SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Xcalibrator said:

Don't have time to think at the moment but if we get Astro we can build galleons, which will save time sailing up north. Would we have the pop to whip one quickly? If not, build a galley (before getting AStro) and then get Astro and upgrade it. Keep in mind the missionaries don't always work the first time.

I'm happy for kcd to play.

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Oh yeah... we obsolete a bunch of shipping with Astro. A Galleon costs 80hammers so we can 3-pop whip it after investing a single hammer in it. The turn we lose investing the hammer is gained during travel, and an additional turn is saved for every 3 turns of movement. With luck that could get us there by t17. If we instead whip a galley and then upgrade, we still lose the turn. A caravel costs 60 hammers so a 3-pop (90-hammer) whip probably isn't possible until we invest a hammer.

So it doesn't look like we'll save any time by keeping caravels/galleys(40)/triremes(50) available, and maybe actually lose a turn not going for Galleon direct.

And yes, with a galleon there is the ability to bring 2 missionaries on the sea route while one takes the land route if there is one.

Of course, this means that taking Memphis BEFORE Satsuma comes out of revolt is a MUST, or otherwise that pop decreases to 5 and we have a long wait. The 9 tile region after revolt produces 9 food, so that should keep the pop, since the trade connection by freeing up Memphis' culture borders lets Satsuma get benefit from our health resources.

So I think the plan works... just substitute Galleon where it says Caravel.

I'm going to go ahead and play a few turns, since the plan that was green is still being followed except for some details. I know you guys are as anxious as I am to see the other team's threads.

17t... cross your fingers!

BUT!!! Don't forget that galleons, unlike caravels, can't ignore closed borders! If we have to go through Hatty's culture to get to MM/HC then we'll have to still be at war.

As an ace in the hole, I was thinking about taking Assyrian from Hatty when/if she captures it so we would have a backup sea route to MM (if he's not accessible from Satsuma). Use our worker to spy on Hatty's attack up north--if she takes it, maybe start moving units from Babylon to take it away from her. That might need quite a few more units than we have now (especially cannon) so keep pumping 'em out.

Last thing--I kept our supermedic in Babylon in case Hatty sent her big stack back after we DoW'd, and couldn't send it east until Nippur was captured. It's on the way now, but perhaps it'll be of more use up north if we go after Assyrian?? Probably better to use in the east, though.

One more last thing . Do the AP vote counting carefully! Remember that our votes count double, so it's not a simple swap if we give cities away. We might actually need more population (courtesy of Hatty) to get the votes we need. Good luck!

Xcalibrator said:

BUT!!! Don't forget that galleons, unlike caravels, can't ignore closed borders! If we have to go through Hatty's culture to get to MM/HC then we'll have to still be at war.

As an ace in the hole, I was thinking about taking Assyrian from Hatty when/if she captures it so we would have a backup sea route to MM (if he's not accessible from Satsuma). Use our worker to spy on Hatty's attack up north--if she takes it, maybe start moving units from Babylon to take it away from her. That might need quite a few more units than we have now (especially cannon) so keep pumping 'em out.

Last thing--I kept our supermedic in Babylon in case Hatty sent her big stack back after we DoW'd, and couldn't send it east until Nippur was captured. It's on the way now, but perhaps it'll be of more use up north if we go after Assyrian?? Probably better to use in the east, though.

One more last thing . Do the AP vote counting carefully! Remember that our votes count double, so it's not a simple swap if we give cities away. We might actually need more population (courtesy of Hatty) to get the votes we need. Good luck!

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Good points. I'll play in about 4 hrs, so if you think of anything else, or we need to think about something more, then let me know. I'll check here first.

We're only a few XPs from another Great General. Remember that the GG is generated in the city that built the unit that puts us over the threshold, so you can choose where you want it. I'd probably go for another supermedic so we can have one in the east and one in the north--have a 9XP explorer ready to go.

Status: Traded for astro + Sci meth. Spy failed in stealing physics (72% odds), try again next turn. Took Memphis. Since no physics took Hatty's map for peace. It doesn't show a lot, but it shows enough. It shows that we cannot get to Mansa from Satsuma.

We should steal Physics and ensure that taking Assyrian (now egyptian) would give us the access we need.

The vote in 4t should be used to force OB. We should like to have the option of taking a Persian city or taking Assyrian. Assyrian takes longer, since there is now 10 turns forced peace with Hatty. We have the forces to plane Hatty at Assyrian, and it wouldn't take more than 10t to get there. But then there is the revolt period, etc.

So the 17t window appears to be unattainable unless better minds than mine can fix it. I'm going to continue playing until Physics and verification of access to MM. Then I'll pause for discussion.

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Would it help to reassign Assyrian to Cyrus with the AP vote so that we could then DoW Cyrus (and not have to wait 10 turns for peace with Hatty to expire)? [Edit: Hmm, maybe Assyrian requires Hinduism in order to be restored?] I assume you checked that Hatty wasn't willing to give us Assyrian for peace?

