SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

ChrisShaffer said:

Didn't we just turn all of those into workshops???

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Yes, I'm just having cold feet. There's still a cottage there, in fact, that we could theoretically work.

ChrisShaffer said:

I prefer 3 pop whipping the forge.

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Of course, I forgot that was a 3 pop whip with zero hammers invested.

ChrisShaffer said:

Shouldn't that be a plantation on the sugar?

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Nothing to see here ...

ChrisShaffer said:

I'm not sure I'd keep Bagacum even if it had a courthouse.

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We'll talk about this later. But it's definitely looking like it might be on the chopping block.

neilmeister said:

I made this trade in my last turnset, I think it was 6 turns ago. You can check in the 'Active' part of the Diplo screens to see when you can cancel it. It was mainly to speed the arrival of the 'shared resources' diplo bonus.

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Ahh, this makes sense. I'll just re-work the deer trade then.

neilmeister said:

We can sell our map to everyone for a pile of gold. If we are careful about the order of doing it, we may be able to sell it again. For instance, Ramesses will give us all of his gold for a map after we get the map from 1 AI from the other hemisphere.

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Oh, good idea. I won't do anything this turn or next turn, as we still have tons of gold. But it will surely be something to consider. Are you saying we should sell Ramesses the map now, and then again when we see the entire continent?

neilmeister said:

As long as we are in OR, we can build missionaries. Agreed that we can pop a few out. Remember we only need 6 of each religion.

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Alright. How long are we going to be in OR instead of Free Religion? And I meant 9 if we decide to go for a culture victory. I think we've ruled out space as be too expensive tech wise. That leaves culture, diplo, and conquest.

Yes, sell Ramesses the map now (for 20 of his 50g).
Once we can get a decent amount from just one of the AI on the other continent(~70-80g) then sell it to them, then try and sell it again to Ramesses.

Once the first AI gets Paper, just sell it-the map- to everyone for whatever you can get.

I think we will get the pigs within 1 or 2 turns of Bibracte coming out of revolt, maybe even immediately, as Vienne's culture only spread to it a few turns ago. Still whip the forge, but if the city isn't starving, wait for some hammers to be invested first. edit: Bibracte gets I think 8 cpt, so it will pop borders 2 turns after coming out of revolt. This will help hugely with the assault on Vienne, because once we get possession of the village 1S of Bibracte, we can move right next to Vienne in 1 turn.

Happy to have 9 of each religion, it keeps our options open, we have 6 Confused already, and obviously lots of Buddhists.
Maybe build a Confused monastery somewhere, maybe whip one in West Fish into the Uni. Then we have a backup and can produce a few more missionaries if needed later on.

Oh, and there is a barb galley hanging around the island to the west of Barb city, near our wounded caravel, so watch out for that.

Worker moves look fine to me.

ChrisShaffer said:

Worker moves look fine to me.

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Not quite, all of the Sugar tiles already have plantations. So no need for Workers 1 & 2 to go there. Maybe farm/cottage the riverside grass jungle instead.

Rather have worker 11 stay in Wheat, Sugar Gems will get the 3 formerly Celtic workers in Camel Town next turn, which I don't see on the plan. edit: This will mean 6 workers for Sugar Gems, which I'm sure is enough.


edit: Worker 10 to chop forest for Clams Uni.
Worker 5 to farm/cottage riverside grass 1W of where he is (1E of Iron)

Just been trawling through the thread, trying to understand when certain diplo bonuses kick in with Hammy & Qin. I don't think we really care about the others

It is t165 now

Open Borders
We did this on t144, so we get +1 on t169 with everyone in the other hemisphere, in 4 turns.

Shared Resources
Qin: Deer on t144, both Sugar & Gems on t160 = 31 resource turns. In 7 turns (t172) we get the +1.
Hammy: Clams on t144, Sheep & Horses on ~t145 = ~61 resource turns. In 13 turns (t178) we get the extra +1.

Shared Civic
Qin: We got the last +1 on t161 or 162. So the next is 8-9 turns away. (t171 or t172)
Hammy: He's still not in Beauro!

Conclusion
Qin will get to +8 on t172 and definitely be Friendly.
Hammy should get to +3 on t169, which hopefully makes him Pleased. Hopefully we can then bribe him into Beauro, so that he becomes Friendly sooner rather than later.

Edit: Therefore, don't try to renegotiate the Deer deal with Qin, renegotiate the Gems deal in 5 turns.

@Neil, may I point you to this link?
I think you'll understand the jargon here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7642274&postcount=12
It seems that sea units actually have no effect on we don't want to start trading away this tech just yet!

