Ruleset Discussion

Magno_uy said:
spanish team dont care, we are planning to eliminate all of you, so don't care if someone wants to suffer more than once our forces.
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I will be working this comment into the rules preamble :D.
 
Magno_uy said:
spanish team dont care, we are planning to eliminate all of you, so don't care if someone wants to suffer more than once our forces.
Click to expand...

Hohoho, I like your position! This is what I call real men and and true gamers! :goodjob:
 
Yeah, even we/CFC have backed the Ruff set kinda explicitly :)

Ruff, can you please make that one post, for easy access/reference? And do you have any feedback on the mzprox solution, that I tried to make a rule out of in post #295?

I feel we're closing in on a finalized ruleset here...
 
I too feel that we are getting closer to a rule set that the teams can vote on. I want to try and knock together a rule set for war (and war declarations) as the whole 'how to grab the turn order you want' parts remain cloudy to me.

I also like the 'mzprox solution' solution but we need a 100% positive 'the mod can do this' comment from one of the mod makers or someone who has seen the mod do this. I would hate to play 150 turns just to find out that the mod cannot execute on a rule this critical.

I find it annoying that the r_rolo1 set is still being referenced - I think it is the only set being discussed by one of the non-English speaking teams (ie Yuufo's team).
 
I do apology if we have ready combined clear ruleset somewhere and I missed it - I though all things said after this is discussion of this ruleset. Maybe it is best if you put all the clarified/combined terms in one post for clarity.
 
ok - I will do that. I'll include a draft preamble and a draft @war sections too. Note that I am about to sit down to a middle earth marathon so it will be a while.
 
ruff, we have a 100% confirmation that the mod can do this.

The "grab turn order" thing is kinda easy. I'll try to explain in no uncertain terms:

If there are two parties at war AND the war has lasted one turn (ie after the declaration turn has ended), the team that is supposed to move FIRST in the next turn has the undeniable right to FORFEIT his first turn, effectively giving the other party a double move, and grabbing the LAST TURN.

This scenario is true for every war turn after declaration. This can work also if there are several parties at war.

The important part is why, because this is the concern - specifically your team's concern - that we try to address. And if we know why we have this rule, it's much easier for the game admin to interpret in case any fringe cases occur:

A team that is not last in the turn order, and is in a position where he could be perpetually denied resources, can choose to be shuffled last in the turn order. The team takes the risk of a double move, and that he will be re-shuffled again the next turn.
 
tobiasn said:
ruff, we have a 100% confirmation that the mod can do this.

The "grab turn order" thing is kinda easy. I'll try to explain in no uncertain terms:

If there are two parties at war AND the war has lasted one turn (ie after the declaration turn has ended), the team that is supposed to move FIRST in the next turn has the undeniable right to FORFEIT his first turn, effectively giving the other party a double move, and grabbing the LAST TURN.

This scenario is true for every war turn after declaration. This can work also if there are several parties at war.

The important part is why, because this is the concern - specifically your team's concern - that we try to address. And if we know why we have this rule, it's much easier for the game admin to interpret in case any fringe cases occur:

A team that is not last in the turn order, and is in a position where he could be perpetually denied resources, can choose to be shuffled last in the turn order. The team takes the risk of a double move, and that he will be re-shuffled again the next turn.
Click to expand...

I think this is the answer to all the concerns which had left before we can proceed with voting the ruleset :woohoo:
 
tobiasn said:
A team that is not last in the turn order, and is in a position where he could be perpetually denied resources, can choose to be shuffled last in the turn order. The team takes the risk of a double move, and that he will be re-shuffled again the next turn.
Click to expand...
I like this but I would drop the 'and is in a position where he could be perpetually denied resources' part and add 'at its own discretion'.
tobiasn said:
ruff, we have a 100% confirmation that the mod can do this.
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:goodjob::goodjob:
 
tobiasn said:
ruff, we have a 100% confirmation that the mod can do this.
Click to expand...

101% The command to change orders its only available to web admin (thats me) just need to ask for it. If want you can start a test game of use the "warm up game" already rolling
 
ruff_hi said:
I like this but I would drop the 'and is in a position where he could be perpetually denied resources' part and add 'at its own discretion'.
Click to expand...

The reason for this was that I foresee a scenario where you're at war with several parties, not last, nor first, but at war with someone that plays after you. Then you're in "position to be perpetually denied... etc."

But if you're not first, nor last, but all your adversaries are before you, then it doesn't really make sense to want to shuffle.

