SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

kossin said:

Keep up the good work, I'm "trying" to watch from the sidelines for now

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While you do so, would you care interpreting the demographic screen at T1?


BTW we are the only creative civ out there. That I can decipher

Interesting discussions. I'm just posting here because I have not taunted you yet and I don't want you to feel left out. Carry on.

soundjata said:

@ Duckweed
Your approach (no chop before TO) is seducing but T60 is not 100% safe.

In which game have seen that we secure a wonder 100% safe?

Aren't you willing to sacrifice a couple of forests if that meant 2 turns earlier Oracle?

If we try to Oracle CS, then yes!

Back to testing

Edit: A couple of warriors (only) at T60, isn't it dangerous?

That's just a test game, some build should change, for instance, the Granary in 2nd city should be a warrior and there's a good chance of having strategic resources in our culture border. The capital only has 1 visible resource and 1 FP, without hidden strategic resources, this capital is bugged.

If we were able to skip AH for some time, that would put less restrain on our tech pace toward Priesthood/sailing/Masonry.

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If you can find a gold/Gem site nearby, then we don't need to settle the sheep city. The test game only shows the worst scenario, actual game could be better.

We are at a critical juncture. A decision needs to be made right now. Do we go Pots or BW first? Once those two techs are in, the path forward is pretty clear. On the info we have now, it's AH followed by PH.

DW is a far better player than me but I do have to disagree with some of the things he says. Five cottages worked today (vs. two) leads to better research tomorrow. The difference goes all the way down the road to the end of the game. Each additional turn working a cottage is more research in the future.

One thing I have not investigated is chopping two forests instead of three. I don't have the time right now but it would be worth looking into.

Abegweit said:

DW is a far better player than me but I do have to disagree with some of the things he says. Five cottages worked today (vs. two) leads to better research tomorrow. The difference goes all the way down the road to the end of the game. Each additional turn working a cottage is more research in the future.

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This is partially true. The cottage eventually become town and there's no different then. The number of earlier turns you work on cottages, the number of commerce you gain, so basically you gain about 6 turns earlier of 2 cottages, hamlets, villages, and towns, from the sheep city, that's 4*12 = 48C through the whole game. Moreover, I also gain ~ a dozen turns from the FP cottage in capital. Each forest is going to worth 30*1.75H when we have CS. There are not only hammers, but also the benefit from earlier completion of certain wonders, for instance TGL, or OU.

Abegweit said:

One thing I have not investigated is chopping two forests instead of three. I don't have the time right now but it would be worth looking into.

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In fact, in the new save I played, I also chop 1 forest to speed up the 2nd worker.

Fine if we are coming to a compromise. At least one forest early game is no luxury and we'll be coomerce constrained en route to Masonry.

Can we get more players to speak up? Shaka / Bebekija hello

Let's start voting on BW vs. Pottery please.

Pottery: 2 votes (Duckweed, Jata)
Bronze: 2 votes (Abegweit, Sossos)

I need 5 votes for one option before I can move on. And frankly, I feel the difference is somewhat marginal.

@ kcd_swede: aren't you supposed to live in a fairly secluded place

Abegweit said:

We are at a critical juncture. A decision needs to be made right now. Do we go Pots or BW first?

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It's a trade-off between less cottages but more muture vs more cottages but less mature.
A fast 2nd city can lead to the earlier 3rd and 4th. Considering the f/h/c output, the 2nd can get returned in 17 turns; the 3rd 25 turns, the 4th 33 turns. (roughly)

If we set a line at T60, the power of the 3rd and the 4th has not been fully revealed for Louis. Therefore, the comparison is between the rate of return between the 2nd city and the cottage.

My estimate on delaying 1 turn of the 2nd city is about 20 f/h/c at turn 60, and 1 turn of cottage is 2~3 commerce. However, BW first can save only 2 turns while Pottery first can save 14 turns for 1 cottage. Therefore, BW first can win by 5~12 f/h/c, at the expense of 1 more tree (20h)

Yes, you can say that 1 tree can be chopped with 10 more hammers after maths. However, because of the compound effect, 10 hammer at turn 100 is just eaqual to 5 hammer at turn 70 and 2.5 hammer at turn 40, if the total outpt doubles every 30 turns.

If we only want to win the Oracle at turn 60, we can skip AH, the investment of 100+beaker can only grant us 1~2 f/h/c each turn compared with cottaging it.

