A Fantasy Mod Planning/Recruitment

Calavente said:

or... make it so they really need a land-base to shine.... and they stay mediocre with only sea-cities. (and go back to mediocre if they lose all their land-cities)

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orlanth said:

rlaf I'd really like to see a good fantasy total conversion mod get done, but launching another project from scratch at this point runs too much risk of nothing actually getting completed (sadly the case with WHFB for Civ4 as we both know, where lots of effort went into planning but unfortunately due to implementation issues never made it through to a truly complete mod ).

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PawelS is also working on a promising fantasy mod at a late stage of development, though I can't seem to find the thread for it atm. It's discouraging that the completion rate for planned total conversion mods is so low, but each of these looks like it has an excellent chance at success.

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I think part of the issue there was that the WHFB was so big. I mean, we had like 30civs, plus UUs, UBs, etc. (And I'm leaving a ton out, haha.) It was a very ambitious project. Very fulfilling, but a lot of work to be done. I'm thinking we'll keep this current project a little more digest-able, so to speak.

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orlanth said:

It would make things so much faster to develop total conversion mods if there were a tool that allowed you to enter multiple units / buildings etc in an excel-like tabular format, rather than individual XML entries or SQL commands.

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• Mechanic 1: Settlers
  
  Spoiler :

  From here:
  

  PawelS said:

  I decided that before I add anything fantasy to the mod, I'll make the most important change that I always wanted in the game: the new settler rules. I made a similar change to Civ4 in the past (for my private use, I haven't published it), but for Civ5 I can do it in a better way, because of the global happiness. My idea is that settlers should be unbuildable, and you should get them for free when you have enough happiness. The factors that affect happiness will be changed too: you'll get 10 unhappiness per city and 0.5 per citizen, so the number of cities will be a more important factor than in the normal game, and population less important.

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  From a PM:
  

  PawelS said:

  We can make my happiness model optional by making it a separate mod that depends on the main mod. It will change some happiness rules, forbid the production of settlers, and give settlers to players when happiness is high enough.

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  So...if you don't like the happiness model, just don't enable the mod for it. Depending on how it all goes, the happiness model may not be a separate mod in the alpha.
  
  
  
• Mechanic 2: Magic
  Note that Magic will not be in the initial alpha release.
  
  Spoiler :

  
  PMs:
  

  PawelS said:

  Mana will be the Faith yield renamed, and will allow purchasing summons (units purchased with Mana) and city enchantments (buildings purchased with Mana). For now I'm planning only one type of Nodes, which give the Magical Power strategic resource, that is needed to maintain some magical units and buildings. Another strategic resource is Divine Power, which comes mostly from buildings like temples, and is required for religious units (also there will be "Dark Power" for some civs). Adding more types of magical resources is possible later, when we have unit models we can use for various kinds of monsters...

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  Rocklikeafool said:

  Hmm...I like this idea. I assume that spells will still be in separate schools? So, like "Fireball" is something in maybe the FireII promotion or something?

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  PawelS said:

  Different schools of magic is a good idea, perhaps their availability can depend on the technologies you have researched, your civ type, or (like FFH), the types of nodes you control if we introduce more than one type. But, as I wrote above, it's not something we should do in an early version. I think the faith purchasing mechanic is good for summons, but the lack of unit models is a problem here - we need monsters of various kinds.

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  So, we've a few ideas for magic. Basically, it'll be replacing the G&K faith mechanic as "Mana". Summons will be bought with Mana, as will City Enchantments (which will basically be spells represented by a "building").
  
  
  
• Mechanic 3: Resources
  
  
  Spoiler :

  
  Summarized PMs:
  
  Horses - mounted units
  Wood - siege machines, ships
  Elephants -- available only for some civs
  Iron - melee units (and some mounted too, like Knights), Cannons for civs with access to gunpowder
  Mithril - advanced units, like Paladins and Crusaders
  Mana* - mages and monsters
  
  *Remember, Mana is generated in the manner of G&K's Faith resource. And it may also not be in the alpha, as magic definitely won't be in the alpha.
  
  
  
• Mechanic 4: Techs
  
  Spoiler :

  
  This is Part 1 of the Tech Tree:
  http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=330480&d=1346696666
  
  This is Part 2:
  http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=330607&d=1346880006
  
  It's not finished, as the late game techs are not developed. PawelS said he's looking for ideas for those. So...wrack your brains, guys.
  
