I am in agreement with Alpha next. I've been dying for some spying action then swording action.
+1
I think I can take my turn after Shaka
More than fine with me
SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
More than fine with me
soundjata
hole in cheese
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,544
Isn't the idea of teching Alpha linked with stealing BW hence getting some swords in the jungle farming XP?
More than fine with me
My pleasure. I'll need lots of cheers
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Isn't the idea of teching Alpha linked with stealing BW hence getting some swords in the jungle farming XP?
Are you drunk?
We have BW.
Joking aside.
Yes you meant IW. We are about to get into some real war relatively soon and we'll need iron for that given we don't have any copper. If iron is somewhere outside of our territory, we have to claim it. And that also takes time. My guess is that we have iron near Mars. Also, getting some techs from trade would be nice. Especially Monotheism. We are getting to the point delaying Alpha is starting to hurt more than researching it. Jungle swords didn't play any role in my head.
Point is, spy mission itself is not the trigger. We could have performed IW steal any time later.
My pleasure. I'll need lots of cheers
Cheers!
@ducks
Please note that Brennus is researching writing. He may research alphabet next. MC is still my favorite with forge, trirem and the colossus.
Another important thing to me is more scouting for marble. I just played one culture game and one space race game. I think the bottle neck of SGOTM 16 is the culture condition, not the future tech. Sistine is a very important wonder. We'd better build it or fight for it as early as possible. May we check the list of completed wonders and find any clue where the marble is? We can also infer whether the AI will have a great prophet soon for our shrines.
Because of the above thought and if Paris and Orleans are chosen as the two legendary cities, cottaging is not as important as farming in these two cities. They need to focus on building wonders. Then bureaucracy is still useful but not that important. This also gives MC more priority.
Please note that Brennus is researching writing. He may research alphabet next. MC is still my favorite with forge, trirem and the colossus.
Another important thing to me is more scouting for marble. I just played one culture game and one space race game. I think the bottle neck of SGOTM 16 is the culture condition, not the future tech. Sistine is a very important wonder. We'd better build it or fight for it as early as possible. May we check the list of completed wonders and find any clue where the marble is? We can also infer whether the AI will have a great prophet soon for our shrines.
Because of the above thought and if Paris and Orleans are chosen as the two legendary cities, cottaging is not as important as farming in these two cities. They need to focus on building wonders. Then bureaucracy is still useful but not that important. This also gives MC more priority.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
We'll see. I hope we wont have to research it. I think bottleneck of our game is future tech. Not culture. I think corps+kossin's spy approach is way to go. It is more concentrated approach. There is good chance we'll capture sistine anyway.
@sossos
Brennus is 6 turns from IW right, and his tech rate is extremely slow, hence the hope of Ram is much higher than Brennus. MC is at the priority lower than CS. Don't have time to say more now.
@shakabrade
There's no objection to your PPP, ready to play it today and update the test game?
Brennus is 6 turns from IW right, and his tech rate is extremely slow, hence the hope of Ram is much higher than Brennus. MC is at the priority lower than CS. Don't have time to say more now.
@shakabrade
There's no objection to your PPP, ready to play it today and update the test game?
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
I will play in 5-8 hours.
Anyone having anything against it speak now or be silent forever.
BTW, I think 2 more green lights are needed. However, it is been some time PPP is up, suggestions have been implemented and no one, or not enough players are against it.
Anyone having anything against it speak now or be silent forever.
BTW, I think 2 more green lights are needed. However, it is been some time PPP is up, suggestions have been implemented and no one, or not enough players are against it.
imho, we need more information about the map to make good decisions. Our scouting for t100 is pretty abysmal 
Colossus isn't that great given that early Astro is in the cards. That and we won't be working that many coastal tiles (too lazy to run numbers now).
HG as Duckweed said is a trade of hammers for hammers essentially. If we gain 10 pops from it, it's about an even trade without stone. (ignoring Forge+OR also)
UoS is good until SM... which we're likely to get early for Biology.
Similarly for TGL, however, this leads to the free Music GA.
Tech path
Civil Service: allows for irrigation (good for Paris) and Maces. Leads to paper
MC: adds hammers, 1 from gems when we get them. Opens up Machinery path for XBows and Trebuchets.
Aesthetics: opens up TGL+Music for GA.
Basically, is swallowing up our continent better with Engineering or CS first...
Colossus isn't that great given that early Astro is in the cards. That and we won't be working that many coastal tiles (too lazy to run numbers now).