MTKP = TKP * TMV/100

In this instance for chemistry, TMV should be 0; no land units and no buildings unlocked so MTKP is also 0 for all AI meaning it SHOULDN'T have a monopoly value...

Thing is, this is for 3.17 so perhaps this may have actually been changed in the latest update?

We may require your skills to read code Neil

Revent said:

@Neil, may I point you to this link?
I think you'll understand the jargon here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7642274&postcount=12
It seems that sea units actually have no effect on we don't want to start trading away this tech just yet!

MTKP = TKP * TMV/100

In this instance for chemistry, TMV should be 0; no land units and no buildings unlocked so MTKP is also 0 for all AI meaning it SHOULDN'T have a monopoly value...

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That's a handy link. Thanks

I will have a look into it. 3.19 is just minor bug fixes and tweaks, 3.17 was the big changes, so this should still be valid.

Neil
1. I'll update the workers for everything.
2. Gotcha on the result re update trade with Qin.
3. I'll update west fish to whip the monastery first.
4. I'll wait and see what happens in Bibracte after the revolt. Hopefully we get the pigs and therefore won't starve.

Revent
1. Interesting post. I'll let Neil decipher it,

EDIT: Oh schnap, we just captured 3 workers. We have so many workers now!

EDIT 2: We're going to want to start chain irrigating to Duroctorum (city south of Clams) since it will need some farms of its own.

OK, I have burrowed into the spaghetti code, trying to decipher it.

Basically, it confirms that the AI will trade almost any tech to us as long as they are Friendly to us, aren't worried about us winning the game, and it doesn't give us a Wonder. edit: Philo allows Angkor Wat, but Qin finishes this next turn, so removes this obstacle.

Therefore:
- Qin WILL trade Philo & Guilds (and almost anything else) at Friendly!!!!!!, and he gets to Friendly in 7 turns. :woot:

The AI will trade Chemistry, even if they aren't friendly, as long as we are above their tech trade threshold(Annoyed for Hammy), and under the WFYABTA limit (10 for Hammy).

Now, I need to try and figure out what techs they prioritise (its a bit random, as the RNG is definitely involved as well)

Pre-Play Plan Turns 165, 166, and 167 Part 3

War Plan

Random Troops up North

The pike and spear that just finished will head down to the front. The chariot about to finish in West Coast Silk will Garrison there.

Navy

Hold positions until we know if/where Brennus has an off-shore city.

Troops at Camel Rodeo

Because of its location I'm inclined to leave no garrison there. Also, our units there are all highly promoted so they'll be better used on the front. They will all head to Bibracte and await further instructions. Brennus does have a galley in Isca, but it's trapped there by our navy, so it can't get out.

Troops at Ski Resort (Tolosa)

The Crossbow will stay for garrison purposes. The Trebs and Spear will go to Bibracte. The Treb on the way will continue south to Bibracte for now.

Troops at Bibracte

I'm going to ignore Doctorumum for now, since the city has nothing in it yet.

I think the next target should be Vienne. The longbow will go 1SE to the plains hill to see what's in Vienne. I doubt it will be a huge number of troops. If that's the case, I say we send the three trebs and the four city raider maces to take it.

The rest of the troops will stay in Bibracte to handle the stack. I'm kind of inclined to let them attack us, since Brennus has NO collateral damaging units. I'll promote the 5exp Mace to Shock (to handle the GWs) and the Pike can take care of the chariots. The chariot should be able to handle the axes. And there's plenty of xbows and other maces there to deal with the stuff.

Obviously the dealing with the stack will be a turn by turn affair and our actions will depend on what he does. But I think what I have planned out is safe enough, and should allow us to get Vienne pretty quickly.

That's pretty much the moves for the first part of the end of this turn. I can move the longbow now to see what's in Vienne which will make this decision easier.

EDIT: The other option is to take everything we have and head west for a rare-but-awesome in the fields battle against Brennus' stack. And then keep going west to take Isca.

Benginal said:

Troops at Camel Rodeo

Because of its location I'm inclined to leave no garrison there.

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He has 4 Chariots, so maybe send the Sugar Gems spear to Camel Town, and leave at least another few units (there are several maces that need to heal anyway).

I'm going to ignore Doctorumum for now, since the city has nothing in it yet.

I can move the longbow now to see what's in Vienne which will make this decision easier.

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Agreed on both counts. Do it. edit: but not the LB, it already has +15% fortify bonus, move a X-bow (but not the CG2 one)

EDIT: The other option is to take everything we have and head west for a rare-but-awesome in the fields battle against Brennus' stack. And then keep going west to take Isca.

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Isca will be brutal, as it is on a hill. Vienne has STONE (Oxford, Notre Dame, even Sankore)

Benigal - great PPP again!

