SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

sossos · Sep 26, 2012

Yes, let's see where the copper is.

Regarding the defence, personally I still favor warriors. Chriots can be defeated by archers and they cannot get the defensive bonus. Instead, warriors are more cost effective and 2 warriors (30 hammer) can defend 1 spot better than 1 chriot (30 hammer).
The only shortage of warriors are their maintainence cost, but we can sacrifice them or delete them after babs start to build cities. The main purpose of either warriors or chariots after turn 100 is city happiness, isn't it? This means we don't really lose any hammers.

OK, chariots are still better when dealing with AIs. Yet AH costs us 100 beakers and cannot guarantee that the horse resource is at the right position. Are we really gonna research archery if no copper and horse is accessible?

Warriors are good enough, especially at this difficulty level. We don't even need to build all, just queue some.

Duckweed · Sep 26, 2012

I can play tomorrow, any suggestion or at least green lights are welcome.

Where are Abegweit and kossin (how's your internet connection)? :wavey:

Bebekija · Sep 27, 2012

@sossos : I believe the point Duck was making is not about defence, but rather about happiness management : if we don't have an opportunity to bring in more

, then we want warriors + Hereditary rule for MP
=> even if we have Copper readily available, we don't want to connect it because it will prevent us from building warriors => we need another form of barb defence.

@Duckweed : seems good to me, so green light
(just out of curiosity, what tiles will be worked when reaching P4 ?)

soundjata · Sep 27, 2012

No answer on Pyramids? No hapiness before calendar, industrious...
Want to make sure we don't lose an opportunity for a representation powered SE in the mid game.
Gogo Duckweed!

shakabrade · Sep 27, 2012

I am meh on Mids without stone. We have happiness from warrior priests. Our capital will be strong bureau capitol and we want to grow it as much as possible while representation only gets us to size 8. As much as it is paradoxal, I wouldn't consider Mids without more happiness available. We also have means for getting GE in the future safely, so Mids are not necessary.

sossos · Sep 27, 2012

Bebekija said:
@sossos : I believe the point Duck was making is not about defence, but rather about happiness management : if we don't have an opportunity to bring in more , then we want warriors + Hereditary rule for MP
=> even if we have Copper readily available, we don't want to connect it because it will prevent us from building warriors => we need another form of barb defence.

...No different opion upon what free tech we'll choose: if there is no luxary resource, the monachy is the best choice.

My point is to skip AH and defend with warrior only.

@ jata

If there is no stone, I think it will greatly hamper our expansion after building the Pyramid. The happiness can also be solved by Hereditary, I think.

Duckweed · Sep 27, 2012

sossos said:
Yes, let's see where the copper is.

Regarding the defence, personally I still favor warriors. Chriots can be defeated by archers and they cannot get the defensive bonus. Instead, warriors are more cost effective and 2 warriors (30 hammer) can defend 1 spot better than 1 chriot (30 hammer).
The only shortage of warriors are their maintainence cost, but we can sacrifice them or delete them after babs start to build cities. The main purpose of either warriors or chariots after turn 100 is city happiness, isn't it? This means we don't really lose any hammers.

OK, chariots are still better when dealing with AIs. Yet AH costs us 100 beakers and cannot guarantee that the horse resource is at the right position. Are we really gonna research archery if no copper and horse is accessible?

Warriors are good enough, especially at this difficulty level. We don't even need to build all, just queue some.

I agree that warriors are enough for barbarian defense in emperor level. My reasons for researching AH are mainly about yield

1. 2F1C more yield from the sheep tile, otherwise, 2nd city only has 2 FPs to work.
2. potential horse in culture border, that's another6 yield tile
3. If there's no copper nearby, chariot is at least better than warrior, more chance of unlocking HE

Bebekija said:
(just out of curiosity, what tiles will be worked when reaching P4 ?)

The city governor will choose 2F1C and silk tile for the 3rd and 4th pop, when the mine is done, it will automatically switch the 2F1C to the 4H tile when producing settler. I often turn on city governor so that I don't need to worry about working on the newly improved tile.

@soundjata

There are 2 situations that mids is never worth the effort

1. No stone
2. lack of early happiness resources

I had some posts about how to evaluate wonders in SGOTM 13 or 14 (not sure), or you can check this http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=450456

I don't totally despise mids, at least I supported it in SGOTM11 and 14.

sossos · Sep 27, 2012

I agree that warriors are enough for barbarian defense in emperor level. My reasons for researching AH are mainly about yield

1. 2F1C more yield from the sheep tile, otherwise, 2nd city only has 2 FPs to work.
2. potential horse in culture border, that's another6 yield tile
3. If there's no copper nearby, chariot is at least better than warrior, more chance of unlocking HE

2F1C has to be compared with 1~2C by cottaging as a trade-off. The 100 beakers for AH cannot get it returned before T60. Meanwhile, earlier fishing(WB) and monachy by skipping AH can benifit more for TGL. As well, you only need your workers to improve up to 3 tiles in most cases since you would want to whip at size 4 for granary, LH, and finally 2 pop whip of a worker!(----It's quoted from DW's post about SSV)

Potential horse: 50% chance within C1 and C2? If there is copper at C1/C2, the probability of horse might be even lower.

