Is the Cultural VC the hardest to achieve?

I agree that Oxford should be used on Radio or Plastics. I also agree on SoH as well -- the wonder did get worse in G&K, by the time you get to Ecology, you're working on your 30th policy anyways, which was the case with Ethiopia.

This time though, I am going to play the CI way and see if its any better. I obviously did this in vanilla, but with the new wonders in G&K, it is harder to streamline a path to a cultural victory now. You have the GMOD, Alhambra, etc. and its nearly impossible to get them all. So the focus for this game will be to get the Great Library, The Oracle (if possible), Petra (if applicable), CI, Sistine, PT, and CR. All other wonders will be considered optional or will be built in non-capital cities in order to get the Reformation bonus (+33% culture in all cities with a World Wonder.)

One thing though I still don't get is when should I start hiring artist specialists in the city? I want to get GAs ASAP, but I don't want to hamper city growth as well!

EDaddy said:

One thing though I still don't get is when should I start hiring artist specialists in the city? I want to get GAs ASAP, but I don't want to hamper city growth as well!

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Your first slot will be cathedral or Amphitheatre so you should have a strongly growing city by then and should have your artist slots full at all times...

ifinnem said:

I am in the middle of a game where I took Persia as a hedge against missing CI.
Didn't get it but was able to get 5 RAs in first 2 waves which helps a lot. Will see how it goes

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Finished at T282 (Immortal)
Finished Freedom around T185, peak cpt 993

Could definitely do better. Persia is great for the GA boost.
Good things about my game
No wars
RAs available that allowed me to get to key techs quickly

Bad things
Missed CI by a few turns
Took long to find last 2 CS (yup both culturals)
Attila took out 1 of only 4 cultural CS v early!
Unable to get a good 2nd culture boosting belief...
Only average dirt

Still feels like Rammy is best but maybe I'll try Pacal

Ugh, I still can't get it below T300 on Immortal. Finished it on T308 (a step up from my other 3 culture vics at 320s). I guess it's an improvement since I've still yet to read any guides yet on optimizing this nor is specializing on Culture my play style.

Missed CI and Oracle. But managed to build the Sydney Opera House due to how ridiculous my science was. Actually, it was so good I researched Globalization some turns before. I'm pretty sure I could've won a diplomatic victory before culture victory, ah well.

Wonders: Pyramids, Terracotta Army, Porcelain Tower, Taj Mahal, Sistine Chapel, Leaning Tower of Pisa, Eiffel Tower, Brandenburg Gate (lolol), that German castle thingy, Cristo, and Sydney Opera House.

I played with Austria this time. They don't really have anything much to benefit culture victories, so perhaps that might be an issue. I only allied one CS since Mombassa was close and hostile, but I could've allied with Manila as well.

I think I play too much a balanced game instead of going for culture specifically. That has been my play style for a while now and still yet to change. My population was huge, and thus my science was great.

Tiles wise it was kinda crappy. No coal, oil, or aluminum. Had barely enough luxuries to trade with. Around 3 spices + 1 silk. Maybe I should've just traded everything away? Also, I had like 3 Holy Sites at that point, is that advisable?

My religion had Tithe (probably not the one for a culture vic eh?), Cathedral, and Pagoda.

Defensive Pact was actually decent this time. I had 3 uber strong allies. Denmark, Ottomans, and Arabia, so had about 3 constant streams of RAs going. Aztec had the audacity to DOW on me in the last couple of turns (right after I finished Patronage as my last policy, coincidence?) He had a reasonable fleet to attack Linz, but I had 2 nukes at that city. Needless to say I did my fair share of mushroom clouds in a culture game. So it was all good fun.

But mostly it was a borefest. But that was kind of necessary. Denmark after he lost the first wave against my forces was coming to me again (after he offered everything he had for peace). But he was displayed "Friendly" so I decided to try my luck. And what do ya know, he accepted my DOF. That was the happiest moment in this game. So I pretty much was friends with him until the end of the game, around 200 turns or so.