But how about this: You do it at your own discretion, but if several parties wants to shuffle in the same turn, the team that is closest to the start of the turn order gets the opportunity to shuffle. That's not too complicated, it doesn't need to be interpreted and, as the cost of shuffling actually is the risk of a double move against you, it's something that I don't foresee getting exploited.

I'm drafting a finalized proposal for this rule. Stand by. :)
 
And here is a draft of a preamble ...
We the undersigned, celebrating the game that is Civ4 and, given the male / female Civ4 ratio is at least 10:1 if not 20:1, have gathered together to play ISDG 2012 in the hope of:
  1. Impressing the few females that we actually find in Civ4
  2. Winning the game
  3. Demonstrating our mastery of Civ4 in all of its aspects
  4. Testing our interpersonal skills via diplomacy
  5. Resisting the urge to rule lawyer everyone to death
  6. Planning to eliminate all other teams and especially savouring the opportunity of causing others to suffer the might of our forces more than once
  7. And, finally, standing victorious on the broken bones and crushed skulls of our opponents
With these aims, we collectively agree to:
  1. Play with honour
  2. Make our mothers proud that they could trust us to 'Be Good'
  3. Offer respect to the other teams and expect the return of same
Further, we also acknowledge that this preamble is not a rule and is merely a representations of our intent and hopes.
Click to expand...

Spoiler My nic is Ruff and I endorse this message :
Please Note: This post is posted while wearing my official 'RB Rule Discussion' hat. The views, opinions and comments expressed in this post represent my views while wearing said hat. I am not authorized to bind RB to any decision, conclusion, concession or agreement that I might endorse while acting in this particular role. I am authorized to push forward the rule discussion.
 
tobiasn said:
I'm drafting a finalized proposal for this rule. Stand by. :)
Click to expand...
Thank you, thank you. Please include something about when the request can be made, where and to whom.

@Magno_uy - can you completely reshuffle the war order?

@tobiasn - if that above question's answer is YES, then maybe the rule should allow multiple changes of order but with the teams closest to the top of the order having higher priority in claiming the last slot.
 
For easy access:

Ruleset proposed by Ruff, approved by CFC and RB (i think):


Rule Set Layout
Preamble
Rule Infringing
In Game Actions (excluding sequential game items)
In Game Actions (sequential game items)
Out of Game Actions
Administration


Preamble
Play fair. Don't double move. Act as grown-ups. Will be filled in by ruff.

We also acknowledge that the preamble is not a rule and is merely a representations of our intent and hopes.



01. Rule Infringing
a. Infringing on the rules is not allowed.

b. When an allegation of rule infringement has been leveled at one or more teams by one or more teams, the game will be paused.

c. Each side of the alleged rule infringement will appoint a spokesperson. 'Prosecutor' for the alleging team or teams, 'Defender' for the alleged rule infringer.

c. Evidence of alleged rule infringement will be collected and forwarded to the Game Admin together with any accompanying explanatory text by the Prosecutor.

d. The Game Admin will forward this information to the Defender and ask for feedback.

e. Upon receiving feedback (or after a reasonable amount of time at the Game Admin's discretion), the Game Admin will rule on the alleged infringement, determine the penalty (if any), the resolution (if any) and those determinations will be acted upon.

f. All rulings under this rule by the Game Admin are final.



02. In Game Actions
a. Suicide Training - Knowingly sacrificing a unit to an ally in order to yield experience points to the victorious unit is not allowed.

b. City Gifting - Conquest, culture flip, UN resolution, and AP resolution are the only permitted methods of city transfer.

c. Unit Gifting, Unlock Building - Gifting a unit with experience that would remove the unit experience restriction for the Heroic Epic is not allowed. Gifting a unit with experience that would remove the unit experience restriction for West Point is not allowed.

d. Not agreed on

e. Bugs and Exploits - The use of any bug or exploit is not allowed. The decision about exactly what constitutes a bug or exploit rests solely with the admin. Consult with the admin if any action you are considering may be a bug or exploit.

f. In-Game Pausing - Any Team may pause the game. Any team encountering a paused game should consult the CFC based turn-tracker thread. If a team has not requested a pause in that thread, the game may be unpaused.

g. Abusing Pauses - No team should abuse the game pause rule.


