Inter-Religion Balance Points

So we currently have a heated debate going over whether we should ditch choose religions or not.

Despite being a major proponent of keeping the option, I must concede that I can understand the concerns and mod goals that drive the motion to dismiss it.

What happened since vanilla, here in C2C in particular, has been the shift from an "all religions are equal" approach to an "all religions have their own benefits and features" approach. Now that its been brought up and really highlighted, I can also understand that some of the team has been evolving religions towards a "the benefits of religions become more valuable as technology expands and provides access to more advanced religious philosophies and worldviews."

It's that last bit that's causing a problem for the vanilla rooted game option of Choose Religions.

I'm sure those who wish to see the option go would site some of the following:

• Benefits of Primitive religion shrines are primarily cultural in nature and as such only really offer great benefit to a developing city.
• Primitive Religious buildings are obsoleting along the tech tree, making their optional selection in lategame a bit moot.
• Some advanced and mid-game religious building benefits offer simply too great an edge to maintain game balance: Voodoo's production makes things extremely easy for a developing player, Scientology's outrageous gold output makes an early nation never want for gold and as a result, research, Asatru makes an early civ fairly unchallengeable militarily, etc...
• As a result, Choose Religions becomes basically a cheap cheat option that throws off any real game evaluation and gamebalance feedback we get from the players that are playing and reporting back.

While I somewhat agree with all of these statements, I have another perspective.

I feel that what we have is more of a flavor assessment. One player has an extremely difficult time trying to monopolize on ALL religions so they are going to be somewhat spread out if we've done our techtree right. Therefore, we are left, on Choose Religions, having to prioritorize among a lot of different benefits, not one necessarily better than another, all different. You shouldn't want to miss out on any of them, but have to concede that you will miss out on some and make your own personal evaluation based on your own personal preferences in playstyle.

I also personally feel that we can be true to both Choose Religions ON and Choose Religions OFF in our religious designs.

How can we do this?

There are a few points to keep in mind I think:

1)First, we make each religious choice more about getting a particular set of primary and secondary benefits. The way I see our religions, we already have this to an extent. We just need to actually identify what they are and where religions are overlapping a lot, which they still do on most of the originals, we need to really come together to determine what they SHOULD be giving as opposed to the other religions' benefits.

2)It's possible to slant religious benefits to be greater in some eras than others. We already do this too. For example, Asatru doesn't mean a hill of beans for your newer troops after gunpowder is introduced. But perhaps some of the really imbalancing factors could be considered enforced into an era basis. For example, some benefits for a religion should have to wait, or obsolete... again... we're already doing this.

Thus, the astute Choose Religion player must bear in mind that they can't just cheat ahead to all the benefits of a religion... many buildings those religions offer may be a long ways off still.

So where we have great imbalance, we could bring it back into balance by enforcing that the imbalanced factor be allowed only in the era of that religion's strength, staying true to the 'tech tree'. For example, we could make Scientology's extra gold per city on its shrine separated off into being a benefit that only activates once the modern era is reached.


Anyhow, I'm starting this discussion so we can frame our debates here, and so that we can really look at the primary benefits of each religion and start navigating them further towards their established play-style purpose.

I beg of the rest of the design team to give Choose Religions a chance to prove its possible to not only make religions balanced to tech progression, but ALSO to a variety of playstyles under a freedom to choose basis.

So lets take a look at our religions and put forward what we currently feel the real benefits and weaknesses of each are. And what we personally feel they SHOULD be, if they aren't really following a particular line of concept.

Apologies for not exactly answering the questions, but I just wondered about the game effect of having a Tech pre-req for the religious shrine? In the two religions I prefer (Confucianism and Asatru), it's actually the shrine that gives the material benefit, not the actual religion. Similar for Zoroastrianism (+1 happiness all cities), Judaism (+15% income at the Holy City), and some others. I can see some game benefit in that I could "reserve" my prefered religions, but not "cheat the tech tree" since I could not build the valuable shrine until the necessary tech.

On the down side it gets a bit weird since the religious Techs are currently linked more to the religion than the shrine. Under my proposal it gets a bit counter-intuitive. Why does discovering Ship Building suddenly improve the XP of melee units? Why does discovering the Caste System suddenly make my cities happy?

I think this would only requires some XML changes, which I could perform on my own to trial. (when I finish this stoooopid business trip! - I miss playing C2C!!!!)

Tbh I think that reaching certain techs triggers religion founding but on the other hand the religion fitting to that tech not being the one founded because of Choose Religion doesn't make sense.
If you want a specific religion, you can choose that by beelining for the tech, but beelining for shamanism and then choosing the monotheistic religion Christianity is weird.

