SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

Not sure, he isn't an officail worst enemy, but he is at -2 with Hammy, so I'm not sure if hammy will be upset with us.

edit: Saladin wil definitely be upset when we trade with Hammy though, which is why I think we want to get OB with him first.

If we manage OB with all 4, we can DoW Brennus and still only have 2 domestic trade routes (out of 44)

I agree on OB order. As you say, Hammy is WE of Sal, so if we trade with Hammy, Sal will get his undies in a bundle. Not sure if OB by itself will give -diplo. But I thought that no -diplo unless WE, but I learn something new every day.:)
 
We get deer back from Brens when DoW so I thought that was easier than sugar. And sugar is helpful for unhappy dudes in Brens cities when that join us.

Very good point, I forgot who we were trading Deer to.


Trades, revised.
- Trade Ramesses Lit for 120g
- Sell Saladin a tech (I propose CoL, as both Hammy & Qin have it) for all his gold
- Check diplo modifiers with everyone, if anyone is getting negatives for us trading with Sally
- Trade Iron to Saladin for 5gpt (if no-one cares about us trading)
- OB with Saladin regardless of the points above.
- Sell Hammy Currency for Construction and all his gold.
- Trade Hammy clams for his crabs.
- OB with Hammy
- Trade Qin deer, for 4gpt
- OB with Qin
- Sell SB meditation for all his gold
- OB with SB
- Trade SB clams & fish for his cow and rice.


If anyone demands we stop trading, the answer is NO. Only once we have gotr a few neagatives from this should we perhaps rethink it.


edit: why are we not getting Wheat supplied to our cities?? Its improved and roaded!
 
Well delaying the war by 10 turns means we have more time to build our units and co-ordinate our attack. Even though we delay the war by 10 turns, it will result in our war being a lot more efficient.

Those 10 turns we delay will be spent actually productive and we will spend less turns in the war as a result. We will also be more hammer efficient since Trebs are MILES better than Cats and MUCH more likely to survive and will be good upto Rifles even (I assume we will be having at least one war early one; snowball effect blah blah). War will be shorter, so post war recovery will be shorter. Also, if an AI doesn't have as many cites, they are a lot more likely to unit spam, so even if we do take some of his cities now, he will just give us a lot more hell later on. Those cats would've died and we'd need to build more units, ie a waste of hammers cos if they were trebs, a lot of them would have survived.

We are likely to also be more efficient with hammers since we won't be building more than necessary units and will be so fast that we could take multiple cities within a matter of turns; the end result being a lot of our newly captured cities won't even need garrisons initially to defend.


@SH, re commute time, I've taken that into account.

For example, if we build 4 galleons in production (or Zhou or Westfish) and direct trebs and maces/xbows whatever to Bay of Benginal, it will take it 6 turns to get there. We set that mini stack up. (Perhaps another one or two extra depending on any extra cities)/

Get 3 galleons in Paris built and direct some units towards it and send galleons towards Vienne.


3 units 2N2E of Verlamion.

3 units 1N of Durocorturm.

Once all units are in position:

T0:
Declare war, raze Durocorturm with mini stack 6.
Galleon 1 move to 1S of Camulodonum and empty mini stack 1 to 1W of the city.
Galleon 2, 3 and 4 move 1W of the grassland copper and empty mini stack 2 to 1S of the copper.
Move our mini stack 3 1SW towards Verlamion
Galleon 5 and 6 empty mini stack 4 1S1E of Vienne.
Galleon 7 empty mini stack 5 2E of the hill pigs for unknown city.


T1:
Mini stack 1 captures Camulodonum
Mini stack 2 moves 1E
Mini stack 3 captures Verlamion
Mini stack 4 captures Vienne
Mini stack 5 captures unknown city
Mini stack 6 will heal if necessary otherwise it will head towards Tolosa.

T2:
Mini stack 1 move 1E towards Tolosa
Mini stack 2 capture Bibcarte
Mini stack 3 move 2S2W towards the coast to be shipped onto a free galleon.
Mini stack 4 moves west or north to take any other lightly defended cities
Mini stack 5 continues west for more cities or waits until joined by mini stack 4 OR get back on galleon to capture coastal cities.
Mini stack 6 continue towards Tolosa.

T3:
Dependant on our scouting right now :p


Anyway, I hope you get the gist of what I'm thinking.

