Ruleset Discussion

WPC would like to see all image files banned from team diplomacy prior to in-game discovery of Paper. We think any kind of text should be fine though.
 
I would say provided that text doesn't make rule useless. The text should only give approximate knowledge of map, like a direction (N, S, E, W, NE, NW, SE, SW) and a distance qualifier (near, far), and should not be used to describe map, but for instance to agree on frontier or warm of a barbarian.
 
Speaking for my team: BTW, WPC wants only to ban images. We don't support limiting text communication.

Inao said:
The text should only give approximate knowledge of map, like a direction (N, S, E, W, NE, NW, SE, SW)
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Speaking for myself: (Though certainly some other members of my team voiced the same concerns.) How approximate is approximate?

You can only go so detailed before you're practically discussing individual tiles. You can only go so vague before attempting communication is useless, hence the drive for detail.

Again: I have yet to hear a satisfactorily specific rule for controlling text that will avoid argument and recrimination in the case of strict enforcement, or teams essentially playing under different rules in the case of loose enforcement that leaves everyone to their own devices.
 
Double move/timer split rule proposal. We're going to need this regardless of whether we have a mod, because the mod does not protect against double moves in the first turn of war. It also doesn't protect against teams not at war colluding to assist teams at war, amongst other things.

Here is the rule for discussion:

1) Settling Races: Teams must wait 12 hours between moves for all settlers in disputed areas. You cannot move at the end of a turn, and then immediate re-move at the start of the next turn.

2) (a) Turn Before Declaring War: The attacker must move their units during the first 6 hours on the turn before declaring war, to avoid a double move.

(b) Declaring War: Attackers must declare war in the first 6 hours of the turn. Upon declaring war, the attacker immediately takes the first half of the timer split. The defender must log out until either the attacker finishes turn or the first half of the turn split ends. The attacker has until the end of the first half of the timer split to complete his turn, whereupon he must log out and cannot log back in until the first half of the turn split during the next turn.

Since the defender will always have a chance to play the second half of the turn the attacker should make every reasonable effort to declare war at the very start of the turn to avoid confusion.

(c) Declaring War While at War: Teams at war occupying second half of a turn-time may declare war at any time during the second half of the turn-timer. The team they declare war on then occupies the first half of the turn-timer the following turn. If the team who is declared on has yet to move during the turn of declaration, that team can still move their units during the second half of the turn-timer for that one turn only. Teams occupying the first half of the turn timer must obey rule 2) (a) and rule 2) (b).

(d) Turn Timer Extensions: Teams at war may request a maximum of 24 additional hours added to the turn timer for the first turn of a war. Starting from the second turn the turn timer will be extended by 24 hours for the duration of the war.

3) (a) Joining an Existing War: Teams joining a side in an existing war on the must take the same half of the clock timer (first half attacker, second half defender). Teams must synchronize playing time with turn timer half of their respective side on the turn before declaring war.

(b) Free-For-Alls: War declarations between teams sharing the same half of the turn timer due to ongoing wars must obey rule 2) (a) and rule 2) (b) for the specific turn timer half the teams occupy. This rule overrides rule 2) (c). Additional turn timer changes will be adjudicated by the game admin.

4) Turn Actions during War: During their half of the timer split, teams can take all normal civ actions. Once the attacker(s) have all ended turn, or after half the turn timer has passed, their turn is over and the defender(s) turn begins. When it is not their turn in wartime, teams may NOT log into the game.

5) Resource Bombing/Sabotage: Resources cannot be disconnected by spies or bombs the turn they are connected. Resources cannot be connected the turn they are disconnected by spies or bombs.

This prevents teams occupying the second half of the turn timer keeping resources constantly disconnected due to turn timer mechanics. Please document with pictures and inform the game admin and the opposing team as appropriate when this situation may occur.

6) Dispute Resolution: Double moves that confer unfair competitive advantages to any team are not allowed. Please respect both the spirit and the letter of the rules. The game admin has sole authority to resolve disputes and administer appropriate corrective action.



Summary: No unfair double moves

No cheesy settler double moves
Teams declaring war must declare in the first 6 hours
When you attack you must attack in the first 6 hours and take first half of the turn split; defender takes the second half
You have to join your ally's time split when entering a pre-existing war
No logging in when it is not your turn


Example:
Team A wishes to declare war on Team B. Team A plays in the first 6 hours of the turn BEFORE the war declaration, then declares war in the first 6 hours of the following turn. Team A thereafter always plays in the first half, and Team B always plays in the second half, until the war ends.
Click to expand...
Once again I reiterate that this is required regardless of whether or not we have a mod.
 
I'm not sure I understand the restriction on not logging in, especially for the case where your team has ended turn, with "*" showing. It is impossible for team A to take actions in that state that have any effect on what team B does.
 
DaveShack said:
I'm not sure I understand the restriction on not logging in, especially for the case where your team has ended turn, with "*" showing. It is impossible for team A to take actions in that state that have any effect on what team B does.
Click to expand...
Even after ending turn, you can still move units, change builds, whip and draft cities, change research, and so on. This was written from the perspective of not having a mod to restrict logins. Some of it may be rendered redundant if we use the mod, but this way we cover all our bases - whether in case of not using a mod, or in case of a loophole being found in the mod.

I still firmly suggest we do not use this game as a testing ground for a new version of a mod, especially since the mod culls player numbers and only provides partial protection against double moves. Using the above ruleset combined with Civstats would work far better and without excluding anyone from playing.
 
They affect the following turn though. If Team A plays, then Team B moves in a stack out of the fog, then Team A logs back in and changes its builds/research and whips/drafts units in response to the new information, that will affect Team B's chances of e.g. taking a city.
 