I suggest being a bit more agressive with the whip on some of the Unis to get Oxford sooner. Suggestions below.

Plenty of happiness in Paris, why not 1 pop whip the Uni. Should yield and extra 11bpt (assuming 50% - more at higher slider) instead of waiting the proposd 3 turns. An extra 33 beakers. Working 1 tiles in Paris will not yield more.

Whip Uni at 2 pop in Commerce. It will yield another 8 bpt (50%). More than working any 2 tiles that are not villages or towns.

Clams 2-pop whip Uni at pop 8.

WF - Suggest waiting on Monastery. Will be in OR for a bit longer, can always get later. Finish Uni first, so that we can get on with Oxf!!

Barb City - correct no spies. whip Uni at pop 9.

FH - why not 1 pop whip Lib? It will grow back fast.

Why Lib in WCS? It will never be a big research site. Prefer fail gold to a Lib.

Wheat - working the plains/farm grows one turn earlier, perhaps better than the mine.

RFBF - yes whip until they cant take it any more.

Bibracte - courthouse before forge? see what the maint is, if greater than 10 then CH

Tolossa - Whip granery/CH in the same turn if there are still unhappies after first whip.

Trades
Sugar will be helpful for cities coming out of revolt. I would not trade our last sugar until we get the next one online.

Also want to start thinking about HE. Either production or perhaps Tolossa or Wheat which should be a pretty strong production sites when it is all mined up.

I think whipping Uni's depends on Vienne. There is little point starting Oxford much before we have Stone. A few turns won't matter too much, but +100% is compelling. I agree that we will whip the last Uni's the turn before starting Oxford, but when this depends on Vienne.

Once we get sushi rolling, every city will be a research city. So I support Lib's everywhere, they are also half price as we are Creative. 45 hammers is very cheap.

Our next Sugar come online in 3 turns. Only 2 of our cities have 1 spare happy face, and they grow in 3 & 4 turns respectively, every other city has more spare happy faces. So trading Sugar now costs us nothing at all.

I very much support moving a single unit right now to the PH so we can see what is in Vienne. As Benginal said, this will make a lot of decisions easier. War & Uni's

edit: @Bibracte, agreed regarding CH if maintenance high, but only if the city is not starving. Forge is a 3 pop whip without hammers invested, CH is 4.

SteelHorse said:

Also want to start thinking about HE. Either production or perhaps Tolossa or Wheat which should be a pretty strong production sites when it is all mined up.

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My vote for HE would go to a coastal town (HE counts towards naval doesn't it?) as a fair proportion of the units we build going forward will probably be naval.

So, Production or Zhou for mine.

Will the Ironworks & West Point be a potential factors? as Zhou already has 1 NW, Production has 0.

HE & West Point (if we ever build it) in Production.
Maoi & Ironworks in Zhou?

Haha, Neil is impatient.

A green from neil to move an xbow onto the hill. I need some more greens.

Benginal said:

Haha, Neil is impatient.

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Always...

Continuing the tech discussion....

The code for what tech the AI chooses is in the main dll, and is not modable (or viewable for that matter).

We know that the AI does favour techs that give it units, and wonders. This article on Civ3 is a good indicator.

Another major factor is the cost of the tech.

This is what Qin could have researched when he chose Guilds:
-Guilds (1560), Knight, Grocer and workshop +1h
-Theology (780), AP, Hagia Sophia
-Paper(936), Uni Sankore, map trading
-Engineering(1560), Pikes, Trebs, Castle & Notre Dame
-Optics(936), Caravel, whaling boats, sight +1
-Music(936), Cathedral, Sistines already built
-Nationalism(2808), Hermitage & Taj Mahal, nationhood

Hammy had almost the same options when he chose Engineering.

So, what do I conclude..... nothing really.
They both chose expensive techs that gave them land units. No real surprises there.

Future Trades: QIN
Now, we obviously want Philo(1248) from Qin, so I expect he will take Engineering (1560). It will take him 11 turns to finish Guilds, and he will definitely be Friendly and willing to trade in 8 turns, so I think we can almost bank on a Philo for Engineering trade happening by then.

He should be willing to trade Guilds (1560), so I expect he will take Gunpowder (1872).

The big question is: what will he research next? Chemistry(2808) will be available to him, but it costs the same as Nationalism and does not give any units without Astro. Banking (1092) is also now available.
I think he will go for Banking or Nationalism. Banking would be ideal for us.

Future Trades: HAMMY
This is still a big question mark, as once he finishes Engineering, he can choose from: Paper, Theo, Astro, Guilds & Philo. None of these really help us, but Paper would be bad. edit: we could/should gift him Guilds when we get it, to give us an extra chance of someone going for Banking.

deleted........... just..to..impatient