@T-Bird,

I do have to agree as to leaving it as an Option for those that enjoy it. You're going thru the same process I went thru trying to keep REV from being made mandatory. So I can empathize with your viewpoint.

You've stated that you've cleaned up the Choose Option which was the basis for my disapproval of it. It was a "dirty/buggy" Option before you worked on it. And since I have not used it recently I must pull back my objection to it.

@AIAndy,
Actually bee-lining for shaman or any of the early religions and then later choosing, as your ex. Christianity isn't that weird. The early benefits of the early religions are desirable. But by the time I reach Med to Ren Era's religions like Christianity have have a stronger appeal.

For ex. up to the most recent changes to the techtree I've gotten into the habit of bee-lining to Tengrii. If I get it 1st I spread it to every city (the reason is quite obvious). But as Monotheism approaches I also bee-line to it. And if I get Mono 1st the next tech Mathematics has Shinto Religion. And since I got Mono 1st invariably I'll get Shinto 1st too. Which in turn puts me in line to get Buddhism/monasteries 1st also. These 4 religions provide a resource, science, gold, and production boost to my empire by spreading them all. But by the time I reach the age of Mechanized Units Tengrii has lost its value for unit building (the horse line) and is only good for culture. It's at this time that I switch my Empires Religion to either Judaism or Christianity (if I founded Christian 1st). So my religion choice changes as the game progresses.

On a side note, and an important one in my viewpoint, until we place the actual tech for founding any religion "one off" from the current progression in the tech tree we will continue to suffer from Spiritual leaders and aggressive players in having 1 or 2 players (player or AI) found the majority of all the religions. It's become a bit better with the latest tech tree additions but we still have major clusters where the 1st one to get to Religion tech A also has the 1st chance at Religion tech B, C, D, etc.. We did break up the Poly/Mono chain several versions back but didn't continue with it. With Mathematics/ Buddhism/Monasteries directly available after getting Monotheism you have a prime example of the problem. Shinto should be a "one off" tech after Mathematics. Or removed from Math and placed in different path. Same for Buddhism, but this tech should really be renamed Monasteries with Buddhism a "one off" tech from it. These "one off tech" that actually give the Religion can even be dead ends in the tech tree. But they don't have to be if it causes problems specifically with the AI (which I personally don't see). Thus the founding of a Religion would have to be a conscious decision and not a tech progression windfall as it is now in many instances.

JosEPh

AIAndy said:

If you want a specific religion, you can choose that by beelining for the tech, but beelining for shamanism and then choosing the monotheistic religion Christianity is weird.

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And teeing off the normal player wanting to play the game the correct way without cheating also.

Sure, SO, I can understand that. But its not like having the option present means you have to use it! If I were playing in a group of human players, I'd certainly vote more towards having the option off.

I'm thinking I'm liking the tech requirement on the shrines. That appears to me to be 90% of a fix right there, and one I think I'd feel perfectly content utilizing.

The charm of Choose Religions lies more in the ability to have options, not being hedged into the religion you're given, and being able to play more towards your own style than the style you've been given to play. Bee-lining is not a perfect solution to getting those rel's you want more than anything. I don't prefer it because its a 'cheat' but because it means I can play towards my style more. And besides, at least one or two AI players usually make out pretty well too so it tends to balance out.

I also fully agree with you on the dead-end techs for religions theory Joe... I think that could go a long ways towards making sure that religions get spread out between various civilizations more thinly.


@DH: I was considering this morning... about the modification you were wanting to implement. Does Choose Religions somehow disrupt that mod? Is that part of your outlook on this matter?

Some examples from the Techtree .xls that was posted by MrAzure. Colore coded to illustrate the "one off" tech placement to get tech that actually allows Religion to be founded. The current Meritocracy and Confucianism could be included too.

JosEPh

I think some religions need their wonders reworked. Hinduism has powerful +10% everything bonus. Same goes to Islam and Taoism. I think Confucianism has similar wonder but I cant remember it.

zeinul said:

I think some religions need their wonders reworked. Hinduism has powerful +10% everything bonus. Same goes to Islam and Taoism. I think Confucianism has similar wonder but I cant remember it.

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Andaeism is awesome for science (and gold for that matter with its wonders)

They all have Wonders that are wonderful. It has been suggested that how wonderful should match to your state religion ie you only get the full benefit from a religious wonder when your state religion is the same as the religion it belongs to. This is why I have requested tags for this functionality. (Having then on/off is too big a cost.)

