SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

Bebekija · Oct 14, 2012

I've run the PPP and it looks fine.

As for the research slider issue, I've tried different settings, and came with the following results :

- Following sossos' plan, after Hunting we have 8g in bank and 8 beakers overflow
- Following Duckweed's plan (100% on T67, 70% on T68, then 100% until T70) then we have a choice for the slider on T71:
if 70%, then we end up with 6g in bank and 9 beakers overflow,
if 80%, then we end up with 3g in bank and 14 beakers overflow,
if 90%, then we end up with 0g in bank and 19 beakers overflow.

This would lead to believe that the latter option would lead to the less beakers lost. I have no idea whether keeping a few bucks of treasury would help us later, so I don't if that makes it the best option though.

Other than that, green light from me

shakabrade · Oct 14, 2012

Does research overflow get divided to get normalized just like production does?

Example: we have 60% discount on Writing and then we overflow 20 beakers. Does it get divided by 1.6 prior to applying new prerequisite bonus or do those bonuses stack. If they don't, overflow doesn't mean anything if you don't divide it by bonus. And in that case we only need to try not to lose gold due to rounding down.

Duckweed will probably have some concerns since that is his plan we are pursuing and he knows all the subtle details, but for me it is green light and good luck, sossos.

sossos · Oct 14, 2012

@Bebe & Duck

I just have an idea to turn slider to 50% at T66. At that turn the total commerce is 30, so any slider% brings the same result. After accumulating the treasury to 20g at T67, we can research at 100% for the next 5 turns and there will be no commercial loss at all.

@Shaka

Thank you, but that's an easy game to win. Of course, it's not easy to always win the award each month.
I cannot focus on a game for too long----it just makes me feel that I'm working. Playing 1 hour every day is my favorite way, but it might not be the best way in the competition. You are right that I may forget something. I try to set milestones just like succession games but it may not work every day.

Bebekija · Oct 14, 2012

shakabrade said:
Does research overflow get divided to get normalized just like production does?

Example: we have 60% discount on Writing and then we overflow 20 beakers. Does it get divided by 1.6 prior to applying new prerequisite bonus or do those bonuses stack. If they don't, overflow doesn't mean anything if you don't divide it by bonus. And in that case we only need to try not to lose gold due to rounding down.

Duckweed will probably have some concerns since that is his plan we are pursuing and he knows all the subtle details, but for me it is green light and good luck, sossos.

I'm not sure I understand your point about "normalization", but to make it clearer for you and for everyone, I didn't try to calculate the beakers overflow I give in my post.
Rather, I pressed end turn to see how many *actual* beakers were put into the next tech, which was Writing in my tests, so the prerequisite multiplier is already taken into account.

@sossos : I tried what your proposition, and the result, under the same conditions as in the previous tests, is 5g in bank and 14 beakers overflow, so it may indeed be the most balanced option

sossos · Oct 14, 2012

@Bebe

The "normalization" is to convert the norminal beaker(amplified by AH, Pottery, Priesthood and Stalin) back to standardized beaker. In this case, we need to time it by 0.6 and round up.

Taking your test as an example, your beakers are norminal beakers. If they are normalized, we can see the difference:

Plan A- Following sossos' plan, after Hunting we have 8g in bank and 8 beakers(5b if normalized) overflow

Plan B-
if 70%, then we end up with 6g in bank and 9 beakers(6b if normalized)overflow,
if 80%, then we end up with 3g in bank and 14 beakers(9b if normalized) overflow,
if 90%, then we end up with 0g in bank and 19 beakers(12b if normaized) overflow

Plan C
5g in bank and 14 beakers(9b if normalized) overflow

C is better than A and A is better than B.

kossin · Oct 14, 2012

Since we have no commerce amplifiers, 1g converts to 1 normalized beaker as sossos said.

If we anticipate libraries in the future, then it makes sense to stash as much gold as we can before we get there.

The 5 beakers difference shouldn't make reaching Writing more difficult.

Things look good. Don't have much time to look for alternatives

sossos · Oct 14, 2012

If there is no further input, I'll play it tomorrow night.

The last revision is in red.

T60, add 2 barbarian cities
warrior 2 goes 1SW then to the wine spot.