  
  
• Mechanic 5: Religion/Beliefs
  Probably won't be in alpha.
  
  Spoiler :

  
  PM:
  

  PawelS said:

  I haven't done the beliefs yet, but I think they should represent individual gods, and allow building temples to those gods, which you can't build more than one per city. Some of them can give bonuses depending on local resources, so you have a reason to build them in specific cities. I'm thinking about making all beliefs come from the same pool, so there is no division into Pantheon, Founder, Follower and Enhancer.

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• Mechanic 6: Food per Citizen
  
  Spoiler :

  
  

  PawelS said:

  About food per citizen - recently I changed it to 4, and increased the base yields from terrains - grass gives 3 food, grass hills 1f2p, plains 2f1p, plain hills 3p, forest 1f1p1g, coast 2f1g, ocean 1f1g and so on.

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  The basic idea is that PawelS and I both agreed that you shouldn't have megacities and/or fill the entire map with cities before late game. As part of ensuring that, food per citizen has been increased from the G&K requirements.
  
  
  
• Mechanic 7: Civs that will probably be combined
  Possibly subject to change.
  
  Spoiler :

  
  For comparison purposes...
  Here's my Civ list:
  

  Spoiler :

  
  

  1. Elves -- Sylvan loving, beautiful people. ( )
     Think Elves like in LotR, tree-loving but also with very large and beautiful cities. Very archer focused with special units like Faeries and Treefolk (a la the Migard Scenario in CivII ToT). They are ruled by their benevolent Highlords, the greatest of which is the High King.
  2. Dark Elves -- Elves exiled from the Elven homelands centuries ago. ( )
     Very similar in feel to the Dunmer in the Elder Scrolls series. Very martial with long-lived wizards/warlocks. Their homeland has very many interesting animals/creatures. Ruled by the Dreadlords of the great houses, the greatest of which is the Dreadking.
  3. "The Empire" (name subject to change) -- A Human empire.
     Think a Rome but with a more Fantasy flavor. The well-trained legions of "The Empire" defend its borders a tenacity bordering on the insane. The only bad trait of "The Empire" is its uncompromising nature and imperialistic bent. The empire is somewhat xenophobic, although those of non-human races have been known to acheive positions of influence and valor.
  4. Merfolk -- Water Dwellers ( )
     These sea-dwelling humanoids live in underwater cities. (Note: The Merfolk are the only race who can build cities in the ocean. There is going to be a strict limiting mechanic on this, btw, to prevent the AI from filling the ocean with Merfolk cities.) However, the majority of their cities are on dry land near the oceans, lakes, or large rives. A Merfolk is never at home, unless close to water.
  5. Daemon Worshipers -- ...they worship Daemons. ( )
     This civ is heavily into worshipping the Daemons of the Hell Acropolises (more on this realm later). Somewhat cosmopolitan, they includes members of all races, those of traditionally "good races" are in the minority. As expected of a civ that worships evil entities, the members are all cruel and devious. Many are twisted and distorted by their associations with Daemon powers.
  6. Orcs -- A tribe of orcs, goblins, trolls, and ogres ( )
     The orcs tend to be the most numerous and dominant. (Note: The Orcs civ will not the only "orcs". They are simply one tribe of goblinoids. One of the barbarian factions will be also very goblinoid.) He who is the strongest rules.
  7. Beastmen -- A race of intelligent, furred beasts who walk on all fours. ( )
     Think the "Khajit" from the Elder Scrolls series, except the Beastmen are of more animal forms than just cats. The Beastmen include all sentient animals, though most of their number are over 5 feet tall and weigh more than 200lbs. (91kg).
  8. Northmen -- Humans who live in the cold North ( )
     Think Doviello from FfH but with better armor and weapons. This martial nation of men originate from the Frozen North. A strict, hierarchichal society.
  9. Nation of Logic -- Followers of Logic ( )
     Another cosmopolitan nation, this civ holds logic to be the greatest of virtues. They worship no gods, seeing following the whims of the gods to be illogical. All are welcome, as long as they hold to the dictates of logic.
  10. Dwarves -- Short, angry guys ( )
      Think a combination of the Khazad and the Luchuirp from FfH. Golems and technology is very integral part of their society. However, many Dwarves also prefer the feel of a good axe and the rush of close combat.