I agree with JosEPh. Having a separate dead end tech that provides nothing but the religion would be a very good thing. I often end up getting many of the religions because I am Beelining to a particular tech. Which is why I like using Divine Prophets. I don't found the religions I don't want. It wouldn't be to hard to fix the AI either. Just give each leader a favorite religion, they won't necessarily Beeline for said religion, but they will try to get there first. Give them a second and third favorite as well in case someone beats them to their favorite, or their favorite comes much later in the tech tree. They could go for their third favorite and use that one until their number one favorite becomes technologically available. Then make them ignore religions they don't care about so someone else can get them.
It might also be interesting to see an AI start a holy war to claim the holy city of their favorite religion. But that is a whole different subject.

JosEPh_II said:

But as Monotheism approaches I also bee-line to it. And if I get Mono 1st the next tech Mathematics has Shinto Religion. And since I got Mono 1st invariably I'll get Shinto 1st too. Which in turn puts me in line to get Buddhism/monasteries

On a side note, and an important one in my viewpoint, until we place the actual tech for founding any religion "one off" from the current progression in the tech tree we will continue to suffer from Spiritual leaders and aggressive players in having 1 or 2 players (player or AI) found the majority of all the religions. It's become a bit better with the latest tech tree additions but we still have major clusters where the 1st one to get to Religion tech A also has the 1st chance at Religion tech B, C, D, etc.. We did break up the Poly/Mono chain several versions back but didn't continue with it. With Mathematics/ Buddhism/Monasteries directly available after getting Monotheism you have a prime example of the problem. Shinto should be a "one off" tech after Mathematics. Or removed from Math and placed in different path. Same for Buddhism, but this tech should really be renamed Monasteries with Buddhism a "one off" tech from it. These "one off tech" that actually give the Religion can even be dead ends in the tech tree. But they don't have to be if it causes problems specifically with the AI (which I personally don't see). Thus the founding of a Religion would have to be a conscious decision and not a tech progression windfall as it is now in many instances.

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I was noticing that Meditation just requires monotheism, which seems a bit odd. I agree we need to split up the religions over techs that are not so linear. Also I am wondering if Shintoism is appropriate for math tech. From what I read on wikpedia it seemed more like a religion of ancestor worship and nature spirits. I am not sure where the math connection came in. I would say move it to ancestor worship but then Kemetisim comes right after at Stargazing tech. Which makes it worse.

EDIT: I am really leaning towards having each religion be its own tech and make sure their tech requirements fit the religion.

Hydromancerx said:

I was noticing that Meditation just requires monotheism, which seems a bit odd. I agree we need to split up the religions over techs that are not so linear. Also I am wondering if Shintoism is appropriate for math tech. From what I read on wikpedia it seemed more like a religion of ancestor worship and nature spirits. I am not sure where the math connection came in. I would say move it to ancestor worship but then Kemetisim comes right after at Stargazing tech. Which makes it worse.

EDIT: I am really leaning towards having each religion be its own tech and make sure their tech requirements fit the religion.

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You would need to read the discussion from when we introduced Shinto and Shamanism. There is an "early" version of Shinto that would fit on ancestor worship.

KingArthur666 said:

I agree with JosEPh. Having a separate dead end tech that provides nothing but the religion would be a very good thing. I often end up getting many of the religions because I am Beelining to a particular tech. Which is why I like using Divine Prophets. I don't found the religions I don't want. It wouldn't be to hard to fix the AI either. Just give each leader a favorite religion, they won't necessarily Beeline for said religion, but they will try to get there first. Give them a second and third favorite as well in case someone beats them to their favorite, or their favorite comes much later in the tech tree. They could go for their third favorite and use that one until their number one favorite becomes technologically available. Then make them ignore religions they don't care about so someone else can get them.
It might also be interesting to see an AI start a holy war to claim the holy city of their favorite religion. But that is a whole different subject.

Click to expand...

The ai actually should be working exactly like that from the way it was initially conceived. I think I did put in a fix to the ai never wanting to found a religion that may have been added without any flavors so that the ai will use a prophet for a religion it finds little to no value in if its all the options it has anyhow. But now that some other things have been repaired, it might be good to revisit that again to let them give some a miss. They do have ways of evaluating their preferences, their favorite being first regardless.

IRT holy wars to claim their favorite religion's holy city, the original Vanilla CivIV ai did that but I don't know if its been somehow removed in all the evolutions that lead up to C2C.




OK, so this conversation is getting off course a bit.