Tachii said:

Ugh, I still can't get it below T300 on Immortal. Finished it on T308 (a step up from my other 3 culture vics at 320s). I guess it's an improvement since I've still yet to read any guides yet on optimizing this nor is specializing on Culture my play style.

Missed CI and Oracle. But managed to build the Sydney Opera House due to how ridiculous my science was. Actually, it was so good I researched Globalization some turns before. I'm pretty sure I could've won a diplomatic victory before culture victory, ah well.

Wonders: Pyramids, Terracotta Army, Porcelain Tower, Taj Mahal, Sistine Chapel, Leaning Tower of Pisa, Eiffel Tower, Brandenburg Gate (lolol), that German castle thingy, Cristo, and Sydney Opera House.

I played with Austria this time. They don't really have anything much to benefit culture victories, so perhaps that might be an issue. I only allied one CS since Mombassa was close and hostile, but I could've allied with Manila as well.

I think I play too much a balanced game instead of going for culture specifically. That has been my play style for a while now and still yet to change. My population was huge, and thus my science was great.

Tiles wise it was kinda crappy. No coal, oil, or aluminum. Had barely enough luxuries to trade with. Around 3 spices + 1 silk. Maybe I should've just traded everything away? Also, I had like 3 Holy Sites at that point, is that advisable?

My religion had Tithe (probably not the one for a culture vic eh?), Cathedral, and Pagoda.

Defensive Pact was actually decent this time. I had 3 uber strong allies. Denmark, Ottomans, and Arabia, so had about 3 constant streams of RAs going. Aztec had the audacity to DOW on me in the last couple of turns (right after I finished Patronage as my last policy, coincidence?) He had a reasonable fleet to attack Linz, but I had 2 nukes at that city. Needless to say I did my fair share of mushroom clouds in a culture game. So it was all good fun.

But mostly it was a borefest. But that was kind of necessary. Denmark after he lost the first wave against my forces was coming to me again (after he offered everything he had for peace). But he was displayed "Friendly" so I decided to try my luck. And what do ya know, he accepted my DOF. That was the happiest moment in this game. So I pretty much was friends with him until the end of the game, around 200 turns or so.

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Your cities are humongous, i can hardly get my capital to 25 or above not to mention the other cities, how did that come about? I can see you took cathedral and pagoda, how much faith were you generating per turn? At best i can build one cathedral in my capital, after that i just accumulate for GAs. I think tithe is fine because you're gonna need all the extra gold you can get.

Tachii said:

Ugh, I still can't get it below T300 on Immortal.

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Congratulations on your win! I think few things could reduce number of turns. Austria has coffee houses, and even though they come in quite late (Economics) they can still serve their purpose - generating Artists. However, you need a hill to settle on. Also, settling more Artists in the Capital means Hermitage will provide additional bonus for landmarks. Holy sites do help a little, but there is also world religion, which might give a little more culture per turn considering the amount of G. Prophets you had. Yet, the most important thing is reaching high Culture per turn early by blasting through Freedom policy. If you manage that, you won't have time to unlock Sydney Opera.

Really impressive science rate for a culture game, you are right about unbalancing yourself a bit. Try rushing those culture buildings with cash, even if that means barely surviving.

Yeah, I think it would've been better if I went with World Religion. Those 3 holy sites could've been 12 cities hence 12 cultures + buttload of religious influence to neighboring cities. I had iterant preachers as the enhancer so effectively it spread to every Denmark city around turn 200-230ish. And I was making 400GPT and nearly 1000 bulbs at the end of it, which is ridiculous, even for my standards. I didn't know 4 cities could've pulled such a thing off and without Rationalism either. Crazy, crazy results really.

I also wasted like 8 turns building the seaport in all my coastal cities (that was dumb). Also I kind of forgot about using Artists right after unlocking it. That was another noobish mistake.

I dunno how to rush into Industrial period quickly. I went in with that tech with the Louvre, forgot what turn it was. I had like 3 RAs at that point as well.