  
  And here's PawelS' civ list:
  

  Spoiler :

  
  1. Dreamers (Republic of Dreams)
  
  Human explorers, inventors and pirates. An expansionist civilization with good naval units. They are one of the few civs that have access to gunpowder-based units - Musketeers and Cannons. Their most impressive UU is a flying ship.
  
  2. Griffites (Griffite Kingdom)
  
  A Human nation, resembling a medieval European kingdom. They specialize in mounted units, and get bonus yields from Pastures. They can also train Griffin units (I hope someone will convert this unit from FFH or make a new one).
  
  3. Archons (Holy Archon Empire)
  
  Humans with a Greco-Roman and religious theme (not unlike the Highmen/Archons from the Age of Wonders series). They have good priests and strong Legion units, as well as access to some divine beings, like the Angels (again, hopefully someone will make a model for such unit).
  
  4. Essentes (Enchanted Kingdom of Essentes)
  
  Humans with a strong sense of magic. They have good magical units, and generate more mana (yield) and magical power (strategic resource) than other races.
  
  5. Calx aka Stone People (Dominon of Calx)
  
  Human-like beings, strong at defense. They have access to a special improvement, called Creator Statue, which makes their nearby units stronger. They get bonus yields from Quarries, and are masters of Earth Magic.
  
  6. Vodniks
  
  Fresh water spirits, they get bonuses from rivers, lakes and marshes. -1 food from Plains. Masters of Water Magic.
  
  7. Windwalkers
  
  A fast Human-like race, all foot units get +1 movement. They are good at commerce and Air Magic.
  
  8. Snobar (Snobar Clans)
  
  The name "Snobar" comes from "Snow Barbarians" but they are a civ, not barbarians. Viking-like Humans, they get better yields from Snow and Tundra terrain, but also -1 production from Plains and -1 food from Flood Plains. Good at making amphibious assaults.
  
  9. Nikkei (Empire of Nikkei)
  
  Humans with a far-east theme. They have some "exotic" units and are good at science. Probably will have Japan's UA - damaged units fight as at full strength.
  
  10. Azracs (Azrac Empire)
  
  Humans living in the desert (the name comes from the original Age of Wonders game). They get extra yields from the Desert terrain and can build a special improvement there, but get one less food from Grassland. They have some special units, like Camels and Elephants (Elephants can also be used by Nikkei and Lemuria), and a unique process - Caravans, which gives some gold and some science (and also some culture and mana, if it's possible to make such process in the expansion or with the DLL), which is more effective than the standard processes that give only one yield type.
  
  11. Lemuria (Tribes of Lemuria)
  
  Humans living in the jungle. They have access to many jungle-dwelling creatures as UUs (need models). Also yield and combat bonuses related to Jungle. Good recon units.
  
  12. Elves (Elven Kingdom)
  
  Typical stuff - Bonuses in Forest, good archers, some special magical units. Good culture.
  
  13. Halflings (Halfling Shire)
  
  Good farmers. Units are weaker than other races, but can retreat from combat when losing. Less unhappiness from population (0.3 instead of 0.5), more from number of cities (12 instead of 10).
  
  14. Gnomes (Gnomish Kingdom)
  
  Inventors. They have access to many unique mechanical units, and get extra science from Workshops (it's an improvement that can be built on flatlands and gives production, like in Civ4). Good siege units.
  
  15. Dwarves (Dwarven Kingdom)
  
  As usual - good miners, combat bonus in Hills, melee units good at defense. Some gunpowder and steam units (Cannon, Steam Tank, Ironclad) are available to them.
  
  16. Orcs (Red Horde)
  
  They have the same units as the Barbarians. Can convert Barbarians in camps to their side. A combat oriented civ with an offensive bonus for melee units. Less unhappiness from number of cities (8 instead of 10), more from population (0.6 instead of 0.5).
  
  
  The following civs probably won't be available in early versions of the mod, due to the complicated nature of their planned unique abilities, and/or the need for unit models:
  
  17. Dark Elves
  
  I'm thinking of an "Eternal Night" UA, which decreases the vision range of enemy units in their domain. Among UUs there should be some monstrous animals, like bats, spiders and snakes (so I need models for them).
  