03. In Game Actions (war edition)

See new proposal


04. Out of Game Actions
a. Team Espionage - All external forms of intelligence gathering against opposing teams are not allowed.
Non-exhaustive list of example: Entering Team Forums, joining multiple teams using different accounts, actively petitioning other players for information, looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads.

b. Game / Pitboss / Save Manipulation or Disruption - Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Intentionally disrupting access to the Pitboss host server is not allowed. Intentionally opening Diplomacy screens and then pausing, intending to lock teams out of playing their turn is not allowed.

c. Pre In-Game Contact - Teams making diplomatic contact before they have met in-game is not allowed. Non-exhaustive list of example: meeting privately to discuss in-game actions, game-related deals, in-game agreements, etc.). Note that teams meeting to discuss rules, ramifications of the impact of votes or rules are allowed.

d. Game Pause Requests - Any team may request a pause by posting in the CFC turn-tracker thread. The purpose of the pause must be included in the pause request.

e. Abusing Pause Requests - No team should abuse the Game Pause Requests rule.




05 - Administration
a. Game Administrator - r_rolo1 has sole authority as game administrator. Replacement of the game administrator must be agreed to by all teams.

b. Victory - The winner of the game is the first team recognized as winner by in-game victory dialog.

c. Defeated Teams - Player on teams that are eliminated are permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players are free to share any information from their old team with their new team. They may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team.

e. Voting - All votes during the game require unanimous agreement by all teams. If teams cannot reach unanimous agreement the decision will be decided by the game administrator.

f. Game Reloads - All game reloads will trigger an automatic game pause (game admin will post such in game pause thread) for a minimum of 24 hours or until each team that logged in to the game after the reload point has stated in the game pause thread that they are ready to continue.
Click to expand...


This is my personal proposal to the part of the rules that are heavily discussed - amalgam of several proposals:

03. In Game Actions (war edition)
a. Civilizations that are at war must observe turn order. Turn order is automatically fixed by the APT Mod on the first turn of war. However, teams must also observe turn order on the turn immediately prior to the first turn of War. So if the Attacker (party Declaring War) played after the Defender (party who war is declared upon) in the turn before the war starts, then the Attacker must let the Defender play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him. If the Attacker wishes to have first to move during the War, he must move first in the turn prior to the beginning of the War. Attackers can always wait until after the Defender moves to login and declare war if they intend to move second in the War, regardless of whether they moved before or after the Defender in the prior turn.

b. Lex mzprox - the right to shuffle
b1. If there are two parties at war and the war has lasted five turns (ie after the declaration turn has ended), the team that is supposed to move first in the next turn has the undeniable right to forfeit his first turn, effectively giving the other party a double move, and grabbing the last turn position.

b2. If there are several parties at war, any war party that
- is not last in the turn order AND
- has been in the same place in the turn order for at least 5 turns
has the right to shuffle as explained in b1.
If several parties wants to shuffle in the same turn, the team that is closest to the start of the turn order gets the opportunity to shuffle.

b3. After a shuffle, there must go at least 5 turns before a new shuffle can be initiated by any party. This is a per-war rule, not a global rule.

c. When other players come into a war in progress, they must be careful to play into the correct half of the turn, so that then the Mod automatically places them on the appropriate side of the turn timer. Also:

c1. You can not leave the game without finishing the turn if you declared a war in that turn. Or at least, you must tell the player you declared war on, not enter the game till you get back and finish your turn.

c2. You can't declare war on a player that's online. You can't stay online just to avoid someone declaring war on you.
rategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.
Click to expand...


This is my personal proposal for 2d:

d. Unit Gifting in wartime - Gifting units for the reason to deny a war opponent the opportunity to kill them, is not allowed. Gifting units to gain a double move on your war opponent is not allowed. A team recieving unit support from another team not currently involved in the same war, can only get such support in their portion of the turn.
Click to expand...
 
Magno_uy said:
by the way.. there's are two important rules to take notice about the mod

1. You can not leave the game without finishing the turn if you had declare a war in that turn. Or at least, you must tell the player you had declare war to, not enter the game till you get back and finish your turn.
2. You can't declare war to a player that's online. And of course you can't stay online just to avoid someone declaring war on you.

this to make sure that the war line is the correct one
Click to expand...

Mod need this 2 extra rules, remember?
 
Lord Parkin said:
What if the player in the second half refuses to double move in order to maintain the resource denial advantage?
Click to expand...
Again calling them A and B for brevity.

  1. Turn order is A, B
  2. B is denying A's resource
  3. A demands a swap of turn orders
  4. Turn order swap
  5. Turn order B, A
  6. (optional step) B does not want to double move, so skips turn (this is their only recourse within the mod, as the mod will end turn automatically)
  7. A takes turn -- absolute turn order is preserved but relative turn order is swapped.

Proposal: A team at war may demand a turn order swap after 3 turns in their current turn order position. (The number 3 is arbitrary, if you want it higher or lower that's easily negotiable)

I will also put this before CFC to see if we can agree on it officially.
 
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