A few words about how my mod works.

The turn lenght is always the same to all players.

So it would not be necessary declaring Wars at first 6 hours.
Always the attacked player has 24 hours more.

Ee didn't want to implement the first turn war double move rule in the mod.
but if it is implemented on the web,a warning is sent to the game admin at this case.

War at second half of turn:

if team A plays before team B at turn X-1.
The team A should declare war as the second turn
If team A plays 5 minutes before the end of the turn, team B has a problem.
On the web there will be a button (I want to declare war as second )
Team B may click it and when team A finish his turn Team B will have 24 hours to play
safely without the admin having to do anything.
 
What happens for the players not at war - can they play at any time?

And what physically happens with the game timer? Does it start at 24 hours, then jump back to 24 hours after A has played? Or does it show 48 hours at the start?
 
Lord Parkin said:
What happens for the players not at war - can they play at any time?

And what physically happens with the game timer? Does it start at 24 hours, then jump back to 24 hours after A has played? Or does it show 48 hours at the start?
Click to expand...

Players not at war finish their turn ( * ) at the normal timer ( 24 hours from turns begin). but they may enter as often as they wants after this obviously.

Mod internally uses a counter for each player and places the minimum of all at general timer.
 
The turn goes on and all other have to make their before ending the last warrrior, what is, if the tp doesn't end the turn, it's often so.

Another cause
A and B are in league, C and D also; A declare war at C and B don't D; what is, when D declare war at B? First in the rules, but also in the mod, if there is after some time war between A and D or B and C?

I don't think you can dlear all possibilities (I can think of) in algorithm!
 
I don't understand the settler rule. If indeed two players are going to the same spot, or an overlapping one, and are aware of each other - who should decide who gets to settle? As long as we're doing simultanious turns, isn't it fair that whoever gets there first, or is willing to settle first - in real time - gets the spot?
 
tobiasn said:
I don't understand the settler rule. If indeed two players are going to the same spot, or an overlapping one, and are aware of each other - who should decide who gets to settle? As long as we're doing simultanious turns, isn't it fair that whoever gets there first, or is willing to settle first - in real time - gets the spot?
Click to expand...
That then encourages clock games; deliberately trying to arrange things so you can be in the game instantly upon the turn flip to make sure that you settle first in a tight situation. Better to discourage (or outlaw) that sort of behavior.
 
I get that, but who decides who gets the spot? Coin-toss? :D

To be more precise: When REXing you probably don't know that your opponent is heading for the same spot as you. Or you know, and it's a race anyway. And then you both are heading for the same tile/tiles. Noone is the "agressor", and it's fair game - unclaimed land is up for grabs. Right? So if noone is more "entitled" than the other, what constitutes a "cheesy" move?
 
These settling issues should be resolved by diplomacy or failing in that by military..

On a different topic: am I the only one who thinks we should avoid early elimination by chance? I mean the not soo unlikely event when a wandering warrior finds an unprotected city which is busy producing its first workers. And it's pure luck because the civ which have sent that warrior also left her capital undefended. (it happens time to time and it sucks big time if it's in a big game like this)
Proposal: a 25-30 turn forced peace between teams.- or something like that.
 
tobiasn said:
I get that, but who decides who gets the spot? Coin-toss? :D

To be more precise: When REXing you probably don't know that your opponent is heading for the same spot as you. Or you know, and it's a race anyway. And then you both are heading for the same tile/tiles. Noone is the "agressor", and it's fair game - unclaimed land is up for grabs. Right? So if noone is more "entitled" than the other, what constitutes a "cheesy" move?
Click to expand...
It's a rather specific situation, but it crops up from time to time. One example would be double moving a settler to "bump" rival units out of position, especially where you could not have safely moved and settled the city without a double move.

But if both teams move their settlers more than 12 hours before the turn flip, it's fair game. :)

mzprox said:
These settling issues should be resolved by diplomacy or failing in that by military..

On a different topic: am I the only one who thinks we should avoid early elimination by chance? I mean the not soo unlikely event when a wandering warrior finds an unprotected city which is busy producing its first workers. And it's pure luck because the civ which have sent that warrior also left her capital undefended. (it happens time to time and it sucks big time if it's in a big game like this)
Proposal: a 25-30 turn forced peace between teams.- or something like that.
Click to expand...
If you're concerned, build a Warrior first... or don't let your initial Warrior stray too far. I think a rule of enforced peace would be cheesier than the move itself. It's quite easy to defend yourself if you want to... I'm sure Plako will have spaced starts appropriately.
 
Lord Parkin said:
If you're concerned, build a Warrior first... or don't let your initial Warrior stray too far. I think a rule of enforced peace would be cheesier than the move itself. It's quite easy to defend yourself if you want to... I'm sure Plako will have spaced starts appropriately.
Click to expand...

No pro player would start with a warrior when a worker makes more sense for development, also very unlikely they would not send the first unit to explore. I was reading one of Sulla's game report where this early elimination happened to one team, the consensus is that's pure luck. And that sucks in a game where we try to rule out every randomness.
 
mzprox said:
No pro player would start with a warrior when a worker makes more sense for development, also very unlikely they would not send the first unit to explore. I was reading one of Sulla's game report where this early elimination happened to one team, the consensus is that's pure luck. And that sucks in a game where we try to rule out every randomness.
Click to expand...
It's more a player take a quick chance, not the AI gives some a bad/good luck.
If one thinks, he has a chance to eliminate an other good. If this fails, he has lost all chances in this game. Early war with a neighbour costs the victory, I think.
 
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