I see you're running a Golden Age--good. And with luck, in 4 turns we'll get the right kind of GP to run another one if we want.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Unusual_Suspects_SG015_AD1650_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

The log is a lot of nonsense fighting...

Anyhow, on the good side, even though the first two spy attempts at stealing physics failed, the third worked. I played until we had enough map knowledge to know how to get to Mansa the best way.

There are 3 cities (two Persian, one Mongol) which can access Mansagawa's single tile that opens to the world.

The AP vote comes up at end turn, and I suggest doing the OB resolution (might not come up since Cyrus/GK are at war and we cant bribe to stop that... but we'll see). Do NOT use the AP to force peace anywhere, if that's the only resolution.

If we cannot force OB, we are looking at another war with Hatty in 10t just to cross her territory (if AP OB doesn't work). We are also looking at a war with either Cyrus or GK. Shear logistics say that stationing the force in Persia when we DOW GK is the fastest way to take one of the required cities. They are both very weak and I've started troop movements already, because its a long haul.

We could do naval invasion from Satsuma, but that's the longer way, I think.

Anyhow, open the save, weep, then brainstorm how to get this done. HC we can gift Satsuma whenever. Mansa, we need to get there, and the road is in the north.

Was Neil born difficult or did he train hard to become?

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Edit: OK, logistically it is probably just as simple to station in Mongolia and DOW Cyrus. But this presumes we will not be fighting Hatty simultaneously. Note, gift Satsuma to HC and/or infect one of his cities before war with Hatty. If AP can get us OB, then no prob. If not, then the forces in Egypt will have to protect Kyoto choke point after we infect HC.

Do we need to worry about defensive pacts that GK or Cyrus have with others?

Xcalibrator said:

Do we need to worry about defensive pacts that GK or Cyrus have with others?

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No, can't have DP when at war.

But I did come up with an idea to win at the 17t mark (now 10t).

get a Hmish closest to MM as possible and close borders... Transcontinental Teleportation! Could avoid the need of waiting for a bunch of slow fighting units to get where they need to go, if we can get OB by AP and move a mish there. Note, Satsuma is still showing Caravel in its build queue, so caravel a mish to GK might work if we don't get the OB, but I expect it changes to frigate IBT.

Anyhow, teleportation, if it works in predictable ways, is faster and less diplomatically sensiotive than a bunch of war declarations. Note, I think we have diplo to spare with Shaka and can gift Babylon, so we have the diplo to spare for more DOW's if needed.

So I will play around with some teleportation scenarios in wb and try to figure out if transcon is a feasible solution to our t17 (now 10t) victory. It will take me another 12 hrs. But with the end within either 10 or 20 turns, its worth the short pause. If team members want to help test teleporting and/or have some other ideas for making the 10t win goal, great! At worst, I see religious VC in 20t. But I want it in 10!!!!

(Note, I resigned DP's with Liz and Shaka after peace with Hatty, but that is no problem for our plans unlesss someone else does something strange).

Great progress. Can gift Satsuma!!

At this point I am just trying to keep up with the action and will need to be an observer.

Silly question - have we confirmed that we need both teammates infected for the vote? It seems that way from the voting screen, I just don't recall a game with teams and seeing how the voting works.

On the teleporting, Old Saria may be worth a try. It is 8 tiles from MM which is closer than any Liz tile. Also shares culture borders.

For the backup plan - DOWing GK brings Shaka in against us right because of Shaka / GK DP. And Shaka has a lot of Cuirs in Akkad. Would need some strong defense in Babylon. Seems like DOWing cyrus and taking Ecb is more straight-forward. But lots of turns waiting for city to come out of revolt.

Have we tried the Airship missionary transport mod?

Unfortunately will not have time to test so I am not adding a whole lot of value.

Keep up the great work!!!

1 tile? Neil clearly loves to see us suffer. *headdesk*

Do the teleporting model, its the best, but prepare for the fast war option anyway. And we do know BOTH need to be infected.

SteelHorse said:

Silly question - have we confirmed that we need both teammates infected for the vote? It seems that way from the voting screen, I just don't recall a game with teams and seeing how the voting works.

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Yes. Someone confirmed it previously.

Old Saria looks good. So does Ulundi.
Playtesting of teleporting is a good idea.
If we go from Old Sarai, do we need to close borders with England and Persia first?
From Ulundi (1S) only need to close Zulu borders and it is closer.

I would be more comfortable if we sent a missionary and infected Vilcas - Hatty might recapture Satsuma. OTOH, that's a lot more votes for Incagawa.

Yeah, I tested in wb a game with teams and the victory vote did not come up until all AI were infected, meaning both member of a team. WB is WB, though, and mistakes can be made, so I suggest someone else verify that it is so before we play the next turn. If all we had to do was gift Satsuma to HC, the game would be over in 1t. Its worth another test, even though I'm pretty sure of the result.

