SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

Long day -_-

Some stats:
C4/C5 founded on t83
Galley completed on t84
Orleans Library completed on t85

The Orleans Chariot was sent north ahead of the settler to secure the area and fogbust some.

The Paris Chariot is sent south to check barbs and scout.

I've loaded a warrior on to the galley... I can send the Chariot instead but I'd feel naked down south hehe.

sossos said:

In my eyes, life is just another game. Is there anything proved immortal in this world?

My daughter and my wife also play civ 4, but it's difficult to interest my father either.

Click to expand...

Exactly. Life is a game (but without reloading).
I'd be a fool not to take an advice from an elderly Chinese, and I mean you sossos.

Besides, you managed to make your daughter and wife play civ4 and that is a remarkable accomplishment in my book. You'll have to share how you managed to do that. Or at least when should I start indoctrinating my daughter (she is almost 6 months now, is she too old?).

kossin said:

Long day -_-

Some stats:
C4/C5 founded on t83
Galley completed on t84
Orleans Library completed on t85

The Orleans Chariot was sent north ahead of the settler to secure the area and fogbust some.

The Paris Chariot is sent south to check barbs and scout.

I've loaded a warrior on to the galley... I can send the Chariot instead but I'd feel naked down south hehe.

Click to expand...

I do have some thoughts.
I think we should have researched Maths. We threw 30 already by not doing this and gained less beakers by waiting for libraries.

Also, was there any overflow from Paris settler whip? I think we can delay Tours (pigs/deer/fish) a few turns to get some overflow. I'd like it goes into Paris' library. It will also enable us to get maths powered chop in Tours (from forest plains hill we are mining).

Isn't it better to delay wine city by one turn and get enough overflow in Orleans to complete library in one turn? By whipping to size 3 we lose 2-3 turns while growing back to size 7 on very good improvements. It also fits with proposed plan of getting next GP there. Lyons will be able to work more cottages this way and can cover part of potential beaker losses if we generate GM there.

Although, I am not fully against generating GS in Lyons. If we don't generate it there, I seriously doubt we'll ever generate GP outside of Paris, Orleans and GP farm. In other words, if we get slower GS in Lyonsm we can get first 3 GP in less time overall. Regarding soundjata's plan for getting GPro from Paris, I don't think we'll ever be in need of building shrine ourselves and I think we'd better use GPro (if we get it), for Golden Age one day.

Duckweed said:

Unless we want OF to something, we should try to avoid producing worker/settler for more 2 turns since it's inefficient to convert foods to hammers that way.

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shakabrade said:

Also, was there any overflow from Paris settler whip? I think we can delay Tours (pigs/deer/fish) a few turns to get some overflow. I'd like it goes into Paris' library. It will also enable us to get maths powered chop in Tours (from forest plains hill we are mining)

Click to expand...

In Paris' case, I agree with Duckweed that it's a poor conversion to hammers. If you still want to see how it compares up, please see my previous saves (which nobody looked at besides myself if I read the # of views correctly). I don't really feel like typing out all the details unless I get some positive feedback on the approach

The library in Orleans is completed from 2 overflows, the first is from the wine settler and the second is the galley. It's a tradeoff to get more things in less time, but some hammers are lost this way.

Getting the first GS in Lyons is a big problem. It means several worker turns, and skipping the granary in favor of chopping the library. If not, then it means that getting the 2nd GP as GS there is wayyy down the line (some 40~50 turns from now).

Sorry I didn't comment earlier, I was busy playing a game just for fun.

I remember you said Lyons needs library in 16T. I am sure I managed to get both granary and library in 13-14T.

What if we work on grassland forests in Paris and whip at size 7. I believe it'd convert better.

I'll test some other approaches. I agree with you that we should explore those islands as quickly as possible (earlier galley). That'll make my turnset much more determined. It depends on those possible islands a lot.

kossin said:

Long day -_-

Some stats:
C4/C5 founded on t83
Galley completed on t84
Orleans Library completed on t85

The Orleans Chariot was sent north ahead of the settler to secure the area and fogbust some.

The Paris Chariot is sent south to check barbs and scout.