HG as Duckweed said is a trade of hammers for hammers essentially. If we gain 10 pops from it, it's about an even trade without stone. (ignoring Forge+OR also)
UoS is good until SM... which we're likely to get early for Biology.
Similarly for TGL, however, this leads to the free Music GA.
Tech path
Civil Service: allows for irrigation (good for Paris) and Maces. Leads to paper
MC: adds hammers, 1
from gems when we get them. Opens up Machinery path for XBows and Trebuchets.Aesthetics: opens up TGL+Music for GA.
Basically, is swallowing up our continent better with Engineering or CS first...
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
UoS is theoretically good for quite some time. It will never obsolete in our game. However, I probably never built it and don't have experience with it. If I went for it, I'd go for Spiral Minaret and Sistine too (capture them). Can be very useful.
I also rarely build wonders except GLH. Duckweed is wonder hoarder and has more experience than me and I'll trust him.
We could at least do some maths on wonders and return rates.
CS is important because Paris is food poor. Otherwise skipping CS and going to Astronomy bulb helped by TGL would be my first choice.
Also, CS first makes all other techs come faster.
I don't remember tech rate on Emperor since I haven't played on emperor for quite some time. But I think we won't be facing Longbows so Trebs could probably be an overkill. Maces are good against both axes and swords. Also, cats+Maces could be significantly cheaper SoD then trebs+something, trebs don't kill. Engineering is expensive and it'd be nice if vassal researched it.
But take my opinion with pinch of salt. I really didn't play more than 3 emperor games in my life.
Playing deity exclusively is proving to be a handicap here. I really lack perspective on lower levels.
On deity I take what the map lets me while here it is possible to take everything if you play it right. I admit I am kinda lost with all these choices and lack of AI pressure.
I also rarely build wonders except GLH. Duckweed is wonder hoarder and has more experience than me and I'll trust him.
We could at least do some maths on wonders and return rates.
CS is important because Paris is food poor. Otherwise skipping CS and going to Astronomy bulb helped by TGL would be my first choice.
Also, CS first makes all other techs come faster.
I don't remember tech rate on Emperor since I haven't played on emperor for quite some time. But I think we won't be facing Longbows so Trebs could probably be an overkill. Maces are good against both axes and swords. Also, cats+Maces could be significantly cheaper SoD then trebs+something, trebs don't kill. Engineering is expensive and it'd be nice if vassal researched it.
But take my opinion with pinch of salt. I really didn't play more than 3 emperor games in my life.
Playing deity exclusively is proving to be a handicap here. I really lack perspective on lower levels.
On deity I take what the map lets me while here it is possible to take everything if you play it right. I admit I am kinda lost with all these choices and lack of AI pressure.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Turn log:
Screenies:
Not bad!
But I did one mistake. I messed up queue in Lyons and didn't OF into chariot (OF in Library). I'd almost chop chariot now. Or whip Library into Chariot. That makes two mistakes cause I switched to Chariot. But I'd want that chariot sooner than planned anyway (probably kossin too). Our exploration is criminal.
Edit: If you have small screens, you can use ''ctrl''+''-'' to make pictures smaller and more enjoyable.
Edit 2: Forgot to make screenie of northern tip chariot revealed but it was so unimportant. There was nothing and no clue of any island capable of working that fish there.
Spoiler :
Screenies:
Spoiler :
Not bad!
But I did one mistake. I messed up queue in Lyons and didn't OF into chariot (OF in Library). I'd almost chop chariot now. Or whip Library into Chariot. That makes two mistakes cause I switched to Chariot. But I'd want that chariot sooner than planned anyway (probably kossin too). Our exploration is criminal.
Edit: If you have small screens, you can use ''ctrl''+''-'' to make pictures smaller and more enjoyable.
Edit 2: Forgot to make screenie of northern tip chariot revealed but it was so unimportant. There was nothing and no clue of any island capable of working that fish there.
Good to find some more decent city spots
on objective #1 of the gauntlet!
The Lyons chariot can be produced via the Library whip. (it's at 22/90, 2~3 more turns to get the Chariot in 1 turn of OF)
Do we want to whip Tours settler right away or delay 1 turns to OF the workboat?
on objective #1 of the gauntlet!The Lyons chariot can be produced via the Library whip. (it's at 22/90, 2~3 more turns to get the Chariot in 1 turn of OF)
Do we want to whip Tours settler right away or delay 1 turns to OF the workboat?
Well done, shakabrade!
soundjata is UP.
Who is going to volunteer on deck?