  18. Demon Cultists
  
  Produced units get random mutations as promotions. Access to demonic units. Masters of Fire Magic.
  
  19. Death Cultists
  
  Necromancy - defeated enemies are converted to Undead units under their control. Access to Undead units.
  
  20. Neutrium
  
  Non-magical Humans - they don't get any mana and can't produce magical units and buildings, but they have access to some unique units and buildings, representing their superior culture and science.
  

  
  
  Now, you'll notice a few of Civ ideas are very similar (which was purely coincidental, btw...but works out).
  Here's the Civs that are similar:
  

  • Snobar and Northmen -- Both Northern "barbarian" civs with a high sense of honor.
  • Dreamers and Nation of Logic -- Both very technological.
  • Elves...and Elves -- Should be obvious.
  • Dark Elves and Dark Elves -- Again, obvious.
  • Dwarves and Dwarves -- ...yup.
  • Orcs and Orcs -- Mhmmm.
  • Demon Cultists and Daemon Worshipers -- Both get access to demonic units & use a lot of fire magic. Also some units will get random mutations, a la the Balseraphs in FfH.
  • Archons and The Empire -- Both use legions-style armies. I could see both being very pious as well. Think "the Holy Roman Empire" (now modern day Germany, Austria, and part of modern day France) and how that empire was essentially a somewhat religious empire BUT...with Roman-style legions.

  
  There's a few others civs that either may not be in the mod or may be included later on or combined later on. We'll talk about this more in detail later on. For now, think we'll probably put 12 civs in the alpha.
  
  
  
• Mechanic 8: Civ Terrain Bonuses
  Won't be in alpha.
  
  Spoiler :

  
  As in FfH, certain civs will be getting terrain bonuses.
  
  Civs that will probably be getting bonuses:
  

  • Snobar/Northmen will get bonuses on snow/tundra/ice.
  • Elves will get bonuses on forests.
  • Vodniks will get bonuses on tiles near rivers, lakes, and marshes.
  • Azracs will get bonuses in deserts.
  • Dwarves will get bonuses on hills (may be done through somehow giving them a bonus for mines).
  • Merfolk will get bonuses from oceans & coasts.
  
  
• Mechanic 9: Impassable Terrain
  Won't be in alpha.
  
  Spoiler :

  
  Some civs will be able to move on impassable terrain. For instance, Dwarves and Calx may be able to move onto mountain tiles. Merfolk may be able to move onto certain impassable ocean terrain.
  
  Likewise, certain magic promotions and flying units will be able to cross impassable terrain.
  
  
  
• Mechanic 10: Merfolk Underwater Cities
  Won't be in alpha.
  
  Spoiler :

  
  This mechanic is really my baby.
  Basically, there will be a new ocean terrain type called "Deep Ocean". (Either a seafood resource or "steam vents" [basically the underwater equivalent of hills] or "open ocean" [basically the underwater equivalent of plains] will have a chance to be on Deep Ocean). Merfolk underwater cities will work in the following manner:
  
  To enable growth you need to build an "undersea granary" in the city (10prod to build):
  

  • Needed to enable growth higher than one;
  • To build an undersea granary, you need the presence of other buildings in the empire (a la cathedrals in CivIV) -> 1 undersea granary requires 3 harbors.

  
  The capital has a special version of this mechanic:
  

  • Palace enable growth higher than one. Basically, a palace has the growth property of an undersea granary for free.

  
  This idea comes courtesy of our friend Calavente.
  

Calavente said:

nice

re-reading the civs from PawelS... I have some thoughts (yeh... again !!!)


DWARVES
your dwarves are the like the Dwemer of Elder scrolles : like luirchips+khazad : golem, steampunk and big battle axes on little men-like guys...

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PawelS have 3 "dwarves-like" civs (at least in my view) :

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Calx (strong defense : stone-like guys (which ring for me either "stone golem" or "dwarf") + quarry),

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gnomes (luirchips without the golems but having machine instead)

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dwarves: typical warhammer ones : big greedy battleaxes wielder with some gunpowder.