Summary:
Trebs>>>>Cats
Engineering=more planning time and time to build units
Blitzkrieg means we get all our cities faster giving Brennus less time to react or even bring his SoD.
The above assumes really high efficiency and we can get everything to synergise but in 3 turns, we have taken more than half of Brennus's cities giving him next to no time to retaliate.
Galleons mean that we could also be ready to finish off Rams as soon as we want.

Subject to changes once we discover his stack :lol:

Edit: Test it out in a random game, the AI are completely incompetent when it comes to multiple front wars. :lol:
 
Trebs are a lot better than Cats, I'm not going to argue with that.

But against what? Archers, Axes & Gallic Swordsmen!

If we wait another 10 turns, he might get Longbows or Crossbows!!!
Are you sure that we will get Engineering within 10 turns.

Your plan calls for 7 Galleons :eek: thats 560 hammers! (or 8 Maces) (or MoM & 3 Maces)
 
Oh that's just a rough idea :lol:
Bear in mind it's nearly 4am and I've just finished doing some studying ahaha so not fully in the right mindset :p

I don't think we will need THAT many aha. It was just to express the idea of the efficiency and speed of it :p

Plus, even if he does end up getting longbows, we'll have trebs anyway! Even if he does get them, he will probably get them far too late. I don't actually know how long it will take.


Anyway, Wednesday, I will do a proper calculation for everything, including micro of all cities and movement of the units, etc...
 
Very good point, I forgot who we were trading Deer to.


Trades, revised.
- Trade Ramesses Lit for 120g
- Sell Saladin a tech (I propose CoL, as both Hammy & Qin have it) for all his gold
- Check diplo modifiers with everyone, if anyone is getting negatives for us trading with Sally
- Trade Iron to Saladin for 5gpt (if no-one cares about us trading)
- OB with Saladin regardless of the points above.
- Sell Hammy Currency for Construction and all his gold.
- Trade Hammy clams for his crabs.
- OB with Hammy
- Trade Qin deer, for 4gpt
- OB with Qin
- Sell SB meditation for all his gold
- OB with SB
- Trade SB clams & fish for his cow and rice.
I agree with all but last. As we don't need health, why not wait until SB has some gpt to trade.

edit: why are we not getting Wheat supplied to our cities?? Its improved and roaded!
We are, aren't we. Last item in the city health column.
 
I agree with all but last. As we don't need health, why not wait until SB has some gpt to trade.
OK, we don't need them soon.

We are, aren't we. Last item in the city health column.
Oh yes, move along, nothing to see here
 
@SH, re commute time, I've taken that into account.
Sorry - Meant the 2 turns after the units get off the boat to get to Bibracte for example.

Anyway, I hope you get the gist of what I'm thinking.
Yup - I get the idea - just trying to figure out what it will take to get there.
6 mini stacks of 3 units + Trebs + 7 Galleons? Seems like a lot of hammers. Also need to factor in where Brennus will be with 10 extra turns. And if the Treb is bombarding walls, Brens could be whipping.

Edit: Test it out in a random game, the AI are completely incompetent when it comes to multiple front wars. :lol:
Agreed on this! That's why a getting Brens at war with Rams is important.

It is great to see all the trading opportunities abroad. This makes it all the better to knock off Brens and get our destroy one AI goal now.
 
BTW - doing all the gold trading is one of the techniques I learned from watching the Absolute Deity youtube videos that moved me up at least a 1/2 level. He is constantly getting gold from everyone. Breaking old deals when better ones are available. For those that haven't seen, I highly recommend. Be warned though, lots of whipping, not suitable for young audiences.
 
Yeah. His videos are very good. And he has millions of them!

Also, let's talk a little bit about a switch to wartime civics. I like the idea of waiting to get Feudalism and Theocracy and then doing a massive civic switch while we whip and then revolt to peace time civics after the whip. We do this during the golden age that our next GP sets off. Thoughts?
 
Yeah. His videos are very good. And he has millions of them!

Also, let's talk a little bit about a switch to wartime civics. I like the idea of waiting to get Feudalism and Theocracy and then doing a massive civic switch while we whip and then revolt to peace time civics after the whip. We do this during the golden age that our next GP sets off. Thoughts?

We aren't going to get either of these techs, let alone both, before we whip everything.

I personally think we should start whipping right now.

