SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

I shall test very soon if you can wait

Edit: too much to test. I trust your plan DW. Green light!

Question: Where is the settler from Lyons for?
Remark: Don't forget to assign the forest tiles to Paris BFC. I guess you want to chop into wealth into forge.

:goodjob:
 
The settler from Lyons is for the island between Dij and Orleans.

That forest would be the issue of ~20 turns later when we want to chop a wonder. As I said before, all the improvements on the forest tiles are just pre-improvements. Buffy will automatically cancel the worker job 1 turn before chopping a forest.
 
Pretty much went as planned

Turn Log

Spoiler :

Turn 114, 25 BC: You have discovered Monotheism!
Turn 114, 25 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 114, 25 BC: Dijon has been founded.
Turn 114, 25 BC: You have trained a Spy in Lyons. Work has now begun on a Warrior.
Turn 114, 25 BC: The borders of Tours have expanded!
Turn 114, 25 BC: Judaism has spread in Lyons.

Turn 115, 1 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Tours. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 116, 25 AD: The borders of Lyons have expanded!

Turn 117, 50 AD: You have trained a Worker in Marseilles. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 118, 75 AD: Amiens has been founded.
Turn 118, 75 AD: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 118, 75 AD: The borders of Orleans have expanded!
Turn 118, 75 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Avignon. Work has now begun on a Warrior.
Turn 118, 75 AD: The borders of Dijon have expanded!

Turn 119, 100 AD: You have trained a Settler in Orleans. Work has now begun on Jewish Missionary.

Turn 120, 125 AD: Judaism has spread in Avignon.

Turn 121, 150 AD: Lyons has grown to size 7.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Rheims will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Rheims can hurry Warrior for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow, 12ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 42 turns.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Tours has grown to size 6.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Tours can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 28ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 41 turns.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Marseilles can hurry Worker for 2⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 33 turns.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Avignon can hurry Warrior for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow, 5ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 21 turns.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Brennus will trade Iron, Pig
Turn 121, 150 AD: Your Chariot 1 (Orleans) has destroyed a Worker!
Turn 121, 150 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 121, 150 AD: Orleans will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Rheims will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Chartres will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Avignon will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 121, 150 AD: You have trained a Worker in Marseilles. Work has now begun on a Warrior.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Nabu-rimanni (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 122, 175 AD: Orleans has grown to size 8.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Orleans can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 30ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 47 turns.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Lyons will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Lyons will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Rheims will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Tours can hurry Settler for 3⇴ with 5ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 40 turns.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Chartres has grown to size 5.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Avignon has grown to size 4.
Turn 122, 175 AD: The borders of Amiens are about to expand.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Judaism has spread in Chartres.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Judaism has spread in Paris.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Lyons will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Rheims will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Marseilles will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Chartres will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Grenoble will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Dijon will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 122, 175 AD: You have discovered Civil Service!
Turn 122, 175 AD: You have trained a Settler in Tours. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 122, 175 AD: The borders of Amiens have expanded!

Turn 123, 200 AD: Lyons can hurry Settler for 3⇴ with 17ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 25 turns.
Turn 123, 200 AD: Rheims has grown to size 5.
Turn 123, 200 AD: Marseilles has grown to size 3.
Turn 123, 200 AD: Chartres has grown to size 6.
Turn 123, 200 AD: Avignon can hurry Lighthouse for 2⇴ with 2ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 19 turns.
Turn 123, 200 AD: Grenoble has grown to size 3.
Turn 123, 200 AD: Dijon has grown to size 2.
Turn 123, 200 AD: Brennus has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 123, 200 AD: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 123, 200 AD: You have discovered a source of Iron near Rouen!
Turn 123, 200 AD: Espionage Mission undertaken successfully!
Turn 123, 200 AD: Upon completing the mission the Spy 1 (Lyons) has returned safely to Paris.


Report

This prey was easy.

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0008-3.jpg



IW was stolen successfully, focus EP on Ram instead. As you can see, Brennus is still 11 turns to complete Calendar, this number is not stable, I saw 9 a couple turns ago.

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0009-3.jpg



Iron locations. 2 of them can be connected in short time. One in Rouen and 1 in 14th city, settler is ready in Tours.

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0013-3.jpg



Egypt land

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0010-4.jpg



There are actually 2 barbarian workers, don't know why they have not continued on roading east

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0011-3.jpg



Ram has Literature, we can give up TGL now.

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0012-3.jpg



Test game is updated, just a few modifications from previous save.

sossos is UP.

Regarding the format of PPP, we have passed the stage of expansion. Worker micro and tile management are less important now so that the rough directions are enough. Your plan could be more simple and concise than mine. What to produce in each city still deserves attentions. Raise the potential issues before working on your plan.
 

Attachments

Well done!

I'm guessing we might want to churn out a few more warriors before actually connecting Iron. Then, grabbing a few swords (?) to make a run at the 3 barb cities or wait for Maces?
 
We will have Construction soon as well. Catas plus some chariots are also enough to capture the barbarian cities. Not very sure construction or MC next.