T61, choose monachy
revolution to hereditary
Worker 1 goes 1W cottage and cancel
Worker 2 goes to horse to connect the horse (1 work turn loss here)

T62 Capitol train warrior, citizens 3/4 moved to cottages
C2, citizen working on fish and sheep
science slider 100% for sailing
worker 1 goes 1NW to cottage the FP

T63, C2 citizens work on fish, sheep and fP

T64, C2 finishes 1 warrior and trains chariot
worker 2 goes to the PH at 1NE of C2
T65, worker 2 chops and mines
In Capitol, citizen 5 is put on 2f1h tile

T66, science slider adjusted to 50%

T67 sailing discovered. start to reseach masonary. slider changed to 100%.
worker 1 goes 1 NW to the GH to chop and mine

In C2, change to build lighthouse
In capitol, move citizen 5/6 to the mines.
T68 100% slider.
whip the lighthouse.
In Paris, the new warrior goes to C2. Start to train settler
T69 In C2, train the chariot

T70 chariot 1 is ready. overflows to TGL.
masonary discovered. hunting next.

T71 In capitol, whip the settler at 34/100
In C2, train the worker
T72 settler ready. hunting discovered

soundjata · Oct 15, 2012

What is your timezone Sossos?
China or US East?

sossos · Oct 15, 2012

soundjata said:
What is your timezone Sossos?
China or US East?

US East. I'm at New Jersey now.

Duckweed · Oct 15, 2012

sossos said:
1. At T60, sailing will be chosen, no other choice. I don't call it micro or include it into the plan because there is no other option, just like the movement of WB.

Well, there's the choice of leaving the tech unchosen and the beaker will be randomly distributed. Moreover, the following seems to me that you ignored it on T60

sossos said:

T62 science slider 100% for sailing

Click to expand...

2. At T66, I've tested that the city governor will choose 3F2C rather than 3H tile. At T67 it will but the worker 2 will finish the chopping, so it will return the citizen to 3f2c tile. BTW, I've been always examining two cities before ending each turn, so my record here is reliable.

That's wierd, in my game the 5th citizen will always on the 3H tile by default since the city is in danger of growing into unhappiness and the FP cottage has not been improved in the beginning. In the mean time, the city governor was not on AUTO so that it would not automatically adjust the tile when the FP cottage was done. There's no harm to put a clear note on this.

3. For the chariot movement, it depends on the real situation. In my test, going to 1E of horse is not the right decision. I'd rather to keep it flexible.

If you want it to be flexible, mention it clearly and tell how you will react in the possible situations. Don't leave it in the city. As I said already, this chariot can get 2xp from the warrior and has better chance to fight the battle south against archer. You can't let it wait until the barbarian warrior arrives in front of it. Unlike the slider issue, I'm serious on this since I care about safety way more than anything else.

4. the 1C commerce loss comes from 0.4B and 0.6g. You cannot double count it. The base commerce of C2 is 11, so you cannot avoid commerce loss by any slider %. If you choose 70%, you have to lose 1C at T67 and 1C at T72.

Even with 100% slider, there are lot of cases that we are going to lose beakers due to the round down calculation. At 70% slider with 20B(20*1.4=28) on the screen, you don't lose the beaker from the round down calculation on bonus part, while at 40% slider with 11B(11*1.4=15.4) on the screen, you do. That's why I said that you'll lose 1g+0.4B. On T71, we can do 50% slider (14B+11G) to finish Hunting and lose nothing compared with 100% slider (28B-3G). It's a very trivial micro advantage and I don't mind that you keep your way.

Please make everything as clear as possible, it's not hard and will save all of us time.

BTW, My internet modem was broken and got fixed today.

sossos · Oct 15, 2012

@Duckweed

If you are talking about calculating the actual amount of beakers generated toward a tech, we have to use another formula

Beakers applied to Technology = FLOOR (FLOOR ((Total Base Beakers + 1) * KCwT modifier) * Prerequisites modifier)

I don't think 20 B has real advantage over 11B with this fomula because we don't know whether Brenus and Ramnese discovered masonary or not. 21*1.04 will lose 0.84b, which is worse than 12*1.04.

sossos · Oct 15, 2012

I've played till T69. There are 2 things different from the test game

1. some AI didn't research sailing, so it costs more beakers than the test game. It does not change the game plan too much.

2. No any barbarian appears as in the test game. Therefore, is it viable to whip the settler at T69 instead of T71?

Spoiler :

Plan

T60, add 2 barbarian cities
warrior 2 goes 1SW then to the wine spot.
choose sailing as the next tech. No change on the slider.