It is more likely that we get Philo before we wish to swap out of Slavery/OR than getting either Theocracy or Feudalism before we want to whip.
 
Trades, revised again.

Do it in this order:

- Trade Ramesses Lit for 120g
- Sell Saladin a tech (I propose CoL, as both Hammy & Qin have it) for all his gold
- Check diplo modifiers with everyone, if anyone is getting negatives for us trading with Sally
- Trade Pigs to Saladin for gpt (if no-one cares about us trading)
- OB with Saladin regardless of the points above.
- Sell Hammy Currency for Construction and all his gold.
- Trade Hammy clams for gpt
- OB with Hammy
- Trade Qin deer, for gpt
- OB with Qin
- Sell SB meditation for all his gold
- OB with SB
- Trade SB fish for gpt

- Check the resources screen to see if there are more resource trades available for gpt.

edit: take a screenie of the before and after 'finances' screen. F2 I think??


If anyone demands we stop trading, the answer is NO. Only once we have got a few negatives from this should we perhaps rethink it.
 
Trades, revised again.

Do it in this order:

- Trade Ramesses Lit for 120g
- Sell Saladin a tech (I propose CoL, as both Hammy & Qin have it) for all his gold
- Check diplo modifiers with everyone, if anyone is getting negatives for us trading with Sally
- Trade Pigs to Saladin for gpt (if no-one cares about us trading)
- OB with Saladin regardless of the points above.
- Sell Hammy Currency for Construction and all his gold.
- Trade Hammy clams for gpt
- OB with Hammy
- Trade Qin deer, for gpt
- OB with Qin
- Sell SB meditation for all his gold
- OB with SB
- Trade SB fish for gpt

- Check the resources screen to see if there are more resource trades available for gpt.

edit: take a screenie of the before and after 'finances' screen. F2 I think??


If anyone demands we stop trading, the answer is NO. Only once we have got a few negatives from this should we perhaps rethink it.

Green to do this and play one more turn to find out what kind of GP we get.
 
There is a bunch of whipping we could/should do this turn as well. This was just to do the trades.

Most core cities can whip current build with ~30 overflow.
 
There is a bunch of whipping we could/should do this turn as well. This was just to do the trades.

Most core cities can whip current build with ~30 overflow.

Yep! I hadn't done any of the cities this turn yet.

Agree on a mini turn.
 
Mini-Turn

Session Log:

Spoiler :
Turn 144, 680 AD: Paris has grown to size 10.
Turn 144, 680 AD: GP Farm has grown to size 8.
Turn 144, 680 AD: West Coast Silk can hurry Lighthouse for 1⇴ with 21ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 23 turns.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Brennus has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Hammurabi will trade Cow, Crab, Rice
Turn 144, 680 AD: Sitting Bull will trade Cow, Rice
Turn 144, 680 AD: Ramesses II has 120 gold available for trade.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Brennus has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Saladin has 5 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Ramesses II is the worst enemy of Brennus.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Hammurabi is the worst enemy of Saladin.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Brennus is the worst enemy of Ramesses II.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Qin Shi Huang will trade Construction
Turn 144, 680 AD: Ramesses II will trade Construction
Turn 144, 680 AD: Hammurabi will trade Construction
Turn 144, 680 AD: Brennus will trade Construction, Horseback Riding
Turn 144, 680 AD: Qin Shi Huang will trade Cow
Turn 144, 680 AD: Hammurabi will trade Cow, Crab, Rice
Turn 144, 680 AD: Brennus will trade Spices
Turn 144, 680 AD: Sitting Bull will trade Cow, Rice
Turn 144, 680 AD: Will Sign Open Borders: Hammurabi, Qin Shi Huang, Sitting Bull
Turn 144, 680 AD: You have discovered Construction!
Turn 144, 680 AD: Production will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Clams will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 144, 680 AD: West Fish will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Barb City will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Zhou will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Fake Humbaba will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Red Fish Blue F will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 144, 680 AD: You have constructed a Buddhist Temple in GP Farm. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 144, 680 AD: Nicolaus Copernicus (Great Scientist) has been born in GP Farm (Louis XIV)!
Turn 144, 680 AD: Barbarian's Galley (2.00) vs Louis XIV's Caravel 2 (East Fish) (3.30)
Turn 144, 680 AD: Combat Odds: 4.0%
Turn 144, 680 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 144, 680 AD: Louis XIV's Caravel 2 (East Fish) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 144, 680 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 144, 680 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 144, 680 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 144, 680 AD: Louis XIV's Caravel 2 (East Fish) is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 144, 680 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 144, 680 AD: Louis XIV's Caravel 2 (East Fish) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 144, 680 AD: While defending, your Caravel 2 (East Fish) has killed a Barbarian Galley!