Conundrum: I realize now that peace with Hatty was maybe not so great -- in order to get through her territory we'll need OB and the only way to get OB is to force it with the AP, and that would prevent teleporting in time for the vote in 10t because we would not be able to cancel OB for 10t. On the bright side, the peace with Hatty can be broken in 5t if we need to escort a mish through hostile egyptian territory.

If teleporting from Shakaland would work, then we're golden for win in 10t. As I understand it, the teleporting moves the unit to the nearest UNOCCUPIED eligible tile, but I'm not sure how water barriers and mountains and fogged territory might affect it.

So... I want to spend the next few hours playing with my teleporter in WB... beam me outta here Scotty. Potentially saves 10t on finish date. I'll report back what I find out. Maybe do a literature search on the forum first... just to make it sound like work.

OK... I think we can win this at the 10t vote.

I made a maze map with only 2tiles wide so that all civs were sequential in the maze but some technically closer in number of tiles than others. Teleporting at first seems a bit random, but its a computer game so it definitely must follow some rules. I think I've got it figured out, but if anyone else wants to test, you are welcome (best if you make your own map because my map is always giving same result). Here's what I am pretty confident about:

Teleporting goes to the nearest available tile not occupied by an enemy, but may be occupied by a friend. However, there are some restrictions on that: as far as I can judge, there has to be a theoretically valid path to get there... like trade route access. If there are no routes anywhere, it goes back home.

So the ONLY place teleporting should work (if my thesis is correct), is from Mongolia. Only Mongolia has trade route access to MM.

AND I have solved my conundrum on how to get there. Do you want to know how? On your knees and beg and I just might tell you.

Pre Play Plan - the last

Goals: Victory in 12t (AP vote this turn- no resolution; 10 more turns AP vote, then 1t wait for vote results to be counted).

Diplo: Keep Shaka Friendly by avoiding spies being caught in his land, and having spies nearby ready to flip him to merc if needed. (MM is in Free Trade, so others may follow).

EP: Heavy on Shaka, moderate on Liz, low but not zero on rest. Aim - keep as many in Merc as possible to discourage Shaka from changing.

Key unit moves: 2 Hmiss in west move to Assyrian border (5t, no movement left) and are teleported instantly to other side of Assyrian by cancelling OB with Shaka (no diplo hit for this). Then it is 3.5 turns of walking (running?) to New Sarai, where they are teleported to MM by cancelling OB with GK. (Note, if GK stops war and gets OB with Cyrus, I must close borders with Cyrus first. Or if he wins a route to Liz, I must close borders with Liz. We have no OB with Hatty so not a problem on that side... only one place for them to go!) Gift immediately both H-miss to MM. (Even if he drops theo, AI odds of successful infection are much greater than the player's at any level above noble). 9t from now MM is hinduized.

City actions: Whip caravel and load with Hmiss that is most eastern. When offshore, gift Satsuma to HC. Move H-miss to HC territory and hold, in the event that Satsuma is gifted back to Hatty or flips to us or something else terrible happens, we gift the Hmiss to HC.

Make AP checks:
A) Shaka still friendly; B) all AI are now members; C) we do not have too many votes to allow DV option (gift cities to Shaka as needed, with margin to account for pop decrease in gifted cities or pop gains in ours)

End turn, select Diplo Victory option, vote for Ghandi, score padding by trading Biology for any tech we can get, wait for result, win game.

Failure is not an option! The vote after the 10t vote is an election, so we either win in 10 or at best in 30. Failure is not an option!

Reference number: 11785
Game: C-IV SGOTM 15
Your team: Unusual Suspects
Your name: kcd_swede
Date submitted: 2012-05-16
Software Version: BtS 3.19
Game date: 1710AD
Player race: India
Firaxis score: 2173
Session time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:59:00
Total time played (hh:mm:ss): 49:22:18
Game status: Religious Victory for India
Submitted save: Gandhi AD-1710 win sg15.CivBeyondSwordSave
Renamed file: Unusual_Suspects_SG015_AD1710_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

more report in an hour or so.... but that's the important part! Congrats, and thanks everyone for a fun and exciting game!

kcd_swede said:

Reference number: 11785
Game: C-IV SGOTM 15
Your team: Unusual Suspects
Your name: kcd_swede
Date submitted: 2012-05-16
Software Version: BtS 3.19
Game date: 1710AD
Player race: India
Firaxis score: 2173
Session time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:59:00
Total time played (hh:mm:ss): 49:22:18
Game status: Religious Victory for India
Submitted save: Gandhi AD-1710 win sg15.CivBeyondSwordSave
Renamed file: Unusual_Suspects_SG015_AD1710_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

more report in an hour or so.... but that's the important part! Congrats, and thanks everyone for a fun and exciting game!

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Very well done sirs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My hero! That took some real investigation and steely nerves to follow what it said. And saving time with the teleport-across-Persia trick was brilliant! I'm now off to check other threads, etc. Have you informed Alan?

Good game !