OK, let me wrap up here. Since we cannot benefit from the 3rd city by the T60 deadline, BW first is a bit weaker than pottery first. In the same time, I think we can skip AH. The conclusion is also dependant on the assumption that we may lose the Oracle if we cannot finish by T60.

Pottery 3
BW 1

We're making progress

Very nice explaination Sossos, exactly what I was looking for

Didn't set up internet connection in a new flat yet, and didn't get free time to test anything. That is why I don't have my opinion fully formed. I feel this is very important decision. It seems pottery first is the way to go here. BW first relies on commerce near, and we don't know whether there is any. Pottery first seems like a worst case scenario friendly option here and early granary is very strong. And it saves forests for multipliers, something IND leader will greatly benefit from. Abe's plan is also very good but, since we have a restraint on our REX because we want Oracle, we don't need to chop as much. Yes, it is faster approach short term, but we should look a bit more long termish.

I am for pottery first.

Hey guys.

Sorry for my silence but it seems like the ducks are cursed with technical problems these days... My Civ laptop refuses to power up since Sunday!!
I should be able to have it fixed this week-end, but since then I can't test anything.

So my opinion here is merely based on my previous experience of the game :

I would probably go Pottery first.
Typically in my games I would chop the forests early (i.e for 20H) for 3 reasons :
- To grab/work a critical city spot with an early settler/worker : here, we can see none of those *for now*
- To produce troops when Quechua/Chariot/Axe rushing : irrelevant
- To grab an early wonder, namely the Oracle (or the GLH if I really rush it) : this we will have to do anyway, but not right now, so BW can wait for that sole purpose

Like Shaka said, with all the multipliers + the IND trait, every single forest is worth 45H into a wonder after MC and Maths, rather than 20 now. I think the benefit of grabbing important wonders (HG, TGL, ...) faster later in the game could almost compensate the slower start, even if you apply some kind of snowballing effect.

Other reasons to go BW first would include whipping or finding copper, but we don't have enough food to whip without a granary anyway, and copper is only useful for barb defence, which should not be a problem in this timeframe.


Finally, let's not close any doors here. If the next couple of moves reveal a great spot with gold or gems (or both...), we can always switch back to BW, the beakers won't be lost.

That's my 5 votes and I'm glad we get to move on

Let's talk about Playing plan now. I'd like to play until Pottery.

Research: Pottery = 9 Turns (T9-T18) I think we agreed Fishing first was not necessary
Build: Worker until T15, Then warrior T16&T17 (the 2 hammers will be lost most probably)
Worker actions: T16 partial road 1E of Paris; T17 farm corn.
Warrior exploration: 2SW, 1S, then aim at exploring The south of Paris without being pants down in the desert near a lion. and keeping in mind Paris borders expand in 17 turns (IIRC)
Stop when: AI met or Commerce Resource found or anything unexpected.
Save every turn.

I'd like to play tonight. My time is later than yours. Raise your voice Ducks, put your beak up in the air.
If I don't get enough votes and it is late, I'll have to make a rap

[edited following Shaka's remark below]

@Bebekija

You also forgot forge, and maybe OR. So, yeah, those forests are worth saving.


@soundjata

You're a rapper? Or did you mean ''take a nap''? I am a confused a bit


Regarding your PPP:

Wasn't Fishing first in Pottery approach?

Anything about worker?
T16 one turn in road 1E. T17 farm corn, and that is all.

If you think we will lose 2 in warrior, why don't we invest in barracks? Although I seriously doubt we will have time for them too so warrior is fine.

I'd stop for any commerce.

Yay I forgot worker actions which where described in one of my previous posts. Will edit the PPP and rap obviously. Soundjata is a Keita. Keita = Malinke = griot, which is not very different from a rapper

soundjata said:

T
Build: Worker until T15, Then warrior T16&T17 (the 2 hammers will be lost most probably)

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This warrior will be finished before the 1st settler, there's no loss. Plan looks good.

soundjata said:

Can we get more players to speak up? Shaka / Bebekija hello

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shakabrade is busy at beating BOTM58, mostly likely sossos, maybe Bebekija as well. It only took me less than 10 hours to finished it. I'm wondering that they should also finish it as well given that I'm a slow player.

