ls612's C2C Units

Thunderbrd · Sep 27, 2012

Spearmen usually have lower str than most other contemporary units but having greater ability against Mounted. Its a tossup what's 'better' but the upgrade works along the STR evaluation in this case. And its a change of weapon methodology that makes them take a step down from their anti-mounted specialism. Generically an Atl-Atl would be a better unit UNLESS against a mounted or animal unit.

strategyonly · Sep 27, 2012

Thunderbrd said:
Spearmen usually have lower str than most other contemporary units but having greater ability against Mounted. Its a tossup what's 'better' but the upgrade works along the STR evaluation in this case. And its a change of weapon methodology that makes them take a step down from their anti-mounted specialism. Generically an Atl-Atl would be a better unit UNLESS against a mounted or animal unit.

OK, i can deal with that then, thx.

strategyonly · Sep 29, 2012

I believe we need to re-set the DefaultUnitAI back to Unitai_Attack, they just sit there and sit there, doing nothing, not even attacking anything??

ls612 · Sep 29, 2012

strategyonly said:
I believe we need to re-set the DefaultUnitAI back to Unitai_Attack, they just sit thee and sit there, doing nothing, not even attacking anything??

That looks suspiciously like the AI issue I was seeing with Pillage units in my old game, before all of my civ files vanished in a poof of fuzzy logic. Please post a save with this in the bugs/crashes thread, and Koshling or myself can take a look at it.

intlidave · Oct 1, 2012

Wow, I've been gone for a week and lots of comments went by.

Hydromancerx said:
@intlidave
The main issue I have are things like re-working the polarms line. Especially moving the Heavy Pikeman and adding Halberd. I think much of this also will be covered with the combat mod. And much of the other part is just disagreeing with the Atl-Atl changes. it was specifically ment to be a hybrid unit linking spears, javelins and archery.

Dog Soldier was not an axe but a war club. Which was mainly for bashing in the skulls of their enemies.

We'll see how the combat mod shapes up. But I'd like to note that polearms were the dominant weapon for most of (Western) history (notable exceptions being Roman times and Middle ages, which were dominated respectively by legionaries and knights).

Sorry about the Dog Soldier mistake, but there is room for confusion here. The model's club has a spike on it that makes it look vaguely axe-like and the unit description specifically references Axeman.

Hydromancerx said:
Ambushers were ment as a side branch of the Rogue line. They were specialized in poison. Perhaps we should just have them upgrade into Assassins instead.

Speaking of "criminal" units: What about the Bandit Footpad? Right now this unit upgrades into Musketman, by which time its Strength 6 is laughable. But since it doesn't have the INVISIBLE_CAMOUFLAGE tag, it doesn't really fit in with the other criminal units either.

This brings me to various types of invisibility. Ships have 2: INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE and INVISIBLE_STEALTH. Problem is that they apply to completely different units and... hilarity ensues. Fusion Destroyer and Nuclear Submarine are completely unable to see each other. Is there a way to give a unit an ability to see two types of invisible units?

Thunderbrd · Oct 2, 2012

This brings me to various types of invisibility. Ships have 2: INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE and INVISIBLE_STEALTH. Problem is that they apply to completely different units and... hilarity ensues. Fusion Destroyer and Nuclear Submarine are completely unable to see each other. Is there a way to give a unit an ability to see two types of invisible units?

There's a number of things I'll be doing in the future to help us resolve some of the issues with this. Yes, I think you can set an ability to see multiple types of invisibility but I'm not 100% sure of that at the moment. They DO count for different reasons the unit is invisible though, so its not entirely outside of the current design's intention to have these kinds of interactions (or non-interactions as the case may be) capable of taking place.

ls612 · Oct 2, 2012

Now that Koshling has added AI support for Properties in general, I'd like to make all of the Healer Units have -disease on them, and have a new line of promotions for -disease, and separate from the current First Aid promotions. Disease spreading units I'd like to leave on the backburner now, as Thunderbrd has a whole complicated system for dealing with that, which is heavily integrated into the Combat Mod.

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 2, 2012

ls612 said:
Now that Koshling has added AI support for Properties in general, I'd like to make all of the Healer Units have -disease on them, and have a new line of promotions for -disease, and separate from the current First Aid promotions. Disease spreading units I'd like to leave on the backburner now, as Thunderbrd has a whole complicated system for dealing with that, which is heavily integrated into the Combat Mod.

Very good idea - the current health care units can get lots of XP which they can't use. BTW why don't they get the first aid style promotions?

ls612 · Oct 2, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Very good idea - the current health care units can get lots of XP which they can't use. BTW why don't they get the first aid style promotions?

Um, they should. I'll check that out. BTW HC units now have -disease on the SVN, and their gold cost has been increased.