I've loaded a warrior on to the galley... I can send the Chariot instead but I'd feel naked down south hehe.

Click to expand...

Sorry I can't look any of your saves as my desktop keeps crashing these days. The data looks good. Have you run test till Math done, which could justify how the worker micro around wine city.

shakabrade said:

Sorry I didn't comment earlier, I was busy playing a game just for fun.

I remember you said Lyons needs library in 16T. I am sure I managed to get both granary and library in 13-14T.

What if we work on grassland forests in Paris and whip at size 7. I believe it'd convert better.

I'll test some other approaches. I agree with you that we should explore those islands as quickly as possible (earlier galley). That'll make my turnset much more determined. It depends on those possible islands a lot.

Click to expand...

There's no problem at all, we all get busy
It's just that I don't want to play my set without the team's fantastic feedback (because, it is).

Growth to 7:
+the cottages are always worked
-delayed city 4, 6 at least 4~5 turns each.
-2x 2F1H is really weak, we're not growing any faster
I don't believe 3~5 turns of 1 cottage justify 8~10 turns of cities.

We certainly can manage to get the Library up in Lyons in time. But as was already said, even if we get a Great Merchant, there are some great uses he can be put to. As a result, I believe it's better to spend worker turns elsewhere than Lyons for now. It has 2 improved tiles (2 cottages) and 1 Oasis for 4->2 whips for a while (workers?).

Duckweed said:

Sorry I can't look any of your saves as my desktop keeps crashing these days. The data looks good. Have you run test till Math done, which could justify how the worker micro around wine city.

Click to expand...

No worries! I can write down the options to make it easier for those unable to open the save. And add some screenshots.
I've tested up to T100 or so a few times. There's 2 ways we can get around to research Math:
1) wait for Library in Orleans (t90, 110 gold)
2) power through it ASAP (~t88, about 50 gold by t90)

The 2 planned forest chops (Lyons, pig+fish+deer) are too early to be affected by either option.
Further chops (Wine city) get the full 30 hammers with either option, they work quite well with the cottage+pig improvements.

So I see no reason to rush Mathematics. I do have to test whether putting minimal slider to finish Writing allows t90 completion though.

Have you tried to whip Library and let OF to galley, so that you can start 100% slider 1 turn earlier. Wine city can be settled on T83, so that it will pop the border on T88 when we can improve the pig. The effect of granary > improved pig since both give 3F and the FP cottage gives 2C more. Therefore it could be better if we could chop the granary before improving the Pig.

BTW, anyone play BOTM59, that's a fun setting.

^^ I'll investigate in a bit.

Duckweed said:

Have you tried to whip Library and let OF to galley, so that you can start 100% slider 1 turn earlier. Wine city can be settled on T83, so that it will pop the border on T88 when we can improve the pig. The effect of granary > improved pig since both give 3F and the FP cottage gives 2C more. Therefore it could be better if we could chop the granary before improving the Pig.

BTW, anyone play BOTM59, that's a fun setting.

Click to expand...

Wine City: chopping the granary first ends up at -2F compared to pasturing the Pig first. Also, the workers are slightly further back.

Orleans: works. It's just swapping the order build of library/galley. Mathematics not affected, but we end up with a bit more gold in our stash (minimum slider to complete Writing).

Pig+Fish+Deer: in this case, chopping the granary > pig pasture. (by 1 whole pop!)

I'll add some details after diner.

T78 overview


IHT
Slider to 20% to complete Writing (Whatever min% to complete it)
Paris -- governor on, auto-food
Orleans -- W1 camp. W2 to 3N1E Paris. governor on, auto-food
Lyons -- take cottage from Orleans. W3 Cottage. governor on, auto-food

T79
Slider to 0%. Start Mathematics
OB with Brennus -- refuse with Ramesses
Paris -- settler
Orleans -- W1 to 1S Orleans. Chariot 3E1N (goes to fogbust north)
Lyons -- nada

T80
Paris -- whip and force 3rd citizen to cottage. Chariot moves south to check for barbs. W2 mines.
Orleans -- whip and force 3rd citizen to cottage. W1 road (this speeds up Wine city 1 turn). Chariot to Deer (or move 1 tile in case of spear?)
Lyons -- W3 to 1W, cottage+cancel