@Duckweed and all

If we settled Orleans 1S from where you settled it could build/chop GLH with 5 forests. And it wouldn't ruin us that forest you settled on. Also, that'd allow us to place city 1E of Deer which could share Sheep to grow fast and it is not so bad city at all. Especially with GLH.


Edit:
So Duckweed is playing BOTM again. Actually I am not busy beating BOTM58, didn't play it from my first session a week ago. As for my games, I actively play them 5-6 hours if not much warring is involved, or 7-8 if cannons are involved. That means BOTM isn't keeping me busy. RL is making me busy. Been very frustrated and civ deprived lately. Even if I had some time to play civ, I'd rather sacrifice BOTM than SGOTM.

shakabrade said:

@Duckweed and all

If we settled Orleans 1S from where you settled it could build/chop GLH with 5 forests. And it wouldn't ruin us that forest you settled on. Also, that'd allow us to place city 1E of Deer which could share Sheep to grow fast and it is not so bad city at all. Especially with GLH.

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Could be, it could also let the city up 1 turn earlier. My major consideration is

1. I don't like to settler a tundra city just to grab the Deer, it's a really weak resource tile. The sheep city itself does not have too much food plus, no good to share.

2. The tile NE of the sheep could be a strategic resource copper/horse.

Could be, it could also let the city up 1 turn earlier. My major consideration is

1. I don't like to settler a tundra city just to grab the Deer, it's a really weak resource tile. The sheep city itself does not have too much food plus, no good to share.

2. The tile NE of the sheep could be a strategic resource copper/horse.

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I'd share food only until tundra city grows. Tundra tiles can also hold strat resources. 2 Grassland hills tundra city will cover can also hold strat resources. So your number 2 shouldn't bother us.

Regarding point one. Tundra city is there because we'll have GLH and I still think it is not bad with deer and hills and GLH trade routes. It could be ok helper city and with GLH, net gain on commerce. When I meant food sharing, I thought about sharing it until it grows to its happy cap and then give sheep back to Orleans. If tundra city gets granary and maybe even lighthouse beforehand, it could grow really fast. It is not like I am advising tundra city as our third city. I just don't want to kill it.

@soundjata

Nice! Kossin will have to put it on the front page.

shakabrade said:

Edit:
So Duckweed is playing BOTM again. Actually I am not busy beating BOTM58, didn't play it from my first session a week ago. As for my games, I actively play them 5-6 hours if not much warring is involved, or 7-8 if cannons are involved. That means BOTM isn't keeping me busy. RL is making me busy. Been very frustrated and civ deprived lately. Even if I had some time to play civ, I'd rather sacrifice BOTM than SGOTM.

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Because the leader is HC, who tends to lead an extraordinary victory. BTW, cannon war is a suboptimal way in this map.

shakabrade said:

I'd share food only until tundra city grows. Tundra tiles can also hold strat resources. 2 Grassland hills tundra city will cover can also hold strat resources. So your number 2 shouldn't bother us.

Regarding point one. Tundra city is there because we'll have GLH and I still think it is not bad with deer and hills and GLH trade routes. It could be ok helper city and with GLH, net gain on commerce. When I meant food sharing, I thought about sharing it until it grows to its happy cap and then give sheep back to Orleans. If tundra city gets granary and maybe even lighthouse beforehand, it could grow really fast. It is not like I am advising tundra city as our third city. I just don't want to kill it.

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Besides the sheep city, there are already at least 3 better sites in sight, when you have GLH, the island cities have priority, therefore, we won't settle that site in the first 10 cities. Not including the Deer means that we lose a 4F yield tile for quite long time. Of course, if copper/horse is there, then things will change.

Duckweed said:

Besides the sheep city, there are already at least 3 better sites in sight, when you have GLH, the island cities have priority, therefore, we won't settle that site in the first 10 cities. Not including the Deer means that we lose a 4F yield tile for quite long time. Of course, if copper/horse is there, then things will change.

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I agree tundra city isn't our priority but it could be built as 7th or 8th city. I just wouldn't kill it just like that, you need 9T of sharing Sheep from Orleans to grow it to level 5 from level 2 with granary and lighthouse in it (not hard if forests are chopped) and 0 food. It also works otherwise unworkable grassland hills, and not working them is a waste to me. And you save a forest in Orleans so it can chop better. I know I am repeating myself, but it just seems to me tundra city isn't a burden. It is definitely much better than most of the crap cities I spam when in possession of GLH.