo to Mali, and Bulawayo will be free of Shaka retaliation, because there is no war between Shaka and the pair. Ideally we'd already have Merc-OB with the pair so our stack can hide in Bulawayo if it wants to avoid losses.

I can't find a reason (other than our economy) to rush to make the Inca gift before the very end of the game. There seems to be no advantage to having the pair in the Shaka Holy War (or getting earlier OB from that), if we are assured that the two city gifts will work. Edit: There is a good reason - the pair are WHEOOHRN and we are a likely target and a delayed city gift gives them a valid land target. So we likely want to offload this city ASAP.

I'm beginning PPP draft #2, assuming our SoD doesn't need to arrive in Babylon until the end of t151. When we DoW Shakagawa on turn 154, with our SoD 1-SW of Copper we should teleport 3-NE onto Cyrusgawa's Silk. To make this work we may need to keep Hummuragawa's borders closed for a full turn, opening them after our DoW on t154 If this is too risky, our SoD needs to arrive at the end of t150 in Babylon.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

I'm beginning PPP draft #2, assuming our SoD doesn't need to arrive in Babylon until the end of t151.

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bcool's original screenshot plan clearly indicated the need to be in Babylon end T150, and as far as I recall nothing's been discussed to relax that requirement. The plan has to exclude the possibility of teleporting to close to GhostTown. Why do you think end T151 is fast enough?