My growth surprised me as well. This is actually the first game I started with Tradition. Not really sure what happened. I allied 2 maritime early, maybe that was why. Allied a third some time afterwards. Also near the end I was just buying Hospitals and Medical Labs since there was nothing else to use gold for, I allied all the cultural CS already and nearly every maritime CS, so yeah, huge boost right there.

Tachii said:

Ugh, I still can't get it below T300 on Immortal.

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Yeah I think you are right you are balancing too much and not going pure culture.
Definitely need more CS allies.

What was your SP path?

I'd prob skip those early wonders and focus on getting to Education then Sistine quick

Feel free to post a couple of saves at say T100 and T175 if you want further comments...

I still haven't figured out whether Archi or Pub schools are best industrial beeline tech (Pub schools are closer to PT I think)

EDIT: also I'd use faith to but GAs rather than extra GPs

EDIT: FWIW my T270-T280 wins have come with 3 cities

Just finished my rerun of the latest game on emperor with the traditional strategy Tabarnak engineered. Very odd game - i teched like an animal. Plastics at turn 220, it should have been 219, but i forgot to change the build order to Oxford on time. Hard built CR(turn 239) since the liberty tree still had 5 policies to go. Then a complete and total beeline towards SOH again. Had 5 RAs after plastics, with 6 it would have obviously been even faster and it wasn't completely impossible but AIs will get eventually pissed at each other and you so...total amount of RAs was a lil under 20 i think with 4 waves(PT affected only the last 2 waves). 8 turns b4 RAs would trigger i filled most of the scientist slots.

I also had a big dilemma somewhere at 180, religious tolerance from piety or to unlock the freedom tree, i took RT, i've never been in this spot b4.

Only 10 GAs again, which is quite surprising because at turn 200ish i entered natural GA then compteted Taj Mahal+represtantion+1GA eventually my GA ended cause the last GA wouldn't arrive in time but that was already during the later stages of the UP buildup. Something that i noticed was the fact that my generation was way slower than last time- i could only buy one GA+Pagoda(last game i bought 2GAs) and not even enchance my religion hmm...

Anyway ecology in 261 turns(20 turns faster than previously) with 3 policies yet to go, rushed SOH with a GE from liberty finisher to 4 turns. Peak culture over 1100(from 970 after SOH) this time and UP done at turn 288(10 turns faster than the previous one). Will do one more rerun at turn 219 to see how would i do with the regular wonder building/railroad path(i did tech railroad during the beginning stages of the UP buildup).


EDIT: It took 6-7 turns longer with the conventional approach, i played pretty fast but there is a clear difference in the end result.

My latest attempt on Immortal(France) is headed for another 350 turn finish provided the AI does not win before that. My biggest issue was I got stuck on a continent with a bunch of war mongers. Germans, Japan, Siam, Hiawatha (my only friend). I could not get any RAs, I had to practically self-research all the way to industrial. I think I finally got there at t200 to start taking Freedom policies. That tree is finished now, but I have a whole tree to go (750cpt – no money to rush buy culture buildings).

In order to get good land, I had to expand into the capital radius of both japan and Siam, and was constantly attacked all game long. I should have bitten the bullet and taken Rammy’s cap, but I never did, so naturally he owns most of the city states in the area. I actually should have killed them both, they didn’t draw much land and kept trying to take mine.

T350? Did you at least puppet a couple of cities from the AI to cripple their science and economy? If I'm forced to fight with them I tend to at least win some cities and strike a peace treaty. And France's UUs are pretty good in their respective era so...

I will try a game with Pacal now and see where it goes.

Tachii said:

T350? Did you at least puppet a couple of cities from the AI to cripple their science and economy? If I'm forced to fight with them I tend to at least win some cities and strike a peace treaty. And France's UUs are pretty good in their respective era so...

I will try a game with Pacal now and see where it goes.