Hope to see your plan tomorrow, sossos.:)

BTW, chart is 6 turns from popping the culture border, so 1 barbarian city can be crossed.:D
 
Nice set Duckweed. And quick :cool:

Brennus keeps spamming missionaries :lol:

You are delaying the settling of North city on purpose it seems.

Do barb city automatically flip when our culture is inside? If yes it could be worth making a culture type building in Rouen to flip the gem city as well.

I vote for MC next.
 
Phoenix rising's power is going up stiffly on turn 130. They are taking Brennus.
 
Great turn set.:goodjob:

And that free worker is nice.:D


@soundjata

No need to worry about PR. They probably have less cities, probably playing Mylene style. Problem with that approach is that small empire can't absorb all those new cities. It is an approach for fast conquest where you win with units in strike. Problem is getting to back on feet after that and reaching Future Tech. They'll have to raze cities to keep their economy running.
 
@all ducks

Please quack-quack for your thoughts and I'll combine them into my initial plan and test run tonight.
 
soundjata said:
You are delaying the settling of North city on purpose it seems.

Did you mean the settler north of Orleans. It just arrived. However, you are right that it was my intention, we aim to do the civic switch of Burea + OR in 1 turn, therefore, our empire can not be bigger than 12 cities. 1 turn of anarchy costs us a few hundreds yields now.

Do barb city automatically flip when our culture is inside? If yes it could be worth making a culture type building in Rouen to flip the gem city as well.

I'm not very sure whether it follows the same rule as AI city, where it's RNG based and allows 1 revolt without flipping. Gre will build lib next and it is going to take a while to be able to effective. Our forces might be faster.

I vote for MC next.
Click to expand...

I agree. Colossus is still available, with so many seafoods and island cities now, the hammers can be paid back in less than 10 turns. Even we failed, we get double cash from the hammers invested.

I'm confident to say that our opening is close to optimal. Only settling on the PH tile as what kaku did can give a faster opening, but their capital will be weaker in the long term. As you can see, our culture increment now is faster than others, which means more cities and/or more culture buildings = stronger empire. Techwise, unless other teams got Alpha from trade or bulb the CS, our date is close to the fastest possible. From the culture chart, PR and US clearly entered anarchy after T140, which was either due to civic change or religious conversion while we did it on T123 and before.
 
sossos said:
@all ducks

Please quack-quack for your thoughts and I'll combine them into my initial plan and test run tonight.
Click to expand...

I have not run any test further so that I can't offer specific advices. What I'd suggest is trying to run a test to MC+Construction 1st and then raise the issues that you feel might be in debate.

Your set will be focus on stabilizing the economy still and do a little preparation for war, such as a few barracks in front cities.
 
Duckweed said:
I'm confident to say that our opening is close to optimal. Only settling on the PH tile as what kaku did can give a faster opening, but their capital will be weaker in the long term. As you can see, our culture increment now is faster than others, which means more cities and/or more culture buildings = stronger empire. Techwise, unless other teams got Alpha from trade or bulb the CS, our date is close to the fastest possible. From the culture chart, PR and US clearly entered anarchy after T140, which was either due to civic change or religious conversion while we did it on T123 and before.
Click to expand...