T61, choose monachy
revolution to hereditary
Worker 1 goes 1W cottage and cancel
Worker 2 goes to horse to connect the horse (1 work turn loss here)

T62 Capitol train warrior, citizens 3/4 moved to cottages
C2, citizen working on fish and sheep
science slider 100% for sailing
worker 1 goes 1NW to cottage the FP

T63, C2 citizens work on fish, sheep and fP, AUTO on

T64, C2 finishes 1 warrior and trains chariot
worker 2 goes to the PH at 1NE of C2
T65, worker 2 chops and mines
In Capitol, citizen 5 is put on 2f1h tile

T66, science slider adjusted to 60% (Here the actual game is different from the test game, because 50% cannot finish sailing in 1 turn. It may be caused by the different AI research sequence)

T67 sailing discovered. start to reseach masonary. slider changed to 100%.
worker 1 goes 1 NW to the GH to chop and mine

In C2, change to build lighthouse
In capitol, move citizen 5/6 to the mines.
T68 whip the lighthouse.
In Paris, the new warrior goes to C2. Start to train settler
T69 In C2, train the chariot

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)

Spoiler :

In the test game, the Tech progress is 85/124, but in the real game, it is 91/124. I've posted the game.

Bebekija · Oct 16, 2012

sossos said:
I've played till T69. There are 2 things different from the test game

1. some AI didn't research sailing, so it costs more beakers than the test game. It does not change the game plan too much.

In the test game, the Tech progress is 85/124, but in the real game, it is 91/124. I've posted the game.

Don't these 2 points contradict themselves? Was the test game so much off in terms of research? I don't think it was.

sossos said:
2. No any barbarian appears as in the test game. Therefore, is it viable to whip the settler at T69 instead of T71?

I don't think the situation has changed much. Our assessment that we needed 2 chariots before settling C3 didn't rely on the fact that we'd spot roaming barbarians or not.
Besides, it's less interesting to settle C3 sooner if there is no improved tile available, and if I'm not mistaken, Orleans will be working both its cottages at this time.

shakabrade · Oct 16, 2012

Good job, sossos!

I still lean to faster chariot because, from my experience, barbs retreating like this can come back in stacks or waves. Even 2 stacked warriors can pillage if our chariot gets severely wounded after killing the first one. So it is better to pick them one by one while we can.

kossin · Oct 16, 2012

Well done.

Not seeing any barbs does not mean there are none. For all we know, they could be lying in the shadows and waiting for the settling to come after us.

The city is worth 3F-2C1H/t (taking the cottage means Orleans loses 1F capacity, so it's slightly worse in terms of commerce)... but getting the 2nd chariot out from Paris after the whip is a headache.

Yes, 3F1H > 2C. But it's very likely that the moment the city goes down, barbs start coming.
At that point, -100H has to be considered as a possibility. I'll pass on that risk

sossos · Oct 16, 2012

OK. I'll play on tonight till T72 based on the original plan. Chariot 1 will go 1E of horse.

Questions:
1. I've posted the game. Is it a violation to download again?
2. Who's the next player? Kossin, Shaka or Abe?

@Bebe,

I need to revise the test game tonight. The gold was manually adjusted but I don't know how to adjust the Tech %.

Duckweed · Oct 16, 2012

sossos said:
Questions:
1. I've posted the game. Is it a violation to download again?

You can either continue from the original save in your computer or download it from the server again (unnecessary).

2. Who's the next player? Kossin, Shaka or Abe?

@Bebe,

I need to revise the test game tonight. The gold was manually adjusted but I don't know how to adjust the Tech %.

The only ways I know are guessing and adding the tech to AIs to match the bonus or adding some commerce to the tiles, quite tedious. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to match it.

kossin · Oct 16, 2012

I can't play this week but next week I can.

I suggest someone picks up the save after sossos to play a (short) set and starting Saturday I can pick up the save.

sossos · Oct 16, 2012

Several findings. (Let's think how to exploit these info)
1. Brennus founded both buddism and Judaism, and converted from buddism to Judaism at T71.
2. Egypt is now connected with us
3. Confusianism is founded at T72, impressive.
4. Brennus's research sequence between T60 and T72 is: Bronze working->Farming->Wheel

The chariot goes to 1E of horse, then 1NE, but hasn't found any barbarian yet.

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)

Spoiler :

Questions:
Why does the attitude of Ramesses changes back and forth toward Brennus?

kossin · Oct 16, 2012

^^ Probably because of position on scoreboard.

Looking at save...
EDIT: looking good on schedule!

SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

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Praise Vivec!

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hole in cheese

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Praise Vivec!

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