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I puppeted 1 city very early. An Japan, Siam and I basically fought over it for the whole game. Siam is a 2cc and japan isnt much bigger right now. maybe 3 or 4 cities.

But early on and since I was so tall, I had some happiness problems because of that puppet. But the biggest issue was no one to do RAs with and not enough cash to buy all the culture builds when they opened up.

edit: victory turn 364. My first immortal win.

I attempted to do a cultural vic on diety/archipelago/standard to avoid early wars. By turn 300 the AI had a diplomatic victory. I did not get any wonders build until the medieval age, had 3 cities and was 2 social policies away from utopia(~25-30turn to vic). I guess it is only possible to achieve with 1 or 2 cities on diety.

The trick to cultural wins on higher difficulties is a good start. Pump out some quick units and puppet the nearest city-states. The AI will just end up turning them against you later on anyway. The goal is 5-7 cities with a total population of over 30 before 0 AD. Keep puppeting if the opportunity arises.

I've tried to play the "Build 2 or 3 city" small empire and rush a cultural win, but it is a losing battle on immortal/deity. You are always at zero gold. No military. Difficult to hold on to city-states. I'm sure it is possible, I just don't like the luck factor in that play-style. I've found a more aggressive approach is more consistent.

On a side-note, I find Civ5 endgame to be more or less the same no matter what victory you are going for. Piety and artists or Rationalism and scientists, all my wins are "sealed" once I start bombarding the enemy coastlines with battleships or camp outside of their cities with long-range artillery.

As for G&K Piety tree, I wouldn't underestimate the potential for faith gain. Just finished a cultural game today, and by turn 400 I probably purchased around 15+ great prophets and artists from faith alone. Ironic, since one could potentially use the Piety tree for a science win with decent results.

I disagree you need to be aggressive on Immortal. Getting to 3 cities with Tradition and some comp bows for defense is more than adequate. Of course you need the right map and AIs to get a good time...

Deity would be a whole other ball o wax!

ifinnem said:

Of course you need the right map and AIs to get a good time...

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Which would fall under "luck factor".

Instead of watching Alexander gobble up half the map, I'd like to be able to do something about it as well

In my experience, playing a small passive start results in a passive mid to late game. Fine when the gamble pays off, but I prefer to have the extra level of control. Sure, it may take me an extra 40 or so turns to finish a cultural win, but it is a guaranteed win.

Well I did a game as Siam using the CI strategy and it does indeed work! I still finished as fast as I did when I was Ethiopia (Turn 367) and actually almost lost that one to Arabia/Maya. I think the mistake I made was going Liberty. Oh well, maybe next time.

P.S. Getting a cultural victory in the early 300s is HARD. Next time, I'm ditching Liberty and going Trad/Piety from the start. The problem was though that I wanted to save Legalism to get a free Wat, so I went Liberty till I had an Amphitheater in my capital.

@Matthew.

I m also rarely aggressive on immortal. And it is not entirely luck. If you prepare early military, train them in killing barbs, thus earning a couple CS alliances you can stay defensive, given you know how to tech properly to be always (well, until Cristo) a bit ahead on immortal, while going for a cultural win. Military CS may throw in few units too. About 7-10 units can control almost any situation in my exp.

Don't fully agree on good starts too. Last two games i had:

#1.Universities ready on t. 120. Finish date: t.287
#2 Universities ready on t. 135. Finish date: t.280

Mid game is really important (imo).

Does anyone use Faith if you aren't playing Haile Selassie (and others like him) on immortal? It is so hard for me to give up archers/libraries/granaries i never get it.

For a cultural victory you do not need to be aggressive. Early wonders greatly reduce the time it takes to win culturally thats why it gets harder on the higher levels. I did not have Temple of Artemis, Hanging Gardens, Chitchen Itza and Alhambra on Diety. The main thing that did it to me was having a third city, it increased my social policy enough that I could not complete them before 300turns. Social policy cost increases 15% per city, so it adds ~30turns to a cultural vic if the city was build before 100turns.