Turn 145, 700 AD: Clams has grown to size 9.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Barb City has grown to size 9.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Zhou has grown to size 6.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Fake Humbaba has grown to size 3.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Red Fish Blue F has grown to size 2.
Turn 145, 700 AD: You are the worst enemy of Saladin.


Buffy:

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 144/500 (680 AD) [06-Nov-2012 12:18:59]
Tech traded to Ramesses II (Egypt): Literature
Tech traded to Saladin (Arabia): Code of Laws
Tech traded to Hammurabi (Babylon): Currency
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Construction
Tech traded to Sitting Bull (Native America): Meditation
A Mine was built near Zhou
A Cottage was built near Paris
100% Research: 389 per turn
0% Espionage: 14 per turn
0% Gold: -126 per turn, 228 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Production
The whip was applied in West Fish
The whip was applied in West Coast Silk
Paris finishes: Buddhist Missionary
GP Farm finishes: Buddhist Temple
Nicolaus Copernicus (Great Scientist) born in GP Farm
Production grows to size 8
Production finishes: Crossbowman
Clams grows to size 9
Clams finishes: Crossbowman
West Fish grows to size 4
West Fish finishes: Courthouse
Barb City grows to size 9
Barb City finishes: Barracks
Zhou grows to size 6
Zhou finishes: Moai Statues
Fake Humbaba grows to size 3
West Coast Silk grows to size 3
West Coast Silk finishes: Lighthouse
Red Fish Blue F grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
While defending just off shore near Tianjin, Caravel 2 (East Fish) (2.10/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 96.0%)

Turn 145/500 (700 AD) [06-Nov-2012 12:35:32]
Paris begins: Crossbowman (6 turns)
Production begins: Crossbowman (4 turns)
Clams begins: Spearman (4 turns)
West Fish begins: Lighthouse (12 turns)
Barb City begins: Spearman (3 turns)
Zhou begins: Lighthouse (5 turns)
West Coast Silk begins: Barracks (8 turns)


All the trades went according to play with the exception of me being an idiot and not getting the 30 gold from Hammy in the Currency trade. :(. I'm really sorry. I'll post all the trades as a mash-up in the following spoiler:

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


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Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG


This is where I made the mistake: I misclicked and we did a pure currency for construction instead if currency for construction + gold.

Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG


The jerk found some more gold:

Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG



Before & After:

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG


I think the AI might still have some cities not connected to the trade routes.

Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG



The turn went pretty well. We whipped some stuff - the army is coming along. And I played hide and seek with a barb galley:

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG


We can put the missionary back on if we want. Although I'm inclined to just let him explore mainland for a Chinese city with no religion. Or would it be better to send him straight to Beijing?

The start of the next turn:

We are Sally's worst enemy!

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0023.JPG


We got a great scientist:

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0024.JPG


The cities:

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG


New trade opportunities:

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0026.JPG


So sorry again for that 30-gold misclick, :mad:. It really bugs me since we spend so much effort making sure we get one or two gold here and there and then I go do something that stupid, sigh.
 
All the same questions remain. We can whip pretty fast and pretty hard. I'm sure we can finish civil service this turn if we want to. That will allow us to start on maces next turn.

Have we reached a verdict on Engineering yet? I think overall I'm in the Revent camp. I like engineering for the faster movement and for trebuchets. I'm not a huge fan of catapults and would prefer we spend our hammers on units that won't die. One of the benefits of being this far ahead of Brennus is that we don't have to suicide stuff.

I disagree I think with this whole super naval assault plan though. I think it might be wise to send just ONE stack on boats right at Bibracte and do the rest on foot. The cities are very spread out though, so this war could be slow.

Also, we have to FINISH off an AI. So if we want to make that Brennus we'll have to spend quite some time, or maybe do it over two wars, but that would mean no capitulation. Who would we rather have as a Vassal late game? Brennus or Ramesses?
 
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