How many hammers is short for the WB in Tours? 3rd island is less important than the 1st 2, so it's OK to delay the settler by 1 turn if able to speed up the WB by ~5 turns.
soundjata is UP.
Who is going to volunteer on deck?
How many hammers is short for the WB in Tours? 3rd island is less important than the 1st 2, so it's OK to delay the settler by 1 turn if able to speed up the WB by ~5 turns.
If it's 17/30, then 1 extra turn of settler only speed the WB by 3 turns? since the normal 2 turn settler will contribute 10H already. Each earlier turn of WB gives 2F - 1C for the Fish/FP city, hence 6F-3C - 8H(inefficient conversion of food in Tours) while 1 turn earlier of 3rd island city will give 2F1H + 4C from 4 coastal cities in mainland + some commerce from the city itself? Therefore, whip immediately is clearly better.
@soundjata
You might want to wait for shakabrade to provide the updated test save. Plan to the production of 1st GP in Orleans would be a good stop.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Here's test save.
Good luck, soundjata!
BTW, it is 17/30 in Tours' WB.
EDIT: Test save fixed!
Good luck, soundjata!
BTW, it is 17/30 in Tours' WB.
EDIT: Test save fixed!
While soundjata is preparing his plan, I'll try to raise a couple issues.
1. What to do if the 1st GP is a GM? settle or bulb CS?
2. Orleans can start a settler at size 9 and whip next turn while the galley will arrive as well. Do we want to send it with galley to NW islands with the hope of available site there or settle the North tip of 1 clear fish?
1. What to do if the 1st GP is a GM? settle or bulb CS?
2. Orleans can start a settler at size 9 and whip next turn while the galley will arrive as well. Do we want to send it with galley to NW islands with the hope of available site there or settle the North tip of 1 clear fish?
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
I was for settling but now I am for Bulbing CS.
We we speed our research up + earlier Buro gains commerce and hammers too, we can start growing Paris earlier, we can go to war earlier. Settling is maybe too long term.
We we speed our research up + earlier Buro gains commerce and hammers too, we can start growing Paris earlier, we can go to war earlier. Settling is maybe too long term.
soundjata
hole in cheese
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,544
Sorry guys I don't have so much time on my hands. I am providing a 4 turns test for now. Got a few questions
Key decisions: (I don't think all micro details are needed for now)
Barb island: Avignon is settled in Place T102, while the chariot is safely exploring the NW region of the island.
What is the probability of an archer leaving the island city and threatening Avignon? There are 3 archers currently in the barb city IIRC
Tours: Settler is whipped T102 and sets sail toward the NW islands and the mysteries they behold.
Problem is little overflow hence delaying of fishing boats for Avignon by a few turns. Advantage is earlier settling of NW islands city
Lyons: Library is whipped on T104 at size 4, overflowing on a full chariot next turn.
Paris: work riverside mine starting T102 to complete library and size 6 in 3 turns and start on settler T105.
There could be a smarter micro to grow 1T earlier and give the corn to Marseilles maybe...
Rheims: 2p whips the galley on T103 and gives back the pig to Marseilles.
Marseilles: Didn't do anything in my test but should we not 1 pop whip the granary asap? (T104)
Will be ready to discuss tomorrow evening America time and push the tests further in my evening. Could even play till T105 if consensus is reached.
T105 is a nice stopping point as we can decide to pull the research slider up (alpha in 3 turns provided we are given some nice gold by our fellow Jew)
Key decisions: (I don't think all micro details are needed for now)
Barb island: Avignon is settled in Place T102, while the chariot is safely exploring the NW region of the island.
What is the probability of an archer leaving the island city and threatening Avignon? There are 3 archers currently in the barb city IIRC
Tours: Settler is whipped T102 and sets sail toward the NW islands and the mysteries they behold.
Problem is little overflow hence delaying of fishing boats for Avignon by a few turns. Advantage is earlier settling of NW islands city
Lyons: Library is whipped on T104 at size 4, overflowing on a full chariot next turn.
Paris: work riverside mine starting T102 to complete library and size 6 in 3 turns and start on settler T105.
There could be a smarter micro to grow 1T earlier and give the corn to Marseilles maybe...
Rheims: 2p whips the galley on T103 and gives back the pig to Marseilles.
Marseilles: Didn't do anything in my test but should we not 1 pop whip the granary asap? (T104)
Will be ready to discuss tomorrow evening America time and push the tests further in my evening. Could even play till T105 if consensus is reached.
T105 is a nice stopping point as we can decide to pull the research slider up (alpha in 3 turns provided we are given some nice gold by our fellow Jew)