@EDaddy if you can not win by ~300turn you will lose diety. ~350 for immortal. That is why I do not play diety much.

This is going to be a long wall of text. Victory at T313. On Immortal.

I wanted to try out the warmonger path to culture victory utilizing Honor's opener with the Aztecs. After many failures due to experimenting around with SP path and production order, I finally adapted to Aztec's playstyle. And what a ridiculous fun game it was. I find its UA the most useful during early game around T30-100 and late game T200-300 at least for me. Jaguar is very fun to use. In vanilla I always thought it was a lackluster UU, the woodsman promotion +33% forest/jungle bonus is a great addition.

I realized I don't really want to maximize my turn down to T300 for a victory. Just wanted to experiment if this would actually work. There was some super luck in this game I have to say. Excellent start, fairly isolated, and great AI turn out.

The 6 other AI beside Polynesia was constantly fighting with each other. This really only meant I was competing with Polynesia for Wonders. I build a BUTTLOAD of Wonders, I'll just mention some of the unusual Wonders I managed to pull off: Chichen Itza, Alhambra, AND Petra. Holy smokes, I almost laughed in glee with this turn of event. Also for the first time I manage to outtech everybody by having 3 RAs very early while nobody even had Education yet.

Social policies: I fiddled with the Aztecs before to get a taste of what it's like, before finally having the luck of NOT having a Jungle bias start.The 5 trees were: Tradition, Honor, Patronage, Rationalism, and Freedom.

Yes, I completely ignored Piety in this game and wanted to see how late it delayed my victory, in addition to a late warmonger rush.


I started to DOW starting from Polynesia at my south around T230 after I got Plastics. It was almost a joke comparing Modern infantry with muskets. Didn't lose a single unit.

Current diplomatic situation: Was Friends with Ottomans and Japan, who was waging war with each other. Japan quickly denounced me as I declared war on Polynesia. So did America. Japan conquered Russia, while America conquered Sweden. I ended up conquering Polynesia entirely. Ottomans remained a faithful friend, most because he declared war on Polynesia shortly after I did.

Then I went on a long ocean trip after I got battleships and great war bombers and sailed for Japan.

Worked my way up with battleships and conquered his Capital in the second most northern city. What I didn't expect was he actually wanted to give me EVERYTHING for peace. At that point I already have conquered at least 7-8 cities. So then I got another 5 cities while his new capital is now at the bottom south, far away from America. By that point I kind of already won the game, but I DOWed on America anyways, see if I could save a turn or so using the UA.

What an amazing UA it was. In the fight with Japan, I probably got at least 1000 culture. I was getting like 150CPT since the guy was just throwing great war infantries and that 60 ranged land unit against me. And before the fight he had the strongest army too. Quantity can't beat quality, obviously.

So the end result was this:


Ridiculous science, I was actually like 96% done the science tree. Was working on Advanced Ball or something. Also allied just about everybody before I DOWed on America. America quickly wanted peace and gave me a crapload of gold lol. The amazing thing was I still had 2 happiness after I did so much warmongering. Also as you can see growth was even crazier this time with Aztecs. 38 in my capital, I've never pulled this off before, awesome awesome game. It's been a crazy ride.

I also happened to squeeze a religion in, although I screwed up in my second follower choice: Picked Holy Warriors, rofl. The only use I had was pumping out scouts for Military Caste while my other units went to war some 50 turns after. I think I should've picked a happiness modifer. I realized the Pagoda was not as good especially if I lack decent faith, and since I didn't even have the Piety tree I didn't bother with it and just got Cathedrals in my 4 core cities before moving to GAs.

I think religion is quite crucial for me. Cathedral is like +6 culture to a city. That's huge. I didn't really care to spread it as long as I got that in my city. I think it's fine to compromise growth to squeeze that shrine in, and if you have deserts, I would always rush for it to get desert folklore. I had to squeeze one in this game because I had like 5-6 silvers around my starting area.