T81 -- PAUSE after Orleans border pop if seafood is revealed.
Paris -- governor on. Resume warrior. Send warrior to Orleans. Send settler to W2 (2 full turns of movement are required, this keeps the settler inside borders)
Orleans -- Galley. Settler to Wine after road completed. governor on
Lyons -- W3 to PH 2W

T82
Paris -- warrior.
Orleans -- Start Library
Lyons -- W3 chop. W1 1S road+cancel

T83
Paris -- nada
Orleans -- whip. force 3rd citizen to cottage
Lyons -- W1 to 1N Oasis
Rheims -- Founded by pig+fish+deer. WB>gran>LH. governor on, auto-food
Tours -- Founded on Wine. granary

T84
Research to 100%
Paris -- settler founds Rheims at fish+pig+deer. Resume warrior
Orleans -- resume galley.
Lyons -- W1 goes W, cottage
Rheims -- nada
Tours -- nada

T85
Paris -- nada
Orleans -- load galley with warrior and move west. Assign 2 scientists, and force cottage. Start wb/warrior/ ??
Lyons -- whip. W3 to W1 and cottage
Rheims -- nada
Tours -- nada

T85 overview


~~~~
coming turns micro
T87
Rheims -- worker to 1W + chop
Tours -- workers to pig

T90
Tours -- workers to forests+chop

T91
Rheims -- whip

Reporting in to let you know I'm still following the thread on a daily basis, even though I don't have any useful input at this point.
No time for testing for me. It might change who knows

I trust you to make the best possible for the next turnset.

Quacking out.

kossin said:

Wine City: chopping the granary first ends up at -2F compared to pasturing the Pig first. Also, the workers are slightly further back.

Click to expand...

I guess there are some commerce on the granary first side, assume 1F=2C, then granary 1st is still better.

What to build in Orleans depends on how can we handle the happiness, WB is usually better. Moreover, I'd like to grow to size 6 as soon as possible than hiring scientists.

Plan looks good. One small thing -- the galley should be on the fish tile.

Also you can send the warrior on wine to scout west a bit when the border of Orleans pops.

Did you move the chariot in Paris, it better follows the galley in case that there are some tough barbarians occupy a desirable island.

Duckweed said:

I guess there are some commerce on the granary first side, assume 1F=2C, then granary 1st is still better.

What to build in Orleans depends on how can we handle the happiness, WB is usually better. Moreover, I'd like to grow to size 6 as soon as possible than hiring scientists.

Plan looks good. One small thing -- the galley should be on the fish tile.

Also you can send the warrior on wine to scout west a bit when the border of Orleans pops.

Did you move the chariot in Paris, it better follows the galley in case that there are some tough barbarians occupy a desirable island.

Click to expand...

Chariot in Paris should protect Lyons and wine city and spawn bust a bit in south, shouldn't it?

Wine city: kossin, did you take food in granary into account? Granary first can make city grow faster if it is observed over longer period.

Pigs/fish/deer: chop da granary

@all
When should we settle that small island we have?
It is a huge boost to our economy. It adds around 6gpt (28 to 34) at 0% research and 12 bpt (58-70) at 100% if built as 6th city. I know we are waiting to explore those could-be islands, but we should at least set some deadline on settling some island.

Edit: In PPP, worker 3 is actually worker 1. Maybe we should rename them. I saw that in past SGOTM from some teams. But I propose letters as names. Worker could be simply A, worker 1 - B, worker 2 - C, and so on. Seems very short and simple.

Edit 2: Would it be better to let Orleans grow on deer at the expense of one scientist and leave galley warrior in Orleans. We can then load warrior from wine city and send warrior from Orleans to wine once anger duration is over.

Duckweed said:

I guess there are some commerce on the granary first side, assume 1F=2C, then granary 1st is still better.
Not quite, here's the turn-by-turn comparison

Code:

Turn	gran    pig first	
89	3F2C	6F	
90	3F2C	7F2C	
91	4F4C	7F2C	
92	4F4C	7F2C	
93	7F2C	7F2C	
94	7F2C	8F4C	pig grows
95	8F4C	8F4C	gran grows
Total	20C	16C+2F

The comparison is 2F vs 4C. 1F = 2C so they are equivalent. Someone once taught me that having some extra food eventually converts to extra food/hammers or commerce due to 1t earlier growth