Let's focus it somewhat. The first two religions to become available are Druidism and Animism. Let's take a moment to take some appraisal of those particular religions. What are the exact strengths and weaknesses of those religions? How do they benefit the age they emerge in and not so much outside of it?

Without opening up the game, my initial assessment of those two were that they were practically identical. Since I haven't given them a full in-depth look, I'm not sure how they may vary in their benefits. I know both of them grant a lot of culture to the holy city through the shrine when well spread and that they both give a lot of access to additional food. Are they worth anything more? What differentiates them?

Ngai and Nahgulism (sp?) are 2 early religions that also suffer from the linear advancement as they are attached to bottleneck techs.

Druid and Shaman being the 1st religions available are almost always founded by different players. Ngai gets caught in an early path convergence and could come earlier when there are still path choices before Sed Life.

Tengrii is also an early one that the AI has a 'fair" chance at "If" (big If) it gets to Sed life 1st. If it does not the player will probably snatch it up given that with the free tech Sed Life gives, the player can take the 1st animal riding tech which then leads to the Horse tech that Tengrii is attached to. That's how I do it anyway.

The player obviously "bee-lines" better than the AI in most cases. The rare except that I have found is Druid. I seem to come up 1 or 2 turns short of getting every game. But have a 50/50 shot at Shaman. I have found that if I get Shaman I have a better chance at getting Ngai and Tengrii before the AI can.

JosEPh

The four early religions are:-
- Druidism bonuses from grains (and potato prob needs others also) 2 cathedrals one of which gives no from buildings. Shrine gives culture only.
- Shamanism bonuses from herd bonuses, 2 cathedrals one of which gives no from buildings. Shrine gives culture only.
- Ngai and bonuses from cattle, promotions from other buildings. Shrine gives culture only.
- Tengrii special horse supply building, promotions for mounted units. Shrine gives culture only
- Mesopotamian - I forget, special bonuses especially to archers
- Nughal - ?

Ok, thanks DH! I'm reserving this spot for when I time to comment on what you posted there.

I feel religion benefits should not be predefined, but grow with your actions throughout the game. That way your religion grows to become a reflection of your civ.

I almost feel like the religion itself should have a set of civics that define what bonuses it, and it's buildings provide. Or have a building prototype (WW), that generates a resource required to build other versions of the temples that are simple buildings. That way you build a first temple that gives you a bonus to science, now you an only build temples that give you bonus to science etc.

It's hard to plan your strategy around your religion now, because you almost never get what you want without current GP pick religion option. And if the religions grew over time, there would not be an "easy religion" for certain era. Religions would be crappy early, and they only gave you benefits if you invested in them.

My other issue with religions and this mod is Religion Decay. Does it even work? I have not witness it working at all! What are the criteria for this to work?

Astax said:

I feel religion benefits should not be predefined, but grow with your actions throughout the game. That way your religion grows to become a reflection of your civ.

I almost feel like the religion itself should have a set of civics that define what bonuses it, and it's buildings provide. Or have a building prototype (WW), that generates a resource required to build other versions of the temples that are simple buildings. That way you build a first temple that gives you a bonus to science, now you an only build temples that give you bonus to science etc.

It's hard to plan your strategy around your religion now, because you almost never get what you want without current GP pick religion option. And if the religions grew over time, there would not be an "easy religion" for certain era. Religions would be crappy early, and they only gave you benefits if you invested in them.

My other issue with religions and this mod is Religion Decay. Does it even work? I have not witness it working at all! What are the criteria for this to work?

Click to expand...

Religion Decay worked in RoM:AND but it was a prototype there. The way C2C religions work is not quite the same as in RoM:AND so it may not work here. besides there are to many pluses with multiple religions that it works for the layer and AI to keep as many as possible.

I have been thinking that perhaps the way religion works should be radically changed removing all religions that are pre Priesthood tech and replacing them with city based gods which are based on your base culture and what resources each city has. Then, again, in each city you build small temples to some of these gods and cult temples to others. When Priesthood comes around you get a reformer priest who combines all your gods in some way into a national religion. It is still an idea in progress.

I started at game on SVN version 2677 with Religious Decay on and it was working. My initial religion was Ngaiism and I had that in all 6 cities. Later I progressed to Mesopotamism and then Judaism and I noticed that every Ngaii city except the holy city lost their faith in Ngaiism.

Did not think I would like it but it is a nice feature and I recommend it. No idea if it needs any tweaking. I have not performed a detailed check, but it just feels like temples and monastaries slow down the decay, since Mesopotamism does not seem to be decaying as much as Ngaiism did.