Time will tell, in a game of chess - even the simplest of moves greatly changes the outcome :)
Our early scouting was pretty abysmal for one.
Effectively weighing the ratio of settlers to workers makes a big difference as well.
Regardless, we are doing well for this barren :) land.

~~~

Barb cities follow the same mechanisms for cultural revolt. They're only easier to revolt since they usually don't generate culture.

The next big techs:
Construction/Machinery/Engineering (war)
MC (hammers)
Paper (beakers)
Calendar (:))
...
further down the line:
Banking (gold)
Astronomy (obvious reasons)

Do we have any consensus on how we'd like to go about getting these done?
 
Except scouting, where do you think we can improve given the current map knowledge?

Unless there are more AIs which can be contacted before Optics (I think it's very low chance due to the natural map claimed by kcd_swede and the low tech rate that Brennus and Ram have shown), I don't see what we could lose from not sending WBs to scout earlier in this game. We settled those islands in the fastest way.

Calendar can be traded in ~10 turns for sure. Engineering is not necessary for the war with Brennus without LBs. We might get it from other continents. Veteran macemans should be enough to deal with Ram even for LBs.

Duckweed said:
I have not run any test further so that I can't offer specific advices. What I'd suggest is trying to run a test to MC+Construction 1st and then raise the issues that you feel might be in debate.

Your set will be focus on stabilizing the economy still and do a little preparation for war, such as a few barracks in front cities.
Click to expand...
 
It's not always what you know now.

For example, sossos argued a lot for 4 warriors instead of 2 Chariots. We played conservatively, but if we had gone for warriors, we'd have no issue with barbs and more MP. Of course, we spent less on upkeep (but we could have built fewer warriors then); or we could have gotten the wrong end of barbs.

Since Brennus is such an incapable techer, stealing his workers would not have been bad - but then we'd lose his free missionaries. I'd still take 5~6 early workers over 10 missionaries.

Completion time of libraries is difficult to weigh it. Same thing with faster Academy, etc.

Balance of farms vs cottages? Earlier traderoutes with both AIs (note, we didn't OB with Ramesses for a long time) means they also have more gold to expand (more cities, more commerce).

Basically, I'd rather not rule out our opening as near to optimal this early on - there are a lot of things we didn't even consider.
 
kossin said:
It's not always what you know now.

For example, sossos argued a lot for 4 warriors instead of 2 Chariots. We played conservatively, but if we had gone for warriors, we'd have no issue with barbs and more MP. Of course, we spent less on upkeep (but we could have built fewer warriors then); or we could have gotten the wrong end of barbs.

I won't consider this as something to improve. Barbarian issue is RNG based and we should go for a safer way. That says I'd choose the same way even play again.

Since Brennus is such an incapable techer, stealing his workers would not have been bad - but then we'd lose his free missionaries. I'd still take 5~6 early workers over 10 missionaries.

This would be a bad choice IMO. His city is far away so that the workers are going to take a long time to come back. Note that we only used ~4 workers for a long time, so that those workers won't help much. We not only lose those free missionaries, but also lose the early religious buildings and some free happiness, and trade route income for ~20 turns. Conversion earlier also had advantage.

Completion time of libraries is difficult to weigh it. Same thing with faster Academy, etc.

If it's difficult to weigh it, then it's not something better, at least not considerable better.;)

Balance of farms vs cottages? Earlier traderoutes with both AIs (note, we didn't OB with Ramesses for a long time) means they also have more gold to expand (more cities, more commerce).

Don't think economy is a factor of AI's expansion, it's the personality of AI and the available land which determine their expansion. Brennus has more cities even he is close to broken. It's good to see them be backward, easy to kill.

Basically, I'd rather not rule out our opening as near to optimal this early on - there are a lot of things we didn't even consider.
Click to expand...

There might be something to improve after we can see other threads, but none of above.

For now, the only thing I spot is that settling on the PH to include the wheat + 5 FPs will give a faster opening and a stronger capital before T150.
 
General rule 1: cottage the river tiles and farm the non-river tiles. cottage capitol tiles.

General rule 2: the water tiles and the irrigated plains does not worth one warrior for the happiness. Change citizen to GS to control the growth at the last pop.

General rule 3: build wealth unless it's whipping turn or the turn to get the warrior out for happiness.

General rule 4: Prioritize missionaries. Ensure that the religion is spread to the city at the same turn when whipping/chopping the buildings.

Question 1: what's the purpose of spy here? scouting?

Question 2: How to get 2 lengendary cities? Have we decided to use spies? If not, we need to choose two cities and prioritize culture buildings there.



T123:
Revolt first.
Cherbourg is founded at 1SW of the North tip. Here's a trade-off between 1 more tree and 1 more coastal tile. 1 more tree can help the city to muture(6f1h33c=52c) earlier by 12 turns, which will be surpassed by 1 more coastal tile(2c) in 300 turns. build granary rather than light house as 5f>2f.
The galley may move to Cherbourg to defend the north. (I removed the babarian galley here)



T124: prefer researching MC

chartres train a warrior instead of courthouse to gain hammers after the forges is whipped.
Orleans train and whip missionaries for Cherbourg. Should I whip galley here? In the extreme case, our galley may be defeated.
Rheims build wealth for 1 turn and change 2 citizens to 2 scientists to control the growth.

T125: the hammer chaopped goes to Gre for the lighthouse
settler whipped at Lyon
lighthourse whipped at Avignon
Tours build wealth

T126: Gre starts a warrior
Avignon overflows to WB
workers start to build the road to the babarian city near Tours
Chartes start to train and whip a missionary
Orleans overflows to a new missionary then a warrior. 2 scientists are needed to control the happiness

T127: the hammer chopped goes to Paris to complete the monastary
poitiers founded
Mars: change 2 citizens to 2 scientists to control the growth
Avigon, start a library (should start a missionary here and earlier)

T128: Rouen: whip the lighthouse (may push out if avigon whip earlier and share 1 tile to Rouen)
Orleans: return FP to Lyons
Mars: train a warrior
Paris: start another monastary

T129: start to research MC
30 hammers to Paris to complete the monastary and 30 hammers to Mars for a warrior moved to Rheims

T130: Tours: start to build and whip barracks.
Paris: train one missionaries. (this may be prioritized over monastary, need to consider tomorrow)

No chance to get the barbarian city in the test game as it's K.O in one turn. Yet it's possible in the real game.

MC discovered at T131 and construction may be at T135.
 

Attachments

Nice to see your plan Sossos :)

The intention in Paris is to not chop the forests but prechop only until MC is online.

We want to keep the chops for wonder building.

Duckweed said:
all the improvements on the forest tiles are just pre-improvements. Buffy will automatically cancel the worker job 1 turn before chopping a forest.
Click to expand...
 
@jata

I'm OK with this. The light house/monastaries does not worth the chopping. But what wonders shall we build at Capitol in short term?
 
@Kossin

If we need Salon and overseas trade, the UoS might be a mid-term target. Anyway, it doesn't change the decision to keep those forests in my turns.
I still consider to chop 1 tree for the light house at Gre. I need do some calculation when I have time.
 
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