Edit: The later First Aid promotions require more advanced techs than the earlier ones. That is what is probably the issue.

Koshling · Oct 2, 2012

Chaser doesn't get UNITCOMBAT_RECON yet it appears to be on that line really??

Vokarya · Oct 2, 2012

Koshling said:
Chaser doesn't get UNITCOMBAT_RECON yet it appears to be on that line really??

It's not a Recon-class unit, it's a low-powered Hunter-class that doesn't need Master Hunter to build. It's supposed to upgrade only to Tracker. I designed it to help you out if you can't manage to score a subdued animal for a Master Hunter, since I think hunting is such a significant part of the Prehistoric Era

GiuseppeIII · Oct 2, 2012

I just had an idea for a unit or actually a line of units. Drill Masters. They woukd join yout stack and would help out with different things such as make pursuit better ( running drill master???) pr bonuses vs different units such as sword fighting drill master. The AI probably wouldnt be able to understand these units but when you guys finally make an Great Commander AI you could use it for these units to. Just an idea

Thunderbrd · Oct 3, 2012

ls612 said:
Now that Koshling has added AI support for Properties in general, I'd like to make all of the Healer Units have -disease on them, and have a new line of promotions for -disease, and separate from the current First Aid promotions. Disease spreading units I'd like to leave on the backburner now, as Thunderbrd has a whole complicated system for dealing with that, which is heavily integrated into the Combat Mod.

That would be an appropriate step that would not interfere but rather support the combat mod concepts. I'd figured they would have some -disease generically just as policing units have -crime.

The difference, in theory, between -generic disease property and Aid (which assists the local city and local units (same plot) to resist and overcome diseases (and other afflictions)) is that the -disease would be a matter of adding some preventative care, while Aid would be responsive care. Keep in mind that this is a big difference in health care philosophies between eastern and western cultures where eastern medicinal practices focus a LOT on preventative care while western medicinal practitioners love their patients to be sick and reliant on responsive care. Just some food for thought.

@GiuseppeIII: neat idea but they would have to use the Commander coding structure and would in effect be 'minor commanders' with weaker promo options.

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 3, 2012

Vokarya said:
It's not a Recon-class unit, it's a low-powered Hunter-class that doesn't need Master Hunter to build. It's supposed to upgrade only to Tracker. I designed it to help you out if you can't manage to score a subdued animal for a Master Hunter, since I think hunting is such a significant part of the Prehistoric Era

Is it possible to make the Chaser unit not buildable in cities with a Master Hunter building?

strategyonly · Oct 3, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Is it possible to make the Chaser unit not buildable in cities with a Master Hunter building?

But doesn't the Chaser upgrade to Tracker, which needs the Master Hunter Bldg to be built before you can produce him?

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 3, 2012

strategyonly said:
But doesn't the Chaser upgrade to Tracker, which needs the Master Hunter Bldg to be built before you can produce him?

And once you build 5 Trackers you can build as many Chasers as you like. I assume this was not intended. I made sure that you would not be able to build older hunter units once you got the full number of your current units.

strategyonly · Oct 3, 2012

I am wondering now that "someone" took away the archery % , where is there a unit that can even fight against an archer/Atlatl now in Prehistoric Era?? I see NONE???

Koshling · Oct 3, 2012

Can we lose the AIWeight off units like Ambusher please. It's causing the AI to build ambushers for attack over AtlAtls most of the time.

Nimek · Oct 3, 2012

Since we have new combat mod archers should be

1 easy to kill with faster (mounted) units on open fields when defending without fortifications
2 useless on forests and jungles
3 very deadly when attcking on enemy in open field
4 very useful when defending in cities/fortifications

Giving them bombard ability like in civ 5 (had more reach when standing on hills) is not bad idea
I think that archers outsides the cities/fortifications should be in stack with other units to survive

In reality archers never was the first line of attack in open combat.

strategyonly · Oct 3, 2012

Nimek said:
Since we have new combat mod archers should be

1 easy to kill with faster (mounted) units on open fields when defending without fortifications (well maybe for the 3rd or more ranked team yes, but not for the 1st and 2nd wave)
2 useless on forests and jungles ( actually mine get way better protection when in forest area?)
3 very deadly when attacking on enemy in open field (well they are ranged attacked)
4 very useful when defending in cities/fortifications

Giving them bombard ability like in civ 5 (had more reach when standing on hills) is not bad idea (i think TB was working on the Archery Bombardment) but its still not even close to working correctly).
I think that archers outsides the cities/fortifications should be in stack with other units to survive (Agree)

In reality archers never was the first line of attack in open combat.

I hope not, because again of their "ranged attacked, the longbowsman was the best, but archers aren't that bad either for mowing down tan onslaught.

ls612's C2C Units

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