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how about mixing all those concepts and have new dwarves ?

Spoiler Your ideas :

- magic-dwarves : I like the Calx... but maybe mixed with luirchips golems. (it would be close to the gnomes that Drizzt Do-Urden encounters in the under-dark) something like :
bonus in defense,
str bonus by the special improvement,
+ golems invocation (only near improvement ; improvement can be built in neutral territory ; or anywhere near some "summoner" unit ? but get even more boosted by the improvement than other units ?)
+ bonus from quarry AND mine
(or only from stone-like ressources: marble, stone, granite, gems, amber, ?salt?, jade...etc but not necessarily metal -silver, mithril, gold, copper, iron, adamanthium-),

- techno-dwarves : mix of gnomes and khazad (or khazad and Mechanos):
big battle axes
+ lot of steampunk,
+almost no magic spells
+uses the magic in other ways to powerup the steampunk machines (mana AND gold upkeep instead of only gold (units) or only mana (summons)) and possibly to buy some "runes": promotion that gives a bonus but drain mana gain ;
+ get bonus from workshops AND mines :
or not from MINES but from workshops and FORGES (buildings) and metals.

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• A Calx with always be stronger (even if only slightly) on defense than offense.
• A Dwarf will always be similar to Warhammer Dwarves. Or Warcraft Dwarves.
• A gnome will always be tinkering with gadgets and fielding machines (with gnome drivers) as units.

Vodniks vs meermens.-they are freshwater dweller and meermen and saltwater ones.
-either you "fusion" them
or
-vodnik could become another water-civ that may rival the meermen :
some ideas:
°vodnik get "relatively huge" bonus for lakes and oasis and river tiles
°they get some waterwalking land units (a few, or all units) that cant go into ocean (to give them access to lakes but not challenge mermen)
°at high level/high tier, they get strong units that can go on salt water... and challenge the meermen (or they need scubas...or magic desalinization tools..)
°they cannot build cities on water tiles.
°but their granary UB is an "under-water granary" which allow to grow past size one on top of normal granary effect...
(You don't give their cities this limitation on growth but this enable them to conquer mermen under-water cities)
thus they can't build under-water cities but can take and use the mermen ones (lategame for ocean ones, but early for coastal ones)...

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magzhi said:

About the magic system:

As I understood you are gonna change current faith system with mana system. Then here is my suggestion: religions can be changed to magic schools. Here is how it gonna work:
After getting enough mana points a country can create a school for magician. It is gonna be like a guild which shares its secrets only within cities where that school is dominant. After founding a school, civilization can choose which types of magic, it will teach. eg: fire magic water magic or ice and etc. In this system we will need only 1 type of mana node so magic is determined by a school, not by mana nodes. After a great magician is born (like a great prophet) he/she can extend the school and increase ammount of magic types school knows.

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• Calx -- Earth Magic
• Essentes -- 1-3 random types of magic
• Vodniks -- Water Magic
• Merfolk -- Water Magic
• Windwalkers -- Air Magic
• Elves -- Nature Magic
• Dark Elves -- 1 random type of magic
• Demon Cultists/Daemon Worshipers -- Fire Magic
• Death Cultists -- Death Magic

About graphics:
I am bad at 3d graphics however I can try to learn how to port units from civ4, but no promises on that part

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magzhi said:

or we can offer unique spells to all civs instead of whole magic type.
eg: merfolk could get a spell to temporary flood an area near water which gives a small bonus to units close to the mage, however they would need water magic in their school to create more powerful water spells

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magzhi said:

ok
btw do you have skype for better communications or something like this? it is easier to brainstorm in a chat rather than a forum

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magzhi said:

what about setting up an irc channel?

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magzhi said:

About the magic system:

As I understood you are gonna change current faith system with mana system. Then here is my suggestion: religions can be changed to magic schools. Here is how it gonna work:
After getting enough mana points a country can create a school for magician. It is gonna be like a guild which shares its secrets only within cities where that school is dominant. After founding a school, civilization can choose which types of magic, it will teach. eg: fire magic water magic or ice and etc. In this system we will need only 1 type of mana node so magic is determined by a school, not by mana nodes. After a great magician is born (like a great prophet) he/she can extend the school and increase ammount of magic types school knows.

Click to expand...