As mentioned before, chariot is not much better than warriors when dealing with Babs who only attack around T50~T60(empEror level). (What is HE?)

shakabrade · Sep 27, 2012

HE is Heroic Epic.

Duckweed · Sep 27, 2012

@sossos

In order to whip granary, sheep city needs to grow to size 4, there's no other good tile to work at size 3. Moreover, even with the sheep, it cannot grow to size 5 till T60. If we aim to oracle Monarchy, then another food tile is more welcome. Moreover, we also need AH for our possible 4th city -- the eastern pig/Fish/Deer site.

If going for AH delays our Oracle date to a dangerous time, I'd prefer to skip it. Otherwise, if it's needed, then the earlier, the better. Since our 2nd city will benefit from it immediately.

HE = Heroic Epic

sossos · Sep 27, 2012

Duckweed said:
@sossos

In order to whip granary, sheep city needs to grow to size 4, there's no other good tile to work at size 3. Moreover, even with the sheep, it cannot grow to size 5 till T60. If we aim to oracle Monarchy, then another food tile is more welcome. Moreover, we also need AH for our possible 4th city -- the eastern pig/Fish/Deer site.

If going for AH delays our Oracle date to a dangerous time, I'd prefer to skip it. Otherwise, if it's needed, then the earlier, the better. Since our 2nd city will benefit from it immediately.

HE = Heroic Epic

Thanks Shaka/DW

My plan is as below for the 2nd city:

1.Cottage the 2 FP and the sheep(depending on whether there's more important task for the workers), and build granary.

2.When the pop reaches 4 and the food tank is 8/28, whip granary. The overflow of production goes to WB.

3.A second whip of lighthouse(5->3) will be kept for TGL.

Either worker or warrior can be inserted if the 2nd city reaches pop 4 earlier or the construction of granary reaches 29. Testing needed.

AH is still needed, but it can be researched after masonary, the last tech for TGL.

Anyway, when can we see the copper? It may also change the decision.

Duckweed · Sep 27, 2012

Done playing

T26 Met Ramesses, another AI that favors OR

Spoiler :

T32 Empire overview. Did not reveal any more tiles due to the wounded warrior. No copper in sight.

Spoiler :

BTW, the good news was that 1 forest grew in capital BFC and one more grew near the eastern fish.

Test game attached. I generated and edited the test map last night so that I could not put Ramesses in the game.

The major issue for next set seems to be which tech to go. Again it's time for you to run some tests and come up with a consensus.

sossos · Sep 27, 2012

chop 1 tree for the settler, build a cottage.

T42: city 2 built.
T48: 2nd worker ready.
T51: capital granary whipped at 8/28.
T52: overflow 15 hammers+20 hammers chopped.
T60: Oracle done.
T66: C2 granary whipped at 8/28
T67: WB ready, C3 built
T69: the 3rd worker ready
T71: AH ready
T72: converted to Hereditary. lighthouse at C2 4/2 whipped
T73: Just find that C2 is built at GH, not PH. The test map is wrong. :cry:

29 more hammers expected.

If the test map is correct, the TGL should be finished by T80.

Duckweed · Sep 28, 2012

sossos said:
T73: Just find that C2 is built at GH, not PH. The test map is wrong. 29 more hammers expected.

If the test map is correct, the TGL should be finished by T80.

If you used the test save I attached, then the 2nd city center is GH, which is what in the real game.

I mentioned a couple times before that soundjata's test game had some major errors.

I also ran a test of skipping AH and achieved Oracle on T58, which was 2 turns earlier than going for AH. That's the major benefit.

On the other hand.

1. The workers do not have time to improve other tiles than the 2 FPs, so that the 3rd citizen has to work on unimproved sheep tile.

2. Skipping AH does not makes GLH much faster and GLH is not that pressing given that most AIs' capital are not coastal. Moreover, without enough coastal cities (3), earlier GLH does not give much benefit.

3. Safety, there are lots of land in the south, I don't feel very safe with warriors only. Our warriors are also a bit tight, we have only 3 around T60, 2 in cities and 1 to fogbust. Warriors are not good at stopping pillage and we do have some precious cottages.

@others

How's your test results? :scan:

kossin · Sep 28, 2012

Duckweed said:
I can play tomorrow, any suggestion or at least green lights are welcome.