Either way I don't mind too much.


What to build in Orleans depends on how can we handle the happiness, WB is usually better. Moreover, I'd like to grow to size 6 as soon as possible than hiring scientists.
I agree with growing back to size 6. I exchanged some food+hammers for higher % of GS. Growth takes 3 turns at that point, so that you only need to delay by 1 turn with a worker build.
Otherwise it's OF into warrior, grow to size 6 add 2 GS.


Plan looks good. One small thing -- the galley should be on the fish tile.
Sure. I just moved it randomly.

Also you can send the warrior on wine to scout west a bit when the border of Orleans pops.
I'll look into it. There would still be risks of a barb city even with the border pop for 2~3 turns.

Did you move the chariot in Paris, it better follows the galley in case that there are some tough barbarians occupy a desirable island.
I sent it south to look for barbs. No problem to move west a bit.

Click to expand...

shakabrade said:

Chariot in Paris should protect Lyons and wine city and spawn bust a bit in south, shouldn't it?
That's what I'm aiming to do.

Wine city: kossin, did you take food in granary into account? Granary first can make city grow faster if it is observed over longer period.
Yes, my tests went up to turn 95 to confirm the effect of granary.

Pigs/fish/deer: chop da granary

@all
When should we settle that small island we have?
It is a huge boost to our economy. It adds around 6gpt (28 to 34) at 0% research and 12 bpt (58-70) at 100% if built as 6th city. I know we are waiting to explore those could-be islands, but we should at least set some deadline on settling some island.
It depends imo, if there is seafood on the other side, then it becomes great priority. Otherwise, it's making Orleans much weaker and less of a priority. There are some decent city sites still available on the landmass.

Edit: In PPP, worker 3 is actually worker 1. Maybe we should rename them. I saw that in past SGOTM from some teams. But I propose letters as names. Worker could be simply A, worker 1 - B, worker 2 - C, and so on. Seems very short and simple.
I don't mind, I just gave them random names so that it'd be easier to follow.

Edit 2: Would it be better to let Orleans grow on deer at the expense of one scientist and leave galley warrior in Orleans. We can then load warrior from wine city and send warrior from Orleans to wine once anger duration is over.
There are many ways to go about it for certain. This saves 15H but ties up the Chariot for barb protection. If the barb waves are already done (and we overbuilt protection), then there's no need to keep the Chariot tied up as it's a much better scouting unit. My suggestion is to decide after the border pop in Orleans. If we find seafood on the other side of the small island, then a wb is more important and we OF into a wb.

Click to expand...

Comments.

@soundjata
Thank you for your support!

@kossin

Yes, food will be eventually converted to hammers and commerce through whipping or faster growth, that's why I judged with 1F=2C. One more reason on the FP cottage side is that it's cottage, which gives more long term value, 1 earlier turn of cottage also give 3C more in later stage.

I feel that which way to go also depends on how you feel about the efficiency of worker micro.

Feel free to go when you are ready.

@kossin

I like flexibility in your plan and haven't managed to achieve anything better in my test. Green Light.

@Duckweed
Yea, I pondered about the 1 extra turn of cottage. But I figured 4C+3C (or up to +5C if we consider Printing Press) throughout all game was weaker than those extra turns of food+hammers+commerce.
In terms of worker micro, granary first seems to gain 1 worker turn overall due to possibility to make a road 1W of Tours vs. 1 turn of random cottage/farm.

~~~

I will run the test 1 last time to make sure everything works out correctly. I'm doubtful we'll get more green lights but I think this satisfies most suggestions given anyway

gogo Kossin

I've played until turn 85 as proposed. No surprises during play.

T81 spot a new barb city


T83 I investigate enemy forces.


T84-85 Brennus is attacking us... with missionaries.


Progress on Mathematics


Extra scouting info.


It looks like there will be no more roaming barbarians. I'll upload the save shortly.

Log