Where are Abegweit and kossin (how's your internet connection)?

Very bad

My ISP is having huge problems, and delay is anywhere from 'now' to a 'month'. :cry:

I try to look a bit when I'm not at home, but honestly, I don't get much chance lately.
I'll try to make up when it gets back online.

shakabrade · Sep 28, 2012

My sloppy tests have shown there's no need to build GLH in 2nd city, and that barbs are PITA.
BTW, your test game has a small flaw. There should be PH 2S of Paris.

Now off to some real testing, I hope.

sossos · Sep 28, 2012

Duckweed said:
If you used the test save I attached, then the 2nd city center is GH, which is what in the real game. I mentioned a couple times before that soundjata's test game had some major errors.

If so, we can have one more tree and hill, good news.

I also ran a test of skipping AH and achieved Oracle on T58, which was 2 turns earlier than going for AH. That's the major benefit.

Earlier WB and lighthouse are also the benefit. I think the granary in the 2nd city can also be skipped if we need earlier TGL.

On the other hand.

1. The workers do not have time to improve other tiles than the 2 FPs, so that the 3rd citizen has to work on unimproved sheep tile.

the 3rd citizen can be whipped for WB. 5f2c is a better spot, so the pop loss can be compensated in 13 turns. The 4turns of camping can also be saved.

2. Skipping AH does not makes GLH much faster and GLH is not that pressing given that most AIs' capital are not coastal. Moreover, without enough coastal cities (3), earlier GLH does not give much benefit.

Regarding the 2 routes, yes. However, there is still GPP and culture benefit.

3. Safety, there are lots of land in the south, I don't feel very safe with warriors only. Our warriors are also a bit tight, we have only 3 around T60, 2 in cities and 1 to fogbust. Warriors are not good at stopping pillage and we do have some precious cottages.

I played till 73 turns but no Babs come. I even need to build more warriors for the happy cap. For a creative leader, the cottage is not so easy to be pillaged.@others

How's your test results?

Any test about when the AIs can complete TGL? It may also be important.

Bebekija · Sep 28, 2012

Sorry guys still can't run any tests. My laptop has been checked and I 've ordered a new power unit but I will only get it back on Monday night.

@ Duck:
So finally what's your opinion on AH first? I'm not sure based on your last post. Do you think barb defence is worth taking 2 more turns to build the Oracle?

Duckweed · Sep 28, 2012

shakabrade said:
BTW, your test game has a small flaw. There should be PH 2S of Paris.

Fixed.

kossin said:
Very bad

My ISP is having huge problems, and delay is anywhere from 'now' to a 'month'.

I try to look a bit when I'm not at home, but honestly, I don't get much chance lately.
I'll try to make up when it gets back online.

Which ISP? If it's a month delay, then switching another ISP could be better, you could usually get a better deal then.

Bebekija said:
Sorry guys still can't run any tests. My laptop has been checked and I 've ordered a new power unit but I will only get it back on Monday night.

@ Duck:
So finally what's your opinion on AH first? I'm not sure based on your last post. Do you think barb defence is worth taking 2 more turns to build the Oracle?

T60 Oracle already has over 90% odd in emperor, so 2 turns earlier is not that important. On the other hand, the loss of the yiled from the sheep tile and the potential cost of barbarian damage weigh more in my mind.

I should be able to finish my session in a couple of days, are you ready to carry the torch?

Duckweed · Sep 28, 2012

sossos said:
If so, we can have one more tree and hill, good news.

sossos said:
Earlier WB and lighthouse are also the benefit. I think the granary in the 2nd city can also be skipped if we need earlier TGL.

the 3rd citizen can be whipped for WB. 5f2c is a better spot, so the pop loss can be compensated in 13 turns. The 4turns of camping can also be saved.

In order to get WB earilier, you have to do the 1 pop whip of WB before granary, which is counter-productive.

sossos said:
Regarding the 2 routes, yes. However, there is still GPP and culture benefit.

You might not get GLH earlier or at most a couple of turns in my estimation.

sossos said:
I played till 73 turns but no Babs come. I even need to build more warriors for the happy cap. For a creative leader, the cottage is not so easy to be pillaged.

The test game can't really reflect the actual situation of barbarians, which is more of RNG dependent. Both cities are directly accessible from north and south and there are big area of unoccupied tiles in the south. Even a warrior entering the culture border could cause trouble.

sossos said:
Any test about when the AIs can complete TGL? It may also be important.

If there are a bunch of AIs with coastal capital, then we should aim to complete GLH before 1000~1100 BC to be safe. For this map, it's quite safe even until T85~90. Kossin did some tests about this in our SGOTM11 thread, should be